Hello all:

I figured I'd post this here, because I am amongst fellow bargain hunters, not to mention movie fanatics.

Here's a question for you:

I am in the market for a well first and foremost decoder... When I say decoder here's what I want:

1. DTS ES (new DTS I guess it's better than regular old DTS?)

2. Dolby Digital 5.1 (The new name for AC-3?)

3. THX

4. Isn't there a new 6.1 Dolby Digital now, or is that what DTS ES is?

So basically I am looking for an all in one A/V receiver that can do all of this. Do you know, is there a separate decoder that will decode all of these things and an amp to actually power the sound?

Anyways, do you know of anything out there with this capability and is it at least decently priced? Say like $1000 or less???

Let me know.

Thanks in advance.

Some of the very high end receivers have some of the 6 channel DD and DTS stuff, the only lower priced one I am familiar with is the Outlaw Audio receiver. The 6.1 on the Outlaw is not a licensed DTS ES or DD-EX, but their own version, which is supposed to be pretty good. It is also not THX certified, however it only costs about 600. Check here: http://www.outlawaudio.com/receiver.html

Dave

The only receiver I can think of that meets all your spec's including THX-Ultra Is the Denon 5800. Unfortunately it not in the price range you are looking for.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by rmount:
The only receiver I can think of that meets all your spec's including THX-Ultra Is the Denon 5800. Unfortunately it not in the price range you are looking for.<HR>

You are right about the AVR-5800. I currently use it as a pre-amp. There is currently NOTHING in the $1000 price range that does all you are looking for. You need to raise your price, or lower your expectations.

What about the Onkyo TX-DS787. It's about $800 and supports DTS ES and is THX Select certified. And I believe it does 7.1. I got mine 2 weeks ago and love it... Between it and my brand new Toshiba 40H80 I'm in DTS ES, anamorphic DVD heaven. Next is a progressive scan player.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by airplanedan:
What about the Onkyo TX-DS787. It's about $800 and supports DTS ES and is THX Select certified. And I believe it does 7.1. I got mine 2 weeks ago and love it... Between it and my brand new Toshiba 40H80 I'm in DTS ES, anamorphic DVD heaven. Next is a progressive scan player.<HR>

I guess you're right about the Onkyo to some extent. I was talking about THX Ultra and DTS-ES Discrete though.

Hey Gittins,

You could also try to look into the new Denon-3801. It does DTS-ES Descrete and has 7.1 output, however it is 'just' not THX certified. But I bought this receiver after some looking around myself for around 10.000 Danish Kroner It should run around $800-$900 in the US.

I am really happy with this receiver for what I got...

hope this helps and good luck on your receiver search.


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Sincerly,
Gnuig
Copenhagen,Denmark

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gnuig:
Hey Gittins,

You could also try to look into the new Denon-3801. It does DTS-ES Descrete and has 7.1 output, however it is 'just' not THX certified.

<HR>

The Denon AVR-3801 is by far the best receiver on the market in this price class. I was discussing the unit with a Denon rep, and he said that the receiver would have easily passed THX Select specs, but they were trying to hit a certain price point and get it to the market quickly, so they didn't submit it for certification.

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[This message has been edited by Green Jello (edited February 02, 2001).]

quote:<HR>Originally posted by airplanedan:
What about the Onkyo TX-DS787. It's about $800 and supports DTS ES and is THX Select certified. And I believe it does 7.1. I got mine 2 weeks ago and love it... Between it and my brand new Toshiba 40H80 I'm in DTS ES, anamorphic DVD heaven. Next is a progressive scan player.<HR>

This is a good deal, for almost everything you are looking for, you will need to get a seperated 2-channel amp in addition though, to get the 7.1 channels. It runs an additional $300.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Green Jello:
The Denon AVR-3801 is by far the best receiver on the market in this price class. I was discussing the unit with a Denon rep, and he said that the receiver would have easily passed THX Select specs, but they were trying to hit a certain price point and get it to the market quickly, so they didn't submit it for certification.

I have this unit and love it. I think bang for buck it is hard to beat.
<HR>

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Michael
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Your the man now dawg!
I'm Fresh Like A Can of Picante
The 8th Warrior of the Other Forum

Wow look at all those DVD's
And those are cool CD's
Do not click me.

First off, thanks a bunch for all of the uh excellent and interesting responses. I really do appreciate it.

Second, in analyzing your responses, it appears as though we're really looking at 3 different receivers here...

I'll recap:


1. Denon AVR-3801 - According to the Denon website it's only 6.1 but it says, "• 7.1 external wide bandwidth (100 kHz) input for future multi-channel formats (such as DVD-Audio)". Does this mean that it actually will do 7.1 if you buy some add on equipment or something? Also, the thing is a new release.
Also does DTS ES DISCREET...

Price: About $800

2. Onkyo TX-DS787 Doesn't do 7.1 either, but has preouts if you want to upgrade. Is THX Select (Not Ultra, whatever that means) Certified, and also does appear to do DTS ES (pretty sure not discreet) and infact may do Surround EX instead of DTS ES... This is where I begin to become confused....

Price: About $800


QUESTIONS:

1. What is the major difference between DTS ES and Surround EX?

2. What is the major difference between DTS ES and DTS ES Discreet?

3. What is the major audible difference between THX Select Certified and THX Ultra Certified?

4. What is the difference between THX sound and 7.1 channel upgradeabe sound? In other words, if I buy the upgrade to make receiver do 7.1 channels, will it sound exactly like THX or will it sound better or worse?

And one stumper question for you true audiophile bargain hunters....

Is there a little mini system, you know one with a dvd player, speakers, and receiver all in one package, fairly small in size usually silver in color (like the ONKYO LSV900 - you could easily set the thing on top of the tube).... is there one of those all-in-one systems, except that is progressive scan, with DTS ES, THX, possibly 7.1, and the speakers are A-1 quality??? Probably not, I'm sure that's got to be wishful thinking....


As for my opinions at this time, before analyzing incoming feedback:

I am leaning toward the Onkyo TX-DS787 simply due to THX ability, and the rest of the package seems to be good, however, DTS ES Discreet and the possibility that 7.1 could sound just as good as THX (still wondering which DVDs will actually use 7.1 capability) could make me easily convert to the newer denon avr-3801.

If a little mini system existed that actually had progressive scan with DTS ES, and 7.1 or THX, with BOSE Acoustimass or better quality sound, i would probably sell all of my existing components and just buy that.

Then I hook it up to either a plasma 45" or better screen if i could find one for under $3000 or better yet just get a great projector at www.projectorcentral.com


Your thoughts?


Also, what do you think about that Toshiba xd6200 twin tray progressive scan DVD for about $550?

Or the cool looking, silver JVC XVD723GD
for about $450?

Take care,

Gittins

Gittins, I have seen the JVC porscan DVD player you are talking about and what it can and can't do and quite frankly the color separation and the playback it does is just terrible. It playsback movies in a washed-out format. I went with the Mits dd6000 over the Toshiba 6200 because the colors where richer and more vibrant and also, the 6200's sharpness was just not there.

I demo'd these on the the TV I bought (Mits WS65907 - may I add that this is an awesome TV!!!).

In any event, you won't get a better picture that this player, unless of course you go with the SONY 9000es, but then of course your picture will very soft. At a $1500 price tag I do not see it worth it.

Good luck.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by gittins:

1. What is the major difference between DTS ES and Surround EX?

2. What is the major difference between DTS ES and DTS ES Discreet?

3. What is the major audible difference between THX Select Certified and THX Ultra Certified?

4. What is the difference between THX sound and 7.1 channel upgradeabe sound? In other words, if I buy the upgrade to make receiver do 7.1 channels, will it sound exactly like THX or will it sound better or worse?

<HR>

1. Dolby Surround EX and DTS-ES are basically just the two brand versions of the same encoding scheme. They are both 6.1 channel formats with the matrixed surround back channel. The DTS version will be better for the same reasons that it is better in the 5.1 channel versions. DTS carries a higher bit rate and therefore better sound quality.

2. DTS-ES Discrete is where DTS took things one step further. It contains the surround back channel as it's own discrete channel rather than simply matrixed into the left and right rears like in the standard EX/ES formats. The is the best consumer surround format available today, but it is currently found on only four DVD movies: The Haunting, Se7en, Gladiator and Chicken Run. Here is a great review on the format by Widescreen Review:
http://www.dtsonline.com/consumer/dts-es.pdf

3. THX Ultra and Select are simply the two different sets of quality standard certifications by Lucasfilm Ltd. THX Ultra (formerly standard THX) are standards for equipment for rooms that are around 3000 cubic feet in size volume. THX Select is the new format that has slightly lesser standards for rooms that are 2000 cubic feet and less. Here is the THX FAQ page on the differences:

4. THX is NOT a surround encoding or format. On top of being a set of quality standards, there is also a THX "mode" on all THX certified receivers and pre-amps. This mode simply overlays some enhancements on top of Dolby Pro-Logic, Dolby Digital and DTS. It manages and enhances the bass, timbre matches the speakers, rolls off the excess highs and de-correlates the surrounds. These enhancements are mainly designed for the old Pro-Logic surround mixes, and modern 5.1 Dolby Digital and DTS mixes do not benefit that much from it.

There are a few issues that seem to be confusing you here on these new surround formats. First, there is no such thing currently as 7.1 surround. THX Surround EX and DTS-ES are 6.1 surround schemes, but many people get confused because manufacturers recommend 2 speakers for the surround back channel, even though it is just a single mono source. This gives you 8 speakers, or 7.1, and thus the confusion. The external 7.1 inputs on the back of the receivers are simply an attempt to further future-proof themselves against new formats down the line. Second, Surround EX was a joint development by both Dolby labs and THX. Lucasfilm THX handles all the home cinema distribution rights, and this is why you won't find a receiver that decodes it unless it is THX certified. (Pretty sneaky on their part, huh?) The Denon AVR-3801 will still decode THX Surround EX, but it simply has to call it 6.1 decoding due to the THX licensing issues.

I know that is a lot to take in and I just skimmed the surface on these answers. Let me know if there is anything further that you don't understand.

The Onkyo TX-DS787 only does 6.1 and has outputs for 7.1 It doesn't do true 7.1 and is only THX Select

The TX-DS989 does true 7.1 with the option to upgrade the firmware via your computers serial port. THis receiver is THX Ultra. The cheapest I've found it was for $2095.49.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by powaking:
The TX-DS989 does true 7.1 with the option to upgrade the firmware via your computers serial port. THis receiver is THX Ultra. The cheapest I've found it was for $2095.49.<HR>

What exactly is "true" 7.1??
There is simply no surround format with those specs. If you are referring to some sort of DSP like Logic 7 or dts Neo 6, that's one thing... but there is no (home) surround format with 7.1 discrete channels.



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DVD-O-Rama.com
DVD Reviews..with an attitude

Exterminate all rational thought

Green Jello and all:


Thank you greatly for clearing things up for me.

Especially making us all aware of the fact that 7.1 (i.e. for the most part DTS-ES Discreet) is only available on four movies.

I still am confused as to whether or not DTS-ES Discreet is actually listed on the front of any receiver.... or is this something that you will only discover by sifting through product specifications?

You are obviously a major proponent of Denon AVR-3801, however I still find myself leaning towards the Onkyo TX-DS787 due to it's THX certification, given the fact that it appears from my simple an unexhausted research that everything else about the two is the same, but then again, I will look at the specs and repost... As it is highly likely that the denon may be better internally (Ohms, frequency range, etc, etc)...

I met with some sales guys at Soundtrack (local store in Denver area) and the expert thought that Denon avr-3801 was DTS-ES Discreet due to the ability to add a center rear channel thus making it 7.1able. However, from your post, it appears that this actually still is, in fact, matrixing.

I am almost afraid to begin talking about CD Super Audio CD's which I was exposed to at Soundtrack, apparantly containing, "much more detailed information than a regular CD"... Reason why I hesitate in bringing it up, is because I am unclear on what kind of receiver will decode, process and deliver the extra information and to what kind of speakers.... According to guy at Soundtrack, all you need is the CD player capable of reading the Super Audio CD (in this case the $1500 Sony DVD/DVDAudio/CD/CD Super Audio Player) information and the receiver, like the Denon avr3800 will actually be able to utilize this super audio cd information... That's what the guy told me, I have a hard time believing it though...

Anyhow.... I am basically trying to keep my budget for 6 or 7 speakers, dvd player, receiver, and plasma,rptv or projector and cabinet to $6000.

Boston Acoustics center front and center rear (VR910) $349.95 each, BA Side channels (VR965L) $499.95 each, and BA (forgot model #) rears at $399.95 a piece brings my total so far up to $2500...

Add on a $1500 DVD with Super Audio CD, and I am at $4000. Add in the Denon AVR 3801 and I am sitting pretty at $4800, but the Acer VP110X Projector at $3000 and I'm at $7800...

Things aren't computing...

A. Lose the rear center channel at $349.00, total now down to $7400. Settle for not having Super CD Audio, thus getting the Pioneer Elite DV37 DVD player for $799, shaving off another $800, now down to $6600... Add on the sales guy recommended Yamaha DX3000 instead of the Denon avr-3801 at $2000, which totals out at $7800...

Let's do this over again...

Forget the Yamaha, insert Denon avr-3801 or Onkyo TX-DS787 now I'm back to $6600, and consider a 50-65" RPTV instead of a projector at a price of about $2000, especially since I haven't even factored in a screen for the damn projector at another grand, so now my total sits at a happy $5600.....

Which, if the amp in either the Denon or Onkyo isn't good enough, I can always add one later.


If anyone can think of a better, and I do mean better system for $5600 (and can back it up), I dare you to try.


-Gittins

Gittins,

The Denon AVR-3801 is one of the two receivers on the market that WILL do DTS-ES Discrete. The Onkyo will not. In my opinion, the abillity to do DTS-ES Discrete is worth far more than being THX Select certified. As for SACD and DVD-Audio, both of these receivers can use them because they have the external 7.1 inputs.

Green Jello:

Thanks again for the positive feedback. Now I have to wait a little while to amass funds... It's a tough decision for me as to go for either the Denon w/DTS ES Discreet, or Onkyo w/THX Select Certification. Thanks again.

One question for you though... If there is only 2 receivers that will do DTS ES Discreet currently, are there plans for more companies to start giving DTS ES Discreet ability to it's receivers?

Thanks again,

Gittins

quote:<HR>Originally posted by gittins:
If there is only 2 receivers that will do DTS ES Discreet currently, are there plans for more companies to start giving DTS ES Discreet ability to it's receivers?

Gittins<HR>

Oh, definately. DTS-ES Discrete is simply a very new format, and to date there is only the two pieces that support it. Last month at CES, there were at least 15 new receivers and pre-amps shown that will incorporate DTS-ES. Most of these will start hitting the shelves around summertime. Soon DTS-ES Discrete will be as prevolent as the original DTS. It just takes time.