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Old 05-12-03, 06:28 PM
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Greg was working on Project K2 when these were developed (I think).

The wave guide owes some heritage to the Infinity Prelude/Overture/Reference lines also. All Harman horns/wave guides were square/rectangular up until these Infinity products. The round/elliptical wave guide was a design concept which Andrew Jones and Laurie Fincham brought to Infinity products when they come to Harman from KEF.

Tim Prenta was the Head Engineer/Manager of the Best Buy products and he is an excellent engineer.
Old 05-12-03, 06:30 PM
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Originally posted by gotapex
If you decide to go with JBL's, the 312's are a good choice over the 310's, which very few people seem to like.
... not what somebody who is waiting for his 310's to come in wants to hear. Where did you get that from? I searched all over HTF, and I read page after page of customer reviews on a few other sites. Everybody seemed to be glowing about them, and they sounded good in the store.

I'd have mine here already, but somebody in the trucking company apparently stole my speakers. J&R had to re-send them to me.
Old 05-12-03, 10:11 PM
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Could you buy the speakers with your discount, sell them new on e-bay, pocket the difference, and go and buy whatever floats your boat?

-pedagogue
Old 05-13-03, 01:54 AM
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Originally posted by CaptainMarvel
... not what somebody who is waiting for his 310's to come in wants to hear. Where did you get that from? I searched all over HTF, and I read page after page of customer reviews on a few other sites. Everybody seemed to be glowing about them, and they sounded good in the store.

I'd have mine here already, but somebody in the trucking company apparently stole my speakers. J&R had to re-send them to me.
I'm sorry about that. Honestly, whatever sounds the best to your ears is going to be the best for you. I've personally tried all 3 of them, and so have quite a few people I know. The S310's just didn't seem to have as tight bass as the S38 & S312's. I don't think I've met anyone who has auditioned all 3 and preferred the S310's over the other two.
Old 05-13-03, 09:05 AM
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I am not sure but in past Harman practice was used the 10 and the 12 will have the exact same magnet structure and the only difference is the frame and the cone/surround.

Also in general a 10" will have less cone distortion then a 12" cone of the same geometry. Port and cabinet size also will impact the bass but I think the difference is way small in blind testing.

Captain, I expect you will love these speakers.
Old 05-13-03, 09:33 AM
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Originally posted by bfrank
I am not sure but in past Harman practice was used the 10 and the 12 will have the exact same magnet structure and the only difference is the frame and the cone/surround.

Also in general a 10" will have less cone distortion then a 12" cone of the same geometry. Port and cabinet size also will impact the bass but I think the difference is way small in blind testing.

Captain, I expect you will love these speakers.
Thank you for saying that... I hate feeling unhappy about a purchase before it even gets here.

Now if UPS manages to not steal my packages like the trucking company did, everything will be great.
Old 05-13-03, 12:29 PM
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Greg was working on Project K2 when these were developed (I think).

Tim Prenta was the Head Engineer/Manager of the Best Buy products and he is an excellent engineer.
The following information is more documented INFO available to the public and in no way should detract from bfrank's (DVDTalk illustrious Moderator - ex- HK employee) memory or personal knowledge about Greg Timber - JBL Chief Development Engineer, his recollection may be correct, but the following public INFO supports my previously quoted JBL's published dba newsline.

Originally published by, the now defunct eTown.com, ...

8/23/99 JBL GOES RETRO by Brent Butterworth (Editor-in-Chief of etown.com at the time now w/Dolby Labs) ...

(article no longer on-line - copied partial excerpts without modifications)...

NEW YORK, NY, August 23,1999 -- From bowling shirts to martinis, retro is in. JBL is hoping to extend the trend with the new Northridge and Studio speaker lines. ...

According to JBL brand manager Paul Benter, "These speakers are based on the newest, critically acclaimed JBL monitors that are reference standards in the film and music industries." One speaker, the S38 from the Studio line, even borrows the horizontal configuration common to studio monitors but which is al but gone from home stereo speakers.

Bente's presentation was packed with explanations of technologies -- most sporting spiffy trademarked names -- used in the new speakers. Most important among these technologies is clearly the Elliptical Oblate Spheroid (EOS) waveguide. It's basically a tweeter waveguide designed for smooth response across a wide listening area, which JBL says reduces the "sweet spot" effect common to stereo speakers. EOS originated in JBL's LSR studio monitor line.

The Northridge line

My faves from the Northridge line were the indoor/outdoor version of the N24 (the $124.99 N24AW), which I felt exhibited greater vocal clarity than any other speaker in the line, and the ND310, which played loud and deep and nearly equaled the clarity of the N24aW. Why did the little guy sound so good? A chat with Northridge series designer Matt Nelson revealed that the N24 and N24AW use a significantly different crossover design -- first-order (6 dB/octave), as compared to second-order(12 dB/octave) in the other Northridge speakers.

The Studio line

I happened to wander into the Studio line demo room before the event began and was stunned by what I saw -- drivers with an attention-grabbing, rust-colored coating mounted on slick-looking bezels inbeefy cabinets that reminded me of dorm-room refrigerators. Unfortunately, the room in which I heard the Studio line was extremely live and strangely shaped, so I couldn't much trust what I heard. (We've already requested a set for a formal review.)

For what it's worth, the S26 two-way ($199.99/each), with its 6-inch woofer and 1-inch tweeter, seemed to produce the best imaging and soundstaging in this room. JBL also demo'd the S38 three-way ($299.99/each) mentioned above, the S310 floorstanding three-way ($379.99/each) and the top-of-the-line S412P ($849.99/each).

The latter features a 1-inch tweeter, a 4-inch midrange, a 6-inch woofer and a 12-inch powered subwoofer driven by an internal 150-watt amplifier. Unlike most powered towers, it has no crossover or subwoofer level controls, only a control that blends in the signal from the line-level LFE (Low Frequency Effects) input. According to chief development engineer Greg Timbers, JBL wanted to keep the setup as simple as possible for the consumer and considered the extra controls unnecessary. (I happen to agree.)

Strangely enough, there is no provision for bywiring in the Studio line. Timbers says JBL decided to put money into better drivers and cosmetics instead of into the extra binding posts needed for biwiring.

The most interesting speaker in the Studio line has to be the S-Center, which, at $299.99/each, is the least expensive three-way center-channel speaker I recall seeing. The S-Center sports a 1-inch tweeter mounted above a 4-inch midrange, both flanked by 5-1/4-inch woofers. The advantage of this design is that its horizontal off-axis response is much smoother than that of the usual two-way, woofer-tweeter-woofer center speaker.
So, just based on public records, ...

Greg Timbers, JBL Chief Development Engineer is documented in the following JBL Studio Series Product News Release ...

• 19 August 1999 - NEW JBL STUDIO SERIES HOME-THEATER AND STEREO LOUDSPEAKERS BRING STUDIO-QUALITY SOUND TO CONSUMERS

• 6 January 2000 - JBL EXPANDS AWARD-WINNING STUDIO SERIES LOUDSPEAKER LINE AT CES 2000

• August 23,1999 - eTown.com "JBL GOES RETRO" article by Brent Butterworth (copied above) which includes personal discussion and quotes from Greg Timber.

---- • Also established: The JBL Northridge Series speaker designer = Matt Nelson

I personally believe that the JBL N- & S-Series speaker line was specifically developed to simplify the product line offerings as documented by TWICE on-line article) ...

... JBL is scaling back its assortment to 20 SKUs from 43, ...
At the same time, JBL wants to recapture some of the consumer market by creating two affordable priced speaker lines that would deliver greater accuracy and "soundfield consistency" in roughly the same price ranges as their predecessors - hence, they were designed using the same leading-edge technologies and innovative engineering utilized in JBL Professional Products' reference-standard recording studio monitors, to bring true studio-quality sound into the home in a wide range of models that set new price/performance benchmarks in their respective categories.

As I wrote before, based on subjective, objective and blind-tests reviews, the JBL N- and S-Series speakers have accomplished the goals established by their respective speaker design engineer's.

The JBL S-Series S38 & S412P received CEA Innovations 2000 Design and Engineering Award Winner because it utilized many of the same leading-edge testing and design technologies included in JBL's Professional Series LSR Linear Spatial Reference Studio Monitors like the ...

JBL LSR28P

1999 TEC Awards

Studio Monitor Technology - JBL LSR28P (THX Approved)

So, were they designed for BestBuy???

I don't think so, ... Best Buy is only JBL's sole national retailer (ref. TWICE article) and the N- & S-Series speakers were designed so we consumer's can afford near studio quality dynamic sound.

June 2001 - JBL S38* Stereophile Speaker Review by Robert J. Reina ...

. . . there were two areas in which the JBL S38 performed better than any speaker under $2000/pair I've ever heard:

First was its ability to play at extremely loud volumes without coloration or strain.

Second, the S38 had the widest dynamic contrasts of any budget speaker I've heard. Just in case you were beginning to think that it's only a rock speaker, I found the S38's low- and high-level dynamic performance on dramatic orchestral works to be jaw-dropping. In Taberna, Part II of Carl Orff's Carmina Burana (Robert Shaw, Atlanta Symphony, Telarc CD-80056), is very difficult to reproduce convincingly, with its massed shouting chorus and cacophonous battery of percussion. Small, inexpensive speakers usually compress, congest, or crap out completely. But the sense of ease with which the S38 reproduced this bombastic music reminded me more of the sound of my Alón V Mk.IIs ($5500/pair) and Alón Circes ($12,000/pair) than it did of any other affordable speaker I've heard.

The sound of Stravinsky's The Firebird (Mercury Living Presence/Classic SR 90226) summed up the strengths and weaknesses of this intriguing speaker. The explosive dynamics and ease with which the S38 reproduced the orchestra in full cry was much more reminiscent of the performance of many large floorstanding speakers I've heard-throughout this densely orchestrated work, it was very easy to follow each individual instrument on the S38s' open and airy soundstage.
Click the link above to read the entire JBL S38 Speaker Review @ Stereophile website.

So, for those perusing these posts, don't let the BestBuy chain B&M store stop you from considering one of the better values in consumer speakers in the market, add JBL N- or S-Series to your audition list.

Maybe you'll agree with the following reviewers that positively reviewed the JBL N- & S-Series speakers subjectively and objectively.

Brent Butterworth (eTown)
Daniel Kumin (Sound&Vision Mag.)
Tom Nousaine (Sound&Vision Mag.)
Mark Fleischmann (eTown)
Clint Walker (Home Theater Mag.)
Michael Mikesell (Amazon.com)
Wayne Garcia (Amazon.com)
Robert J. Reina (Stereophile)

If you think about it, they have unlimited budgets and already auditioned more speakers than we have during our life time!

Phil
No - I don't work for JBL, I'm Lead, Technical Services (SR. E/M CAD Operator) @ KLA-Tencor, Corp. (employed since 1978) and retired semi-pro (Jazz - keyboard) musician.

Last edited by Phil I; 05-13-03 at 12:38 PM.
Old 05-13-03, 12:44 PM
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So, for those perusing these posts, don't let the BestBuy chain B&M store stop you from considering one of the better values in consumer speakers in the market, add JBL N- or S-Series to your audition list.
Alot of info thanks.

It is unfortunate that JBL and others choose to associate themselves with Best Buy soley on the basis of how many boxes they can move.

Not a single Best Buy store I have ever been in has a demo area properly set up and able to demo a variety of speakers with the same demo material on the same electronics.

I can overlook their poorly stocked stores and less than helpful sales associates. I cannot ever recommend to any of my family or friends that they purchase audio or video equipment in that environment.
Old 05-13-03, 02:56 PM
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I cannot ever recommend to any of my family or friends that they purchase audio or video equipment in that environment.
I actually don't either.

Except for those that work part/full time @ BestBuy, I generally recommend seeing, feeling, looking and playing with the JBL's of their choice @ BB, ... using BB canned music, or better yet, from their own familiar Music CD / DVD and then purchasing them online from an authorized JBL vendor if they like what they heard.

Like you said, not the best auditioning environment, but at least the consumer can hear them prior to purchasing them.

In reality, that's a very common scenario based on the email's I've received for the last 3-years from budget conscience consumers. Many commented that the BB audition convinced them that these speakers sound very good and then how much better it sounded in their HT/family room once they received & REF Calibrated it.

I personally purchased six JBL S26's & S-Center online (w/o auditioning) for an AVG. $104.84 for each speaker, including S/H.

FYI:
JBL S26 - MSRP US$: $399.99 (pair)
JBL S-Center - MSRP US$: $299.99

Phil
Old 05-13-03, 03:31 PM
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Greg is not a manager type. He is the most senior engineer on the JBL consumer side and is very famous in Japan. The pro group has a totally different design team and was in a different building. Greg is the public name for JBL consumer and was in the team but the manager of the project was Tim Prenta.

Marketing is a big part of the industry and much of what you have quoted in a carefully crafted story.

The first elliptical wave guide use at harman was in 1993, it was released to the public in 1994 in the first generation Compositions Prelude system. It was later use in the Reference, Overture and CC lines of product.

Side note- why do you have etown stuff saved? Brent gave us some of out best reviews after we left Harman on etown. I saw him at CES and he is now working for the Robb reports new mag.

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Old 05-13-03, 03:50 PM
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Prelude PFR- 1994



Overture 2- 1995




Reference 1 -1995



CC-3 - 1995
The elliptical wave guide was derived from research of Andrew Jones (and Laurie Fincham). This research was done at KEF for the development for the Uni-Q driver development.

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Old 05-13-03, 04:51 PM
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I am not sure why you want to challenge what I said.
Sorry if you think this was a challenge, ... that was not my intent and I apologize if you thought so!

I obviously don't have the inside INFO and like most consumer's that does research on a specific hobby, all I have access to is the INFO that was released publicly by the JBL Public Relations / Marketing Dept. as linked above.

Thanks for clarifying and providing Greg Timber's background and reputation, ... that's really interesting stuff!!!

I have no agenda here and no reason to mislead you. I am supporting you here.
I appreciate that and thank you for providing some really impressive personal credentials when you were with Infinity!!!

... why do you have etown stuff saved?
I copied eTown "JBL GOES RETRO" article webpage (used 'select' and print selected option) when they published @ their website around 1999. What Brent Butterworth wrote was never published in any magazine that I know of and I just kept this copy with my JBL NSP1's owner manual & speaker reviews binder.

All the JBL N- & S-Series eTown test reports are linked @ HK, ... their JBL "Review" website, but not Butterworth's "RETRO" article.

Brent gave us some of out best reviews after we left Harman on etown.
Yep! I've read those.

I saw him at CES and he is now working for the Robb reports new mag.
Interesting. Last I read he joined Dolby As Directors of Tech Marketing (9/2000)

So, your HT Speakers must be Infinity's!?!?!??

Anyway, thanks for the INFO and update.

Phil

Last edited by bfrank; 05-14-03 at 09:03 AM.
Old 05-13-03, 06:10 PM
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I have lots of stuff. Right now I have 3- Infinity Overture 1 in front, 2- QPS-1 in the rears with two Infinity Modulus Subs.

In my stereo room I have Elite TZF-700's

But I will have these soon

WWW.TADAUDIO.COM/HOME


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Old 05-13-03, 06:19 PM
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If you are a fan of Gregs check out the Project K2 which is very big success in Japan and starting to come to the US.

http://www.jbl.com/home/products/series.asp?SerId=K2
Old 05-14-03, 09:04 AM
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For those that have been following this I have done some editing to this thread.

Phil
Old 05-24-03, 02:00 AM
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I decided to go with the JBL package. At the prices I got, it just was impossible to turn it down. Here's what I ended up with, including prices.

JBL S312II (pair) $215.66
JBL SCENTERII $95.46
JBL S36II (pair) $186.44

I am eager to get this all set up and running. The 312's are already in my possesion, now I am just waiting on the 36's and the Center to show up from accomodations. Should be a little over a week.

I have decided that based on living in a medium sized apartment, and the 312's each having a 12" woofer, that I may not need a subwoofer. I could just turn the subwoofer off on my reciever, routing all the LFE into my fronts. Do you people think I will be allright going this route? If not, I can always pick up a new sub.

My second question pertains to my receiver. I am currently using a Yamaha RX-V630 with my Polk RM6600 setup. Will I be ok sticking with this receiver, or should I upgrade to something with more power such as the Yamaha HTR-5590? I want these new speakers "the JBL's" to perform well, and am worried that 75 watts per channel may not cut it. I certainly do not want my receiver to overheat, or to have clipping occur. Would you guys recomend that I upgrade to the HTR-5590, giving me 100 watts per channel? Money is an issue, but if I need to sell my old gear to pick up a new reciever, I would certainly be willing. Otherwise, a bedroom setup would not be bad at all.

Any feedback would be appreciated. I cannot wait to get everthing up and running, and am confident that this new set-up will be a huge improvement over my Polk's, especially when it comes to music.

Brett
Old 05-24-03, 02:35 AM
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Originally posted by brhow

I have decided that based on living in a medium sized apartment, and the 312's each having a 12" woofer, that I may not need a subwoofer. I could just turn the subwoofer off on my reciever, routing all the LFE into my fronts. Do you people think I will be allright going this route? If not, I can always pick up a new sub.

My second question pertains to my receiver. I am currently using a Yamaha RX-V630 with my Polk RM6600 setup. Will I be ok sticking with this receiver, or should I upgrade to something with more power such as the Yamaha HTR-5590? I want these new speakers "the JBL's" to perform well, and am worried that 75 watts per channel may not cut it. I certainly do not want my receiver to overheat, or to have clipping occur. Would you guys recomend that I upgrade to the HTR-5590, giving me 100 watts per channel? Money is an issue, but if I need to sell my old gear to pick up a new reciever, I would certainly be willing. Otherwise, a bedroom setup would not be bad at all.

Brett
You most definately want to have a powered sub! The speakers you bought will do a nice job overall but a decent powered sub will do much better and take some stress off your receiver by it not needing to produce the LFE/Sub frequencies that require the most power.

As for the receiver itself I am not familiar with the your model but considering your speakers are pretty efficient 75 WPC should be more then enough power for your speakers.
Old 05-24-03, 02:27 PM
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Originally posted by brhow

I have decided that based on living in a medium sized apartment, and the 312's each having a 12" woofer, that I may not need a subwoofer. I could just turn the subwoofer off on my reciever, routing all the LFE into my fronts. Do you people think I will be allright going this route? If not, I can always pick up a new sub.
The popular misconception is that if you have a larger driver (in this case a 12" woof) you can run your speakers as 'large' (verbage depending on your processor's set-up) and still get the same results as a powered sub. Not so.
Amplification, enclosure size, etc. have so much more to do with it.
Do yourself a favor and get a seperate sub, and you'll hear alot more of the soundtrack that way

Cheers,
Erik the Red
Old 05-24-03, 06:08 PM
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Originally posted by DVD_O_Rama
The popular misconception is that if you have a larger driver (in this case a 12" woof) you can run your speakers as 'large' (verbage depending on your processor's set-up) and still get the same results as a powered sub. Not so.
Amplification, enclosure size, etc. have so much more to do with it.
Do yourself a favor and get a seperate sub, and you'll hear alot more of the soundtrack that way

Cheers,
Erik the Red
As example I have JBL CF-150's (15" three-ways) for all six surround speakers yet I still have two 350 watt 15" powered subs! For a Home Theater it is essential to have a good powered sub to get the full impact of films on DVD.
Old 05-31-03, 10:57 AM
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Well I would disagree with this sub issue. Its all about the how low your front speakers play. If your fonts are 3dB down at 30Hz and your sub is 3dB down at 30Hz then the only reason to add a sub is to free you towers from playing these low freqs. I have heard many systems that would never need a sub. In fact the best systems I have heard did not have a sub. But they were extremly expensive.
Old 05-31-03, 04:17 PM
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Originally posted by Frank S
As example I have JBL CF-150's (15" three-ways) for all six surround speakers yet I still have two 350 watt 15" powered subs! For a Home Theater it is essential to have a good powered sub to get the full impact of films on DVD.
- got enough bass?
Old 06-04-03, 10:55 PM
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Bfrank Your speaker designs are beautiful, lets hope they take off really well. How long until you develop a center and surrounds? Maybe you are tageting only the Stereophiles, but there are a lot of us that have to cope with that WAF factor and I think the Model-1 could do that. My Sequel II's didn't pass the test So I am looking for new Wife approved HT speakers will probably go with the Onix Rockets cause they are Pretty.
Old 06-05-03, 02:52 AM
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Originally posted by TAR
- got enough bass?
Juuuuust barely!

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