What's the difference between full-range speakers and 2-way speakers. Which are better sounding and why?

------------------
DVD-ROM Forum Moderator -- (Member since 02/12/99)
> [email protected] < - > [email protected] <
>DVD-ROM Tips and Tricks< - >MyWebSite< - >MyList<

I'm just the average joe, but I don't believe that any single speaker can be truly full range, ie. 20 -20k, hence the reason there are 2-way and 3/4/5 way speakers. A grouping of speakers that can hopefully come close to producing the full range of sound that is produced in a speaker.

I have 2-ways all around, and they sound excellent, as they take care of the upper end, and the subwoofer takes care of everything under 80 (or so) Hz.

Jason, the idea behind speakers is to reproduce as flatly and faithfully what's been sent to it by the receiver's amplifier section. Bearing this in mind, full range denotes a frequency range of 20-20KHz. Most speakers suffer on their low end response to the fidelity of the audio that the receiver is asking the speakers to reproduce. If you look at the spec sheets of many 2-way speakers, their low end frequency response is in the 50-60Hz range. If you look at the full range speakers (usually have 3 or more speaker drivers to handle the different frequency range), their low end response is usually around 30Hz depending on the size of the box for the speaker itself (if you don't have enough volume, you'll never get faithful reproduction of the low end frequencies near 20Hz).

Why is the low end so important? Well, for some, it's not, but if you like to feel that thump when you're watching your DVDs, that big fat explosion, then you will most likely want to get a subwoofer to enhance the DVD viewing experience.

Is that 20-30Hz gap important if you didn't go with a subwoofer? Well, 25Hz is where alot of DVD thumpage resides, so you would be missing out on that end of the sound pool.

I'm in the midst of building a cylidrical subwoofer that will stand almost 5 feet high, and have 2 12" drivers and will be tuned to around 19Hz and have a 3dB frequency near 20Hz as well. The 3dB point is the frequency where the SPL (Sound Pressure Level) is one half of its SPL at the rest of the frequency response characteristics. If you'll notice, most frequency response specs are quote something like "50-20KHz +/- 3dB" and this is because most speakers don't have a truly flat response curve (SPL vs. frequency), but if it's relatively flat within +/- 3 dB, it's considered tolerable for the average consumer.

Why such a big enclosure for a subwoofer? Because I don't want to mess around looking for another subwoofer for another 5 years, and because I'll know how it should sound like given the number crunching and research I've done with these "sonosubs" (made out of Sonotube-like cylinders that are made to hold concrete in them - are very strong).

But I digress. If you go with 2-way speakers, their low end frequency response will be lacking and you'll most likely have to buy a decent subwoofer to get good quality sound for DVDs and music.

If you go with full range speakers, you might be happy with their performance enough to skip the subwoofer for now, but if you get serious about 5.1 DVD audio, you'll get a subwoofer later, and it'll be good to still have the full range speakers that will have most of the bass off-loaded to the subwoofer.


------------------
PatCave ;HT Pix ;Pat's DVDs

patman, that was exactly what I was looking for. Thanks a bunch.

------------------
DVD-ROM Forum Moderator -- (Member since 02/12/99)
> [email protected] < - > [email protected] <
>DVD-ROM Tips and Tricks< - >MyWebSite< - >MyList<

Glad to be of service.

Also remember that the sounds are sloping off in either direction (of a crossover frequency point), there is no "wall" per se when someone says to set their speakers as "small" so that all the low frequencies under 80-100Hz goes to the subwoofer, but 2 intersecting slopes (add up their combined SPLs and hope you don't get a big hole of sound, or a big hump of sound, neither is desirable). You want them to blend in together. Depending on what order the filter is used for the crossover, that determines the slope of the crossover (larger the slope, the more it approaches a wall-like filter, but those are rarely used).

Supposedly 80Hz and below is non-directional bass (you shouldn't be able to locate your sub if your eyes are closed while playing some music), but I'd prefer 60Hz as the cutoff point for true non-directional bass. But that's just my opinion, experience, play around if you ever get into some serious bass management.


------------------
PatCave ;HT Pix ;Pat's DVDs


[This message has been edited by Patman (edited June 28, 2000).]

Patman,

I disagree with you when you say that "...25Hz is where alot of DVD thumpage resides."

Some thoughts on this:

* very few dvds have any information below 30 Hz. Most have no significant effects below 40 Hz
* my definition of the word "thumpage" as you used it above is mid-bass (60 to 100 Hz) energy; this is where the "kick you in your chest" feeling comes from
* to me, 25 hz is nothing like thumpage; it's more like "rumblage"

Minor quibbling? That's my bag.

-S

quote:<HR>Originally posted by stevevt:
Patman,

I disagree with you when you say that "...25Hz is where alot of DVD thumpage resides."

Some thoughts on this:

* very few dvds have any information below 30 Hz. Most have no significant effects below 40 Hz
* my definition of the word "thumpage" as you used it above is mid-bass (60 to 100 Hz) energy; this is where the "kick you in your chest" feeling comes from
* to me, 25 hz is nothing like thumpage; it's more like "rumblage"

Minor quibbling? That's my bag.

-S<HR>

Well, the only quick example is the Godzilla "rumble" in Godzilla menus, there's a nice 25Hz bassline running through there. It's more of a feeling than a sound when it comes to low bass in the 20-30's, it gives you the ambience/impact of the scenes. If your speakers only go down to 50Hz, you're missing quite a lot IMHO.


------------------
PatCave ;HT Pix ;Pat's DVDs

Full range speakers are single driver speakers that try to cover the entire 20-20,000 spectrum. Think single speaker in a table top radio.

Two way speakers are designed so that the midrange and bass is reproduced by one driver (a woofer) and the high end is reproduced by another driver (a tweeter). There is a crossover in the speaker that directs the proper frequencies to the proper driver. In sub/sat speakers like the Energy Take 5, for example, the speakers do not reproduce any bass to speak of, and are limited only to midrange through one driver and highs through another. Bass below a certail frequency (100 hz in the case of the Take 5's) is reproduced by a subwoofer.

In three way speakers, bass is reproduced rough one driver (a woofer), mid frequencies another (a midrange) and highs through another (a tweeter). Again, a crossover directs the proper frequencies to the propper driver.

Two and three way speakers should provide more accurate highs and better imaging than full range speakers. As between two and three way speakers, it really comes down to speaker design.

A minor point, Jason did not say how many drivers were in the "Full Range speakers"

I have full range speakers for my left and right and 2 way for my center and surrounds. My LF/RF are 20hz - 22khz and my surrounds are 50hz - 22khz.

oh yea, my full range speakers are the NHT VT-2 with one dome tweeter, two mids and a side firing woofer.

VLAD -- if your full range speakers have tweeters, woofers and mid ranges, they are not "full range" speakers, they are three way speakers that may play 20-20 (as better speakers would). Whether a speaker is two-way, three-way, four-way, full range or whatever has nothing to do with what the speaker system's measured feequency response is -- just how many drivers and cross-over frequencies there are.

[This message has been edited by AW (edited June 29, 2000).]

The point I was making is: many people talk about the need for full range speakers for DTS and the difference it makes.

What are they talking about? They are talking about a speaker; a box with several drivers in it and you hood up the speaker wire to it.

A "full range" speaker can also mean a single driver that [i]tries[\i] to perform 20hz to 22khz. I say tries because it wont do a good job of it.

As I said in my post a minor point, but if people go to a DTS post and see "full range speakers" that is very different from a "full range speaker driver". and yes, my NHT's are considered full range, 20hz to 22khz. The number of drivers is irrelavent to the performance of the sounds range. If the speaker can do a good job at these freq's; it's full range. (More than likely it will be multi drivers.)

Basically, a speaker can be a single driver or a collection of drivers; so when Jason said a "full range speakers"; which was he speaking of?

Vlad he is look at home theater packs some of which have "full range" meaning one driver that handles 20-20K.

Jason, in these systems there is not a correct answer to which is better. Cost is so tight on the speakers that they are what they are. In fact the ones that claim 2-way are most likely using a piezo unit. This is just a buzzer that is ment to look like a tweeter. So, you see that money might have been better spent on a high quality full range. It is all about marketing with these systems. I would recommend a different approach.

Look for a deal on a reciever then go and by a promotional (sale) bookshelf speaker from Best buys or Circuit city. They are around $39 for a 6" 2 way (with a real tweeter). If you have to start with two first.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Patman:
If you go with full range speakers, you might be happy with their performance enough to skip the subwoofer for now, but if you get serious about 5.1 DVD audio, you'll get a subwoofer later, and it'll be good to still have the full range speakers that will have most of the bass off-loaded to the subwoofer. <HR>

I think I missed something:
W/a sub, what's the advantage of full range speakers w/bass management, as opposed to just bookshelfs? The potential for lower crossover frequency?