Copying DVDs to VHS is legal, right?
06-06-02, 09:58 AM
#1
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
Copying DVDs to VHS is legal, right?
I was on another board where one guy had asked how to copy DVDs to VHS and he was looking for a "chipped" DVD player. Another user had said that it was illegal to copy from DVD to VHS.
I am fairly confident that you can legally copy to VHS, but, legally speaking, you can't sell or give the VHS tape to somebody else.
I know that there are connectors that you can use to get around macrovision, are these still commercially available?
Of course, the other question is why would you want to copy to VHS.
I am fairly confident that you can legally copy to VHS, but, legally speaking, you can't sell or give the VHS tape to somebody else.
I know that there are connectors that you can use to get around macrovision, are these still commercially available?
Of course, the other question is why would you want to copy to VHS.
06-06-02, 12:33 PM
#2
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Nope, not legal at all. When you buy any media, whether it's a cassette tape, CD, CD-ROM, VHS, DVD, etc. you are not purchasing the music, program or movie that's been recorded, you're buying a personal license to listen to, use or watch what's on it. Different media come with different licenses, and the licenses stipulate what you can or can't do with it.
Cars never had record players, so the license for LP's stipulated you could make a cassette copy of it for your vehicle. Some software licenses (not all) allow you to make a backup copy of the CD-ROM or disks in case something goes wrong with the original media.
If you ask the MPAA they will tell you that you do not have the right to make a copy of a DVD or VHS tape. That's why Macrovision exists. Sure, there are ways to get around it, and not all equipment actually pays attention to it, but it still is illegal.
As for why you'd want to backup a DVD to VHS, the only good reason I've ever been able to come up with is this: By purchasing a DVD you've purchased the license to view that film in your home, not the movie itself, right? If something should happen to that DVD to make it non-functional, you still own the license to view the film, but are now unable to because of damaged media. You can buy another copy of the DVD, which means buying another license for a film you already have 1 good license for already. If you backed it up to VHS though, you still have a legal license for it, and you don't have to buy another copy of the film. The only problem with that is the MPAA claims the license for DVD and VHS are exclusive and media specific. The license for a DVD movie only licenses you to watch that film on DVD, and the license for a film on VHS only allows you to watch the film on VHS. So even then, you're 'backup' copy is still illegal.
Read the *WARNING* screens on DVDs, they usually tell you what you can do with the DVD. If you have foreign DVD's you may or may not be able to show them on a deep sea oil rig.
Cars never had record players, so the license for LP's stipulated you could make a cassette copy of it for your vehicle. Some software licenses (not all) allow you to make a backup copy of the CD-ROM or disks in case something goes wrong with the original media.
If you ask the MPAA they will tell you that you do not have the right to make a copy of a DVD or VHS tape. That's why Macrovision exists. Sure, there are ways to get around it, and not all equipment actually pays attention to it, but it still is illegal.
As for why you'd want to backup a DVD to VHS, the only good reason I've ever been able to come up with is this: By purchasing a DVD you've purchased the license to view that film in your home, not the movie itself, right? If something should happen to that DVD to make it non-functional, you still own the license to view the film, but are now unable to because of damaged media. You can buy another copy of the DVD, which means buying another license for a film you already have 1 good license for already. If you backed it up to VHS though, you still have a legal license for it, and you don't have to buy another copy of the film. The only problem with that is the MPAA claims the license for DVD and VHS are exclusive and media specific. The license for a DVD movie only licenses you to watch that film on DVD, and the license for a film on VHS only allows you to watch the film on VHS. So even then, you're 'backup' copy is still illegal.
Read the *WARNING* screens on DVDs, they usually tell you what you can do with the DVD. If you have foreign DVD's you may or may not be able to show them on a deep sea oil rig.
06-06-02, 04:30 PM
#3
DVD Talk Legend
Originally posted by renaldow
Nope, not legal at all. When you buy any media, whether it's a cassette tape, CD, CD-ROM, VHS, DVD, etc. you are not purchasing the music, program or movie that's been recorded, you're buying a personal license to listen to, use or watch what's on it. Different media come with different licenses, and the licenses stipulate what you can or can't do with it.
Nope, not legal at all. When you buy any media, whether it's a cassette tape, CD, CD-ROM, VHS, DVD, etc. you are not purchasing the music, program or movie that's been recorded, you're buying a personal license to listen to, use or watch what's on it. Different media come with different licenses, and the licenses stipulate what you can or can't do with it.
06-07-02, 08:59 AM
#4
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Copying DVDs to VHS is legal, right?
Originally posted by Heat
Of course, the other question is why would you want to copy to VHS.
Of course, the other question is why would you want to copy to VHS.
06-07-02, 09:13 AM
#5
DVD Talk Legend
Originally posted by Mr. Salty
Not according to the principal of fair use. If what you're saying was true then no one could use a VCR to record an over-the-air TV broadcast, because the copyright notice at the end of the show specifically stipulates "no unauthorized copying." They also couldn't record a CD to cassette to listen to in their car.
Not according to the principal of fair use. If what you're saying was true then no one could use a VCR to record an over-the-air TV broadcast, because the copyright notice at the end of the show specifically stipulates "no unauthorized copying." They also couldn't record a CD to cassette to listen to in their car.
06-07-02, 11:00 AM
#6
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No, you cannot copy them. I have been in a discussion about this and it boils down to that fact that you are taking profits away from the company becuase either that movie is out on VHS already, or it could be out. Therefore it is illegal, period.
06-07-02, 11:12 AM
#7
Moderator
As I understand it it's illegal to copy anything that has some sort of copy protection (e.g. Macrovision), regardless of whether it's for your own personal use or not.
Of course, I can see no practical purpose in "backing up" my DVDs to VHS.
Of course, I can see no practical purpose in "backing up" my DVDs to VHS.
06-07-02, 12:01 PM
#8
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Originally posted by Mr. Salty
Not according to the principal of fair use. If what you're saying was true then no one could use a VCR to record an over-the-air TV broadcast, because the copyright notice at the end of the show specifically stipulates "no unauthorized copying." They also couldn't record a CD to cassette to listen to in their car.
Not according to the principal of fair use. If what you're saying was true then no one could use a VCR to record an over-the-air TV broadcast, because the copyright notice at the end of the show specifically stipulates "no unauthorized copying." They also couldn't record a CD to cassette to listen to in their car.
Recording a TV show on VCR or DVR does not constitute copying, it is creating a recording of a public broadcast, which is legal for both TV and radio. Should you then make a 'backup' of that recording, that would be copying, and depending on what you chose to do with that copy would then decide whether or not what you were doing was legal. If that copy went into your Babylon 5 archive, it would be legal. If it became part of a collection of Babylon 5 shows you planned on distributing or selling at a Babylon 5 convention, then it would be illegal.
And as for recording a CD to cassette to play in your car, that falls under the old LP license (so far); but unfortunately since many cars do have CD players in them now you'll find that the RIAA has been pushing to make that illegal as well.
Fair use, a term that gets tossed around quite a bit in talk of copyright laws is very misunderstood. All 'Fair Use' really allows anyone to do is replicate or replay a small portion of an intellectual work for demonstration purposes. Fair use allows you to quote from a book that has a no-reproduction license, for instance, but it does not allow you to make a backup copy of that book for archival purposes. Playing 30 seconds from a DVD as part of a public review of it would probably be considered fair use, recording it to VHS probably would not.
06-07-02, 03:56 PM
#9
DVD Talk Legend
Talk with the MPAA and read their informative postings on the subject matter if you do not like my answer. They'll set you straight on it.
you'll find that the RIAA has been pushing to make that illegal as well.
06-07-02, 04:18 PM
#10
DVD Talk Legend
Originally posted by renaldow
Fair use, a term that gets tossed around quite a bit in talk of copyright laws is very misunderstood. All 'Fair Use' really allows anyone to do is replicate or replay a small portion of an intellectual work for demonstration purposes. Fair use allows you to quote from a book that has a no-reproduction license, for instance, but it does not allow you to make a backup copy of that book for archival purposes.
Fair use, a term that gets tossed around quite a bit in talk of copyright laws is very misunderstood. All 'Fair Use' really allows anyone to do is replicate or replay a small portion of an intellectual work for demonstration purposes. Fair use allows you to quote from a book that has a no-reproduction license, for instance, but it does not allow you to make a backup copy of that book for archival purposes.
What does the "fair use privilege" mean?
Several important limitations to the author's exclusive rights exist under copyright law to encourage citizens to fully and openly exchange and build upon information to increase the public's knowledge. The most important limitation to the author's exclusive rights is the public's right to exercise a "fair use privilege" regarding copyrighted works. Fair use refers to an individual's right to use copyrighted material in a reasonable manner without the consent of copyright owner. In Sony v. Universal City Studios; the U.S. Supreme Court stated, "any individual may reproduce a copyrighted work for a 'fair use;' the copyright owner does not possess the exclusive right to such a use." The fair use privilege was originally a judicially created doctrine, but has subsequently been codified by the copyright statute.
Several important limitations to the author's exclusive rights exist under copyright law to encourage citizens to fully and openly exchange and build upon information to increase the public's knowledge. The most important limitation to the author's exclusive rights is the public's right to exercise a "fair use privilege" regarding copyrighted works. Fair use refers to an individual's right to use copyrighted material in a reasonable manner without the consent of copyright owner. In Sony v. Universal City Studios; the U.S. Supreme Court stated, "any individual may reproduce a copyrighted work for a 'fair use;' the copyright owner does not possess the exclusive right to such a use." The fair use privilege was originally a judicially created doctrine, but has subsequently been codified by the copyright statute.
Do I have the right to make a copy of my CD for my own personal use?
Yes. The fair use doctrine allows an individual to make a copy of their lawfully obtained copyrighted work for their own personal use. Allowing people to make a copy of copyrighted music for their personal use provides for enhanced consumer convenience through legitimate and lawful copying. It can also enlarge the exploitable market for the rights holders. The fair use privilege's personal use right is what allows an individual to make a backup copy of their computer software as an essential defense against future media failure.
Personal use also permits music fans to make "mix tapes" or compilations of their favorite songs from their own personal music collection or the radio for their own personal enjoyment in a more convenient format, or "format shifting." Another example of acceptable personal use copying of a copyrighted work is "time-shifting," or the recording of a copyrighted program to enjoy at a later and more convenient time.
As new media present new ways for people to enjoy music, the public's fair use rights accompany them into the electronic frontier. Now, music fans have the right and ability to copy their own music collection onto their own computer storage device and create customized play lists for their own personal use and enjoyment of their music.
It is important to note that while consumers have the right to listen to their own music collection for their own personal use, they do not have the right, however, to make their music collections available to others by uploading them onto the Internet for public downloading.
Yes. The fair use doctrine allows an individual to make a copy of their lawfully obtained copyrighted work for their own personal use. Allowing people to make a copy of copyrighted music for their personal use provides for enhanced consumer convenience through legitimate and lawful copying. It can also enlarge the exploitable market for the rights holders. The fair use privilege's personal use right is what allows an individual to make a backup copy of their computer software as an essential defense against future media failure.
Personal use also permits music fans to make "mix tapes" or compilations of their favorite songs from their own personal music collection or the radio for their own personal enjoyment in a more convenient format, or "format shifting." Another example of acceptable personal use copying of a copyrighted work is "time-shifting," or the recording of a copyrighted program to enjoy at a later and more convenient time.
As new media present new ways for people to enjoy music, the public's fair use rights accompany them into the electronic frontier. Now, music fans have the right and ability to copy their own music collection onto their own computer storage device and create customized play lists for their own personal use and enjoyment of their music.
It is important to note that while consumers have the right to listen to their own music collection for their own personal use, they do not have the right, however, to make their music collections available to others by uploading them onto the Internet for public downloading.
But if you want to transfer a DVD to tape for your kids to watch in their bedroom so they don't damage the original, it would fall under fair use.
06-07-02, 09:25 PM
#11
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Originally posted by Mr. Salty
The MPAA and the RIAA are both lobbying groups who would do away with recording completely, for any reason, if they had their way. So you'll forgive me if I don't take their word for what is and is not allowed.
The MPAA and the RIAA are both lobbying groups who would do away with recording completely, for any reason, if they had their way. So you'll forgive me if I don't take their word for what is and is not allowed.
If you don't want to listen to what they say, that's your choice, but as they are the ones selling you that license that they wrote, it seems foolish not to want to believe what they say on the subject matter.
The quotes on fair use are nifty, but you really want to update them with the DMCA, as it puts digital goods in a whole 'nother realm. But then, I suppose the DMCA is just a law written by lobbying groups, so I'll just forgive you now if you don't take it as a real law.
06-08-02, 12:19 AM
#13
DVD Talk Legend
Originally posted by renaldow
The MPAA is the one who wrote the license on that DVD you want to copy. To brush them off as a 'lobby group' is kind of funny, seeing as they also happen to control every major studio's movie publishing in North America, Europe, and parts of Asia.
If you don't want to listen to what they say, that's your choice, but as they are the ones selling you that license that they wrote, it seems foolish not to want to believe what they say on the subject matter.
The quotes on fair use are nifty, but you really want to update them with the DMCA, as it puts digital goods in a whole 'nother realm. But then, I suppose the DMCA is just a law written by lobbying groups, so I'll just forgive you now if you don't take it as a real law.
The MPAA is the one who wrote the license on that DVD you want to copy. To brush them off as a 'lobby group' is kind of funny, seeing as they also happen to control every major studio's movie publishing in North America, Europe, and parts of Asia.
If you don't want to listen to what they say, that's your choice, but as they are the ones selling you that license that they wrote, it seems foolish not to want to believe what they say on the subject matter.
The quotes on fair use are nifty, but you really want to update them with the DMCA, as it puts digital goods in a whole 'nother realm. But then, I suppose the DMCA is just a law written by lobbying groups, so I'll just forgive you now if you don't take it as a real law.
So I would make a copy of my Dvd's to any other media I wanted while retaining them in my possession and using them to maintain my abililty to watch them in case of damage to my original Dvd. I would feel comfortable doing this while having members of the MPAA over for dinner to see this because even if they could win a case like this. They lose far more in the public airing of the case.
When was the last case like this filed anyway? never?
can anyone point to any case law where archival copies were declared illegal in a digital media case?
06-08-02, 03:03 AM
#14
DVD Talk Legend
Originally posted by renaldow
The MPAA is the one who wrote the license on that DVD you want to copy. To brush them off as a 'lobby group' is kind of funny, seeing as they also happen to control every major studio's movie publishing in North America, Europe, and parts of Asia.
If you don't want to listen to what they say, that's your choice, but as they are the ones selling you that license that they wrote, it seems foolish not to want to believe what they say on the subject matter.
The quotes on fair use are nifty, but you really want to update them with the DMCA, as it puts digital goods in a whole 'nother realm. But then, I suppose the DMCA is just a law written by lobbying groups, so I'll just forgive you now if you don't take it as a real law.
The MPAA is the one who wrote the license on that DVD you want to copy. To brush them off as a 'lobby group' is kind of funny, seeing as they also happen to control every major studio's movie publishing in North America, Europe, and parts of Asia.
If you don't want to listen to what they say, that's your choice, but as they are the ones selling you that license that they wrote, it seems foolish not to want to believe what they say on the subject matter.
The quotes on fair use are nifty, but you really want to update them with the DMCA, as it puts digital goods in a whole 'nother realm. But then, I suppose the DMCA is just a law written by lobbying groups, so I'll just forgive you now if you don't take it as a real law.
You can be as patronizing as you want, and the content providers can write whatever licenses they want. Statutory copyright law, as well as decades of Supreme Court rulings, has something else to say entirely. They specifically prevent copyright owners from overextending their reach, even with respect to the DMCA.
When a license reads "no unauthorized copying," it does not apply to "fair use" copying, because the courts and Congress have decided that "fair use" copying is authorized, whether the copyright holders like it or not.
The RIAA found this out in 1999 when it sued Diamond Multimedia, maker of the Diamond Rio MP3 player, to try to prevent the player from being sold. The RIAA lost the suit in a unanimous decision.
Again, from Stanford University, this time specifically addressing DMCA and the CSS anti-copying encryption used on DVD (emphases mine):
CSS prevents all unauthorized copying - which is substantially more than copyright law and §1201(b) prohibit. The DMCA does not prohibit "unauthorized copying" although the statute's drafters considered that particular phrase during deliberations. Preventing all unauthorized copying would stretch authors' rights to such an extreme that it would unhinge copyright's delicate balance.
By its refusal to prohibit "unauthorized copying" in the statute, language that would have extended copyright protection beyond its traditional limitations, Congress expressed its intent that society have the ability to continue to make noninfringing unauthorized uses of works. The statute's carefully chosen wording in §1201(b), thus protecting "the rights of a copyright holder" reflects this clear intention. Since copyright holders do not have the right to prevent fair use copying, Congress chose not prohibit devices that enable people to exercise those fair use rights.
By its refusal to prohibit "unauthorized copying" in the statute, language that would have extended copyright protection beyond its traditional limitations, Congress expressed its intent that society have the ability to continue to make noninfringing unauthorized uses of works. The statute's carefully chosen wording in §1201(b), thus protecting "the rights of a copyright holder" reflects this clear intention. Since copyright holders do not have the right to prevent fair use copying, Congress chose not prohibit devices that enable people to exercise those fair use rights.
This is why it's legal for Sima and other companies to make anti-Macrovision devices, and why you can walk into your friendly neighborhood Best Buy and buy one. It's also why you can buy CD burners, VCRs, MP3 players, and audio cassette recorders.
Last edited by Mr. Salty; 06-09-02 at 09:50 PM.
06-12-02, 12:10 AM
#15
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Originally posted by Kevlar
They can have my copied dvds when they pry them from my cold, dead fingers....
-K
They can have my copied dvds when they pry them from my cold, dead fingers....
-K
*munch* *munch*
Sugar ... in water ...
06-17-02, 09:18 AM
#16
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I can't understand why anybody would want to degrade the surperior visual, and audio quality of DVD being dubbed onto the inferior VHS tape.
If that's the case, then why won't he just purchase the prerecorded movie on VHS in the first place, if that's what he wants?
This really doesn't make no sense to me as to why would anyone would want to do this!
If that's the case, then why won't he just purchase the prerecorded movie on VHS in the first place, if that's what he wants?
This really doesn't make no sense to me as to why would anyone would want to do this!
06-17-02, 05:05 PM
#17
DVD Talk Legend
Originally posted by SINGLE104
I can't understand why anybody would want to degrade the surperior visual, and audio quality of DVD being dubbed onto the inferior VHS tape.
If that's the case, then why won't he just purchase the prerecorded movie on VHS in the first place, if that's what he wants?
This really doesn't make no sense to me as to why would anyone would want to do this!
I can't understand why anybody would want to degrade the surperior visual, and audio quality of DVD being dubbed onto the inferior VHS tape.
If that's the case, then why won't he just purchase the prerecorded movie on VHS in the first place, if that's what he wants?
This really doesn't make no sense to me as to why would anyone would want to do this!
Young children love to watch the same movie over and over and over again. They also don't care a whole lot about picture and sound quality. My friend has three such children. My friend also has several Disney DVDs that are out of print and will be for the next 10 years. He doesn't want to risk his children damaging them, so he dubs them to VHS so they have their own copies to watch as often as they'd like. The original DVDs are kept away safe.
