Jim Shooter, RIP (1951-2025)
#1
Thread Starter
DVD Talk Hero
Jim Shooter, RIP (1951-2025)
https://bleedingcool.com/comics/jim-...d-aged-73-rip/
One of the most interesting and divisive figures in the industry. He probably saved not only Marvel Comics, but the entire industry in the 1970s and 1980s, but also made a ton of enemies in the process.
One of the most interesting and divisive figures in the industry. He probably saved not only Marvel Comics, but the entire industry in the 1970s and 1980s, but also made a ton of enemies in the process.
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#2
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Re: Jim Shooter, RIP (1951-2025)
He did so much, but to me he’ll always be the teenager writing Legion of Superheroes stories.
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#3
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Jim Shooter, RIP (1951-2025)
An important figure in the history of comics who probably doesn't get enough credit. Though apparently he was miserable to work under at Marvel, which ultimately affected the comics.
#5
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Jim Shooter, RIP (1951-2025)
A true legend in the field. I loved reading any interview with him. His memories seemed sharp as a tack and he never minced words, good or bad.
#6
DVD Talk Godfather
Re: Jim Shooter, RIP (1951-2025)
His blog is a fascinating read (not sure how long it'll remain up at this point). Obviously things are written from his point of view/recollection
JimShooter.com ? Writer. Creator. Large mammal.
I'm still fascinated by this story of how Hank Pym's pivotal Avengers issue which ultimately defined him for decades as a character came down to miscommunication:
http://jimshooter.com/2011/03/hank-p...e-beater.html/
Or this story of how he altered the ending to the original Dark Phoenix saga:
http://jimshooter.com/2011/06/origin...nix-saga.html/
#8
DVD Talk Godfather
Re: Jim Shooter, RIP (1951-2025)
This reddit poster, cycloswashalfright, wrote this writeup on it:
https://www.reddit.com/r/xmen/commen...eturn_of_jean/
The story of how she got brought back in Fantastic Four is pretty interesting. Mark Gruenwald wanted to do an "X-Men West Coast" book with the O5, but Louise Simonson, the editor of Uncanny X-Men and someone aligned with Claremont's vision, blocked it. Bob Layton I believe pitched an O5 reunion because X-Men was so hot as a property. Jim Shooter liked the idea of another X-Men book, but there was a dispute over the status of Jean. Claremont was adamantly against bringing her back, and Dazzler was seen as an option. In her own series, she leaves with Beast with the idea that she would be the 5th member of X-Factor. But Jim Shooter was still open to the idea of Jean Grey returning despite being the one who insisted she died.
Shooter was willing to bring her back, but only if she was absolutely, and completely absolved of anything that happened while she was Phoenix.
Kurt Busiek, who was not yet the famous writer he is today, made a game of it. He famously hated that Jean died and has always been fond of Silver Age X-Men, and so, operating under Jim Shooter's rules, he told Mark Gruenwald about a way to bring her back that would also absolve her. That's the cocoon retcon. It was Busiek's idea (but I have to stress, Busiek is an excellent writer and this very contrived retcon was something he came up with for fun, while operating under the strict Jim Shooter guidelines of totally absolving her) and it found its way from the person Busiek told it too (Gruenwald I think?) all the way up to Shooter himself. And Shooter agreed to do it.
Claremont wanted nothing to do with it because he was so upset about it (he even proposed Sara Grey being the X-Factor member instead) and so they couldn't do it in Uncanny X-Men. But John Byrne always felt a little bad that Jean had died (possibly because it was his artistic license that got her killed) and he was happy to have a chance to rectify it. So in Byrne's Fantastic Four is where Jean is fished out of the bottom of Jamaica Bay.
Of course, Byrne committed fully to the idea of Jean and Phoenix being entirely, totally separate entities and wrote it that way. But that must have bothered Claremont, because Jim Shooter ended up rewriting some of the pages of Fantastic Four to more closely reflect that Phoenix had Jean's soul and was her in a way. Byrne was now upset that they changed his work after he was so happy to help, and had his name taken off the credits of the issue. Jackson Guice (RIP) was brought in to make the last minute art changes.
And so that's how Jean was brought back. Was it a good creative decision? Most would say no, arguing that it cheapened Jean's death in Dark Phoenix Saga. But I would argue Claremont had already cheapened her death by introducing Rachel and Phoenix again. Commercially, X-Factor was a huge hit, and its success is what helped lead to the ever expanding X-Men line that culminated in a giant boom in the early '90s, followed by a crash in the later end of that decade. I think if you asked Jim Shooter if he'd do it all over again, he would argue yes. The man was hard headed in his editorial decisions, but he loved a buck more than any of that.
Shooter was willing to bring her back, but only if she was absolutely, and completely absolved of anything that happened while she was Phoenix.
Kurt Busiek, who was not yet the famous writer he is today, made a game of it. He famously hated that Jean died and has always been fond of Silver Age X-Men, and so, operating under Jim Shooter's rules, he told Mark Gruenwald about a way to bring her back that would also absolve her. That's the cocoon retcon. It was Busiek's idea (but I have to stress, Busiek is an excellent writer and this very contrived retcon was something he came up with for fun, while operating under the strict Jim Shooter guidelines of totally absolving her) and it found its way from the person Busiek told it too (Gruenwald I think?) all the way up to Shooter himself. And Shooter agreed to do it.
Claremont wanted nothing to do with it because he was so upset about it (he even proposed Sara Grey being the X-Factor member instead) and so they couldn't do it in Uncanny X-Men. But John Byrne always felt a little bad that Jean had died (possibly because it was his artistic license that got her killed) and he was happy to have a chance to rectify it. So in Byrne's Fantastic Four is where Jean is fished out of the bottom of Jamaica Bay.
Of course, Byrne committed fully to the idea of Jean and Phoenix being entirely, totally separate entities and wrote it that way. But that must have bothered Claremont, because Jim Shooter ended up rewriting some of the pages of Fantastic Four to more closely reflect that Phoenix had Jean's soul and was her in a way. Byrne was now upset that they changed his work after he was so happy to help, and had his name taken off the credits of the issue. Jackson Guice (RIP) was brought in to make the last minute art changes.
And so that's how Jean was brought back. Was it a good creative decision? Most would say no, arguing that it cheapened Jean's death in Dark Phoenix Saga. But I would argue Claremont had already cheapened her death by introducing Rachel and Phoenix again. Commercially, X-Factor was a huge hit, and its success is what helped lead to the ever expanding X-Men line that culminated in a giant boom in the early '90s, followed by a crash in the later end of that decade. I think if you asked Jim Shooter if he'd do it all over again, he would argue yes. The man was hard headed in his editorial decisions, but he loved a buck more than any of that.
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Inhumans99 (07-01-25)
#9
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Jim Shooter, RIP (1951-2025)
His blog is a fascinating read (not sure how long it'll remain up at this point). Obviously things are written from his point of view/recollection
JimShooter.com ? Writer. Creator. Large mammal.
RIP Mr. Shooter.
#10
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Jim Shooter, RIP (1951-2025)
The issue wasn't just that is cheapened Jean death it also turned Scott into a complete dick. He leaves his wife and newborn to come back to see Jean.
#11
Re: Jim Shooter, RIP (1951-2025)
Also, X-Factor sucked.
#12
Thread Starter
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Jim Shooter, RIP (1951-2025)
I also kind of dug that storyline where Hank Pym punched Janet in the face.
I don't mind stuff going dark. I notice that on Shooter's blog upthread he said he didn't mean for Pym to slug her like that and laid the blame on Bob Hall for interpreting his story that way, but then justifies it by claiming her discussed it with a psychologist. 

Of course Mark Millar took it a whole lot further in The Ultimates.

#14
Thread Starter
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Jim Shooter, RIP (1951-2025)
X-Factor was, from I remember, sort of odd in that it was generally only good during the big crossover events -- "Mutant Massacre" when Angel lost his wings, "Fall of the Mutants" when Archangel was revealed to be Apocalypse's fourth Horseman, and "Inferno" when X-Factor met the X-Men. But the stuff between was mostly forgettable and directionless, like Louise Simonson's post-Claremont New Mutants. I don't think X-Factor ever really came onto its own until the post-"The X-Tinction Agenda" Whilce Portacio issues. (And even then it's a crying shame that Portacio didn't draw "The X-Tinction Agenda" X-Factor issues instead of Bogdanove.)
#15
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Jim Shooter, RIP (1951-2025)
X-Factor was, from I remember, sort of odd in that it was generally only good during the big crossover events -- "Mutant Massacre" when Angel lost his wings, "Fall of the Mutants" when Archangel was revealed to be Apocalypse's fourth Horseman, and "Inferno" when X-Factor met the X-Men. But the stuff between was mostly forgettable and directionless, like Louise Simonson's post-Claremont New Mutants. I don't think X-Factor ever really came onto its own until the post-"The X-Tinction Agenda" Whilce Portacio issues. (And even then it's a crying shame that Portacio didn't draw "The X-Tinction Agenda" X-Factor issues instead of Bogdanove.)
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PhantomStranger (07-04-25)
#16
Re: Jim Shooter, RIP (1951-2025)
I think the initial run of X-Factor where they're mutant hunters is awful. It gets a lot better when Walt Simonson comes on, but I don't think as a group the original X-Men are particularly interesting. And the fact that Claremont completely ostracized the book meant that it seemed to take place in it's own little pocket universe separate from the other X titles. It had it's moments, but ultimately I think it was just another big step towards the overall dilution of the franchise.
#17
Thread Starter
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Jim Shooter, RIP (1951-2025)
While this is danger of becoming an X-Factor thread, here's a lengthy piece by Tom Brevoort detailing the back-and-forth between Shooter, Claremont, Byrne, Louise Simonson, and Mike Carlin over the return of Jean Grey in the pages of Fantastic Four that led to Shooter re-writing parts of Byrne's script, Jackson Guice re-drawing some Byrne pages, John Byrne having his credit taken off of the issue, and editor Mike Carlin ultimately getting fired and moving to DC over the debacle.
I had no idea that the creation of X-Factor and the return of the original five X-Men was so tumultuous.
https://tombrevoort.com/2022/06/25/f...hn-byrnes-way/
The changes are a bit hard to follow in Brevoort's blog entry, but I prefer Shooter and Claremont's take on the Jean/Phoenix relationship, where Phoenix is less malicious, than Byrne's, where Phoenix is just straight-up evil. Though it did lead to the over-use of the Phoenix Force in later comics from Claremont and others.
And I always sort of wondered if the "Mutant Exterminator" aspect in the early days of X-Factor wasn't inspired by Ghostbusters... and now it's confirmed.
I had no idea that the creation of X-Factor and the return of the original five X-Men was so tumultuous.
https://tombrevoort.com/2022/06/25/f...hn-byrnes-way/
The changes are a bit hard to follow in Brevoort's blog entry, but I prefer Shooter and Claremont's take on the Jean/Phoenix relationship, where Phoenix is less malicious, than Byrne's, where Phoenix is just straight-up evil. Though it did lead to the over-use of the Phoenix Force in later comics from Claremont and others.
And I always sort of wondered if the "Mutant Exterminator" aspect in the early days of X-Factor wasn't inspired by Ghostbusters... and now it's confirmed.
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Spiderbite (07-06-25)
#18
DVD Talk Godfather
Re: Jim Shooter, RIP (1951-2025)
While this is danger of becoming an X-Factor thread, here's a lengthy piece by Tom Brevoort detailing the back-and-forth between Shooter, Claremont, Byrne, Louise Simonson, and Mike Carlin over the return of Jean Grey in the pages of Fantastic Four that led to Shooter re-writing parts of Byrne's script, Jackson Guice re-drawing some Byrne pages, John Byrne having his credit taken off of the issue, and editor Mike Carlin ultimately getting fired and moving to DC over the debacle.
I had no idea that the creation of X-Factor and the return of the original five X-Men was so tumultuous.
https://tombrevoort.com/2022/06/25/f...hn-byrnes-way/
The changes are a bit hard to follow in Brevoort's blog entry, but I prefer Shooter and Claremont's take on the Jean/Phoenix relationship, where Phoenix is less malicious, than Byrne's, where Phoenix is just straight-up evil. Though it did lead to the over-use of the Phoenix Force in later comics from Claremont and others.
And I always sort of wondered if the "Mutant Exterminator" aspect in the early days of X-Factor wasn't inspired by Ghostbusters... and now it's confirmed.
I had no idea that the creation of X-Factor and the return of the original five X-Men was so tumultuous.
https://tombrevoort.com/2022/06/25/f...hn-byrnes-way/
The changes are a bit hard to follow in Brevoort's blog entry, but I prefer Shooter and Claremont's take on the Jean/Phoenix relationship, where Phoenix is less malicious, than Byrne's, where Phoenix is just straight-up evil. Though it did lead to the over-use of the Phoenix Force in later comics from Claremont and others.
And I always sort of wondered if the "Mutant Exterminator" aspect in the early days of X-Factor wasn't inspired by Ghostbusters... and now it's confirmed.




