chanster

The Digital Bits is dead on right about this. VHS to DVD quality improvement is a no brainer for almost everyone and a big reason for sales, DVD to HD-DVD is most certainly NOT a no-brainer. There are some improvements (for those with the right setup) but it isn't the gigantic leap forward.

moocher

OK. If backward compatability is SOOOOO important, why then did all these J6P's go out and buy a DVD player that would not play their VHS tapes?? They have to do some sort of A/V switching right now in order to use both!!

Once again, I repeat, it is not a big deal. DVD was not backward compatable with VHS. CD was not backward compatable with cassettes. Only one current game system was backward compatable with its predecessor. Prior to PS2, none were. It is not as big a deal as you guys are making it.

The big deal will be the cost of the players and the disks. If HD-DVD offers more than just a slightly better picture (i.e exclusive content, better audio, smaller size disks/more portability, or something else we haven't thought of yet, etc.) and Apex signs on with their $60 player - people will buy it. Otherwise, it will be a niche - backward compatible or not.

MHO .

chanster

Like I said earlier, the advancement from DVD to VHS was so great, people did not care about backwards compatibility. However, the gains realized by HD-DVD, for 99.95% of the population won't be enough for them to chuck their DVDs.

Corky Roxbury

Ok guys don't flame but, I would much rather have Hd-dvd be a niche format, but would where studios support it, I have four HDTV's and over $20,000 in equipment, and I currently have 2 d-vhs players, so I might not be the norm. But people saying thier older films will not benefit much from HD, obiovously have not been watching HD, I have seen mobing I HD cable which bitrate is low compared to D-vhs and they look leaps and bounds above their dvd counterpart. I am so ready for HD-DVD, that I have starting selling off any of my dvd's that I have already seen in HD, just because I cannot go back to watching the DVD.

But on the other hand for the format to work it has to best D-VHS in every way, the bitrate has to be much higher than dvhs for videophiles to switch and we need at least 7.1 surround sound.

DVD's for me have been an inetrim media leading up to the coveted 1080p optical disc.

Cardinal Fang

I knew I agreed with your point, I just couldn't put my finger on why. This set of arguments sealed the deal, though.

philo

Just a hunch, but maybe the reason the average user was willing to switch from VHS to DVD despite the lack of backwards compatibility is because many of them didn't have large VHS collections to begin with. I think most probably rented VHS and very few actually used their VCRs for recording. There's also the relative ease of multiple connections, with most using coax for their VCR and composite for their DVD player.

These new players will offer more than just a better picture. Blu-Ray for instance is supposed to allow PVR like functionality and the ability to record HD content. Certainly an added attraction for those who want the convenience of saving content.

Judremy

Other than improved video quality and more space on the disc, what does HD-DVD offer that DVD doesn't?

DVD vs VHS was a big deal:

Jump to any time/scene without a wait.
Extras easily accessible.
Multiple language/commentary tracks.
etc.


Tell me what HD-DVD will do that DVD doesn't OTHER THAN the disc quality. That is what people are saying and that is why it will fail without backwards compatibility.

Oh, and moocher. Gameboy Color & Advance have been able to play the previous formats so you are wrong on that too.

Erik68

How about putting a 3 movie trilogy on the same disc? How about a disc that is protected from being scratched? Blu-Ray will be the future and it will soon be all the studios will use. DVD will eventually die.

Wait until everyone has that high def TV, no one will want to watch anything on the odl DVD format.

I have over 200 VHS tapes, I don't watch them anymore. I have over 250 DVD's, when HD-DVD is out, and I have my high def TV, I won't likely watch them anymore.

Of course, not all movies will be released in a new format, so, I may have to watch 5% of them. Who is also to say there won't be any backwards compatible players? That is an assinie statement to make since no one can know what any company is planning.

moocher

Judremy, "wrong about that too". Sounds as though you discount my entire argument yet you said almost exactly what I did. That is - without some major improvement other than picture quality, HDDVD will be a niche. I agree. (Chanster also quotes me yet I agree with his point as well.)

Where we differ is that you think backward compatability will overcome that. I don't. I think only a low price will - not backward compatability. I say that because it hasn't mattered in virtually any other launch of a new electronic device - DVD included. (and it certainly didn't help S-VHS VCRs.) We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

PS- Oh, and sorry I didn't include handheld systems in my comparison. I don't keep up with those ...

philo

A list of manufacturers supporting Blu-Ray,

Hitachi, Ltd.
LG Electronics Inc.
Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd.
Pioneer Corporation
Royal Philips Electronics
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
Sharp Corporation
Sony Corporation
Thomson Multimedia

Manufacturers supporting Advanced Optical Disc, the other blue laser format,

NEC
Toshiba

I was interested in reading the original editorial from videobusiness.com. I registered on their site but couldn't find the article. From everything I've read, the manufacturers of Blu-Ray intend on making the format backwards compatible.

am1001

Hi Philo

To find the article - look at the following link

http://www.videobusiness.com/comment...=5386&catID=11

cheers

HiDef_Now

I've read over fifty articles on HD-DVD, this is the first one that even mentioned that the format may not be backward compatible.
As a previous poster mentioned, those manufacturers behind blu-ray are proposing backward compatability.

No one is forcing anybody to buy another copy of a movie they already have; however, I know I will be picking up HD versions of the LOTR, Gladiator, Saving Private Ryan, etc. I'm assuming those who are against HD DVD have never seen a well done HD movie on HBO, Showtime, ABC, CBS, etc.

It amazes me that people will spend $4k + on DVDs, yet they
won't spend $1,500 or less for a widescreen HDTV to watch them
in all their glory.

Corky Roxbury

hddvd will not be a niche format for ever, it may be for the first 3-5 years, but once most tv programming is HD, noone will want to watch DVD, they will want HDDVD. I for one cannot wait and am thinking about get the sony blu-ray machine within a few months.

moocher

Maybe, but as the article said, one of the primary reasons DVD took off is the low price of the Asian players. If players were still in the $300-$400 range, I doubt DVD would be nearly as big as it is now. The manufacturers are trying to prevent the low priced Asian players this time around so I think mass acceptance of HDDVD will take a long time if it ever happens.

All we have to do is look at the LD and S-VHS markets to confirm this theory. Like the HDDVD scenario, one of the only advantages of LD and S-VHS to VHS was a superior picture (LD had other advantages). Because players never came down to an "affordable" level for J6P, they remained niche items and never gained mass acceptance even though S-VHS had backward compatability to standard VHS. Why would HDDVD be any different? VHS proved that people will settle for inferior picture/sound quality when better formats are available at a higher price level.

Price, price, price. That alone will determine whether HDDVD takes hold IMHO.

Manco

I think backward compatability is an issue. Comparing moving up from vhs to dvd and moving from dvd to hd-dvd is silly.

People moving from vhs to dvd weren't expecting to have the ability to play their vhs collections on a dvd player since they are obviously two completely different formats but not being able to play their dvd collection on a hd-dvd player thats basically the same format just alittle better is going to turn people off.

moocher

Manco, I'm sorry but your argument makes very little sense. You seem to be arguing that what people are thinking is "I will base my decision to upgrade to a new format on whether the manufacturers could have incorporated backward compatibility into the machine. If they could have I will protest by not buying it." That is more silly than what I am saying.

History has shown that people do not think this way. Backward compatibility has meant nothing in the introduction of almost every new format of video/audio/gaming. It is almost never done and people have never seemed to care. Now all of a sudden everybody thinks that people will start to base their upgrade decisions on it. That just doesn't make any sense to me.

Think about it. This is a device to be used in someone's home entertainment system. Most of the people who might buy it almost assuredly already own a DVD player. Why would they care about a second box in their system that could do the same thing? It might make a difference when someone goes to replace their broken DVD player but I doubt it would be much of an issue. Stand alone DVD players are cheap and other combo devices like CD/Cassette players and VCR/DVD players have never sold very well anyway.

SleepyW

Great...like we need full screen, widescreen, and HD formats to confuse people that can't even distinguish between 2 formats.

Change is inevitable. Like K said in MIB, "I'll have to buy the White Album again." There will always be a new format and people will constantly have to buy new things. With CD, how much better can digital stereo audio sound? The only changes to that format would be storing more on a disc, adding features, or adding surround sound functionality. Otherwise, the quality has nearly peaked.

Viedo throws a whole new twist into the mix. In addition to the sound quality, you have video quality, which is where HD comes in. But until the common population all have widescreen HD TVs and surround sound home theaters, the product has a limited audience. My dad is not purchasing any more DVDs until HD-DVD comes out. He is defintiely in the minority. I personally have no use for HD-DVD, especially if it's not backwards compatible. I only have so much space on my shelves, and I don't need a VCR, Laserdisc, DVD, HD-DVD, CD, tuner, cassette deck, turntable, satellite receiver, etc. all stacked on my entertainment center.

I finally sold off my laserdisc player and removed my cassette deck...if I have to buy a whole new unit to play HD-DVDs, then I pass. Simple as that.

jarofclay73

Consider this scenario:

DVD player breaks. You can buy another DVD player to play your 200 DVDs for about $100. Or you can buy an HD-DVD player, and you have to buy new discs, for $1000.

This isn't only a convenience issue. If HD-DVD isn't backward compatible, then they're not going to get out enough units in the market to create a critical mass (and keep prices down).

That's how the Playstation won the war of video games. They sold their hardware units for as cheap as possible (remember when you could trade in your Nintendo?). They made their money in the GAMES. They knew if they just get their units out, they would automatically sell games. With the PS2, their backwards-compatibility is keeping them in the market, even with BETTER TECHNOLOGY like the X-Box.

History says that better technology doesn't always win the format wars. 8-tracks were better than cassettes (you could select the exact track you want on 8-tracks while you have you rewind and fast-forward cassettes). Vinyl has a much wider dynamic range than CDs. DCCs also had a wider dynamic range than MiniDiscs. Beta had a much better picture than VHS. So, even if HD-DVD is technically BETTER than DVDs, it needs to make sure that they sell enough units to create a critical mass that would ensure its survival.

Most people don't replace their VCRs with DVD players anyway, so backwards compatibility for DVDs and VCRs are a moot point (unless you only buy pre-recorded movies). Most people still need VCRs if only to tape TV shows (still cheaper than buying TiVo).

I'm not really sure I would buy an HD-DVD player ONLY for playing movies with high-definition video.

jarofclay73

But, you may never get to that low price without backwards compatibility. We can still hope for the $60 Chinese player that will FORCE the industry to make cheaper players, but I don't think backwards compatibility will HURT. Is it necessary? Maybe, maybe not. I'd rather err on the safe side--put it in. Anyway, from the posts here, it looks likem most manufacturers will. It still could be a niche product even with backwards compatibility. But we won't know unless we try.

I think it certainly helped the PS2 stay afloat with the X-Box and Gamecube although the PS2 has inferior technology.

shanester

B4 I go gaga over hd-dvd I would like to see a specific example of them taking an exisitng dvd like say LOTR which most of use here own and all agree is one of the best looking transfers out there..

Upgrade it to HD and let's see if we REALLY notice a significant difference otherwise what's the point??.This could turn out to be another scam like the "Superbit" craze which was suppose to give us better video/audio and as we all know now there are lots of non SB titles that look much better imo..

..We should all procede with caution b4 jumping on the band wagon that's all i'm sayin'..capice??

jarofclay73

I agree. If HD-DVD stays a niche product, then one of two things could happen:

1) Each movie will cost $30 or somewhere around Criterion prices.

2) Video quality could be sacrificed (i.e. taken from an inferior source or no digital remastering) to cover costs.

Plus, unless a digital master is for a movie, then I don't see how watching it in hi-def would help anyway. Digital filming is not commonplace yet. I would say mostly the newer movies would benefit most from hi-def. Catalog titles could be suspect.

shanester

Excellent points!..

HiDef_Now

There's a flaw in your logic. Believe it or not, MOST people have not purchased 200 DVDs for their player. The number is more than likely less than 20 per DVD player sold. Also, when DVD players were first introduced, they were also over $1k per player with very few movies to choose from. Yet they managed to sell and eventually surpass VHS sales.

HD-DVD players won't take off until there is a substainial base of HDTV sets in use. That's step one. Step two is value........affordable price with quality. Again, if you've seen
a well done HD movie (Gladiator, Shrek, Spider Man, etc.) on a
quality HDTV, you would know that there is a very noticeable
difference. Will J6P notice? I could care less.

moocher

All these arguments about the PS2 "staying afloat" due to backward compatability are a little mis-leading.

PS2 is not the market leader because of backward compatability. PS2 came out a year before the Xbox and GC. They are leading the pack due to that year head start and the reputation of the PSX which already had a wide lead over the competition (also obviously not due to any backward compatability) even though it too had inferior hardware.

Backward compatability probably played a role in the PS2 success but not a very big one and it certainly was not needed to "keep PS2 afloat".

Dammit

http://www.geocities.com/sircash13/Gladiator.html

Keep in mind that those grabs are recordings from broadcast HD (HBO I believe). HD-DVD could theoritcally look even better, possibly much better judging by how much better a standard dvd looks vs. a 480p broadcast.

Edit: I watched two "HD" movies on ABC this weekend (E.T. and The Green Mile) that I suspected were simply upconverted and not from a real HD source. They looked exactly like what DVD looks like when played on my HTPC and scaled to HD resolutions.