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Old 02-23-16, 12:56 PM   #1
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Stan Lee's Universe

Interesting article on Stan. It's sort of long with info. that most already know but it's still a good read...


http://www.vulture.com/2016/02/stan-...id=nymag_press

He built Marvel Comics and laid the foundation for today’s blockbuster superhero movies. So why, at 93, is his legacy in question?
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Old 02-23-16, 02:34 PM   #2
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Re: Stan Lee's Universe

It's a lengthy encapsulation of Stan's relationship with Marvel over the decades and the business failure of his recent POW venture.

You don't see pieces of that length much more on the web. Growing up I firmly believed Lee had mostly created the entire Marvel universe by himself. It was very disappointing to learn as I got older that Kirby and Ditko were almost entirely responsible for Marvel's most famous characters. I believe pretty much everything Kirby and Ditko had to say on the matter, nothing I've seen indicates otherwise.
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Old 02-24-16, 07:42 AM   #3
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Re: Stan Lee's Universe

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Growing up I firmly believed Lee had mostly created the entire Marvel universe by himself. It was very disappointing to learn as I got older that Kirby and Ditko were almost entirely responsible for Marvel's most famous characters. I believe pretty much everything Kirby and Ditko had to say on the matter, nothing I've seen indicates otherwise.
There's not a lot of middle ground in the Lee vs. Kirby argument. Likewise with Ditko. But, in the middle, is firmly where I stand. As far as credit for creating the Marvel Universe goes, Stan publicly gets the most credit and that's not fair. He was the corporate face of the company during his time as chief editor/publisher and he had a knack for dealing with the media and fan base. He was willing to do the college speaking tours and accept interviews promoting the comics, the company, and himself. I've heard and read many an interview though where he credits the amazing talents of Kirby and Ditko.

Public credit or acknowledgement aside, to say that Lee single-handedly created the Marvel Universe is wrong. But so is saying that Kirby and Ditko deserve that honor. Comics are a very collaborative medium and early Marvel is no exception. As far as building a universe and the legacy that is Marvel, I contend that it wouldn't have happened without the mix of talent that we got. Don't discount Lee's leadership and the ideas that he contributed. The only reason Ditko ever drew Spider-Man was because Lee gave him the assignment. And that was after he gave it to Kirby and didn't like the results. And as amazing as Kirby was, the Marvel comics he did with Lee were the high point of his stellar career. Kirby and Ditko don't get the credit they deserve for the contributions they made, including writing the books they worked on. Sure, they might not have sat in front of a typewriter and knocked out the stories but they sure as hell sat at their tables with pencil in hand and "wrote" those stories out in their art. They then submitted those fully written stories to Lee who put in his own dialogue and captions. It's the combination of those pictures and words that make comics so thrilling. And for these guys, that combination just worked. They all went on to do comics with other partners but none of them, not the New Gods or the Creeper, not Silver Star or the Blue Beetle, ever had the same magic as the Avengers or Thor or Spider-Man.

So, credit where credit is due, they all played a huge part in Marvel.
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Old 02-24-16, 08:15 AM   #4
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Re: Stan Lee's Universe

I am just about finished with Twomorrows excellent book called The Stan Lee Universe. It is filled with several old interviews with him, many around the mid to late 60's. In it, he always gives massive credit to Kirby and Ditko (particularly Kirby).

There is this myth that Stan ran around saying he was the sole creator of all the Marvel Universe and that just is not the case. Go back and read interviews with him from the 60's and 70's when Marvel was at its peak. He NEVER takes sole credit. Now maybe the news media reported it like that at times since he was the sole face of the company, but I have not read one interview (in this book or the several others I have read) where he is this asshole claiming creator-ship of everything like so many people seem to think. It's a myth.

Read anything about Ditko. He is a looney bird. A genius but still kinda nutty. And he wants to be considered the sole creator of Spider-man. Stan has always said that Ditko was a co-creator of Spider-man but Ditko doesn't like that.

And I still have read not one thing that Kirby said that was bad about Stan. The most I could find was that Martin Goodman never paid Kirby what he was worth but Stan had little say in that. He was worried about his job half the time (or so he states) and I don't think he went to bat for Kirby (or other artists) on getting them the amount of money they were worth. He may have some blame there but he didn't write the paychecks at Marvel like so many seem to think.
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Old 02-24-16, 08:19 AM   #5
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Re: Stan Lee's Universe

^ I tend to agree.

It seems that, when it comes to Lee vs Kirby/Ditko, some people want to pick a side and minimize the involvement of the other. But I believe that all parties were involved in the collaborative creation of the early Marvel Universe, and they really captured lightning in a bottle by having the right people at the right time.

Lee probably got the Lion's share of the official credit within the company because he's the one who stuck with Marvel Comics. Kirby bailed and sued them, and Ditko got into Ayn Rand and went into a sort of ideological exile. I don't want to sound like a dick here, but with Kirby's history with the company, Marvel had every reason to want to diminish his contributions. And Steve "My work speaks for me" Ditko isn't going to be making a lot of noise to the press or brown-nose Marvel, so they have no reason to publicize his contribution, either. That's just the way businesses work.
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Old 02-24-16, 09:01 AM   #6
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Re: Stan Lee's Universe

And you also have to realize how unique Stan's vocal approach to comics were at that time. NOBODY in comics spoke to the public like Stan did. He gave everyone nick names and even named the inker and the letterer which was practically unheard of at the time. What the fuck is a letterer...I know I wondered that when I was a kid.

He had the bullpen section and Stan's soapbox. The way he responded to people in the letters section. You can complain about how repetitive and explanatory his dialogue was at the time but nobody spoke to the reader like Stan's stuff did. It was completely unique and made the reader feel like he was part of the gang or in on the story/joke.

I think Stan Lee deserves all the credit he gets. And he gives much of that credit to others constantly.
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Old 02-24-16, 03:41 PM   #7
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Re: Stan Lee's Universe

I do believe Stan Lee's strong editorial voice was his most significant contribution to Marvel's universe, more than any one character or book. He singlehandedly shaped the universe-building approach that proved so popular with comic book fans. He also had a unique understanding of the emotional issues attached to being a superhero, which permeated all of Marvel's Silver Age books. That is his key contribution to the success and popularity of Marvel.

Stan's actual writing had its problems and the dialogue sounds incredibly stiff to modern ears, even when I first started reading them in the 1980s. He was about three decades behind everyone else in terms of dialogue sophistication and never really improved in that area.
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Old 02-24-16, 05:54 PM   #8
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Re: Stan Lee's Universe

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Stan's actual writing had its problems and the dialogue sounds incredibly stiff to modern ears, even when I first started reading them in the 1980s. He was about three decades behind everyone else in terms of dialogue sophistication and never really improved in that area.
Yeah, we don't need a play by play on every damn panel. This is the main reason I don't like his writing. Too wordy. The art should have been left alone to tell the action. Using thought balloons would have also been a better idea.

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Old 02-25-16, 07:18 AM   #9
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Re: Stan Lee's Universe

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And you also have to realize how unique Stan's vocal approach to comics were at that time. NOBODY in comics spoke to the public like Stan did. He gave everyone nick names and even named the inker and the letterer which was practically unheard of at the time. What the fuck is a letterer...I know I wondered that when I was a kid.

He had the bullpen section and Stan's soapbox. The way he responded to people in the letters section. You can complain about how repetitive and explanatory his dialogue was at the time but nobody spoke to the reader like Stan's stuff did. It was completely unique and made the reader feel like he was part of the gang or in on the story/joke.

I think Stan Lee deserves all the credit he gets. And he gives much of that credit to others constantly.
During the 60s Marvel Comics were considered hip. Very popular on college campuses. If you were in high school or college and read DC you were a geek, if you read Marvel you were cool.
Like Spiderbite said, there was a Marvel Gang and Stan's style made you feel like you were "in" with the gang. You knew the names of everybody in the gang.
Written by STAN LEE: Prince of Prestidigitators!
Illustrated by STEVE DITKO: Lord of Legerdemain!
Lettered by ART SIMEK: Nabor of Necromancy!
The way he embellished footnotes. *Last Ish-Stan, *Way back in ish #2-Scholory Stan.
The story titles. Instead of "The Defeat of Thor", Stan would call it "When A God May Perish".

'Nuff Said
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Old 02-25-16, 08:10 AM   #10
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Re: Stan Lee's Universe

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Read anything about Ditko. He is a looney bird. A genius but still kinda nutty. And he wants to be considered the sole creator of Spider-man. Stan has always said that Ditko was a co-creator of Spider-man but Ditko doesn't like that.
He's a bit out there with some of his views but "looney" takes it a bit far. I also don't think Ditko wants to be considered the sole creator of Spidey, he just has issues that Stan believes that Stan is the sole creator of Spidey. In Stan's view, he came up with the idea/concept for the character, gave it to an artist who put that idea to paper. Making Stan the creator. Stan at one point was willing to say in writing the he "considers" Ditko a co-creator but Ditko took issue with the wording. I don't know how to embed video but this sums it up nicely, and right from the horse's mouth (it's all interesting but from 3:54 is the pertinent part):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4z7xuDhMeg

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And I still have read not one thing that Kirby said that was bad about Stan. The most I could find was that Martin Goodman never paid Kirby what he was worth but Stan had little say in that. He was worried about his job half the time (or so he states) and I don't think he went to bat for Kirby (or other artists) on getting them the amount of money they were worth. He may have some blame there but he didn't write the paychecks at Marvel like so many seem to think.
Jack said plenty of bad things about Stan. There was a period where he was particularly bitter and Gary Groth from the Comics Journal was criticized for interviewing Kirby during this period and getting him to say all kinds of thinks like "I've never seen Stan Lee write anything." And claiming that it was he who rescued Marvel saying that when he showed up Stan was crying and they were selling the furniture. He also took credit for creating everything, including Spider-Man: “I created Spider-Man. We decided to give it to Steve Ditko. I drew the first Spider-Man cover. I created the character. I created the costume. I created all those books, but I couldn’t do them all.”

I just found the article and here's a page of some of the more scathing comments: http://www.tcj.com/jack-kirby-interview/6/

Even Mark Evanier disregards these comments as exaggerations and a product of emotion more than truth: Jack had a tendency to get things just plain wrong, for factual reasons if nothing else."

Kirby says plenty more "critical" (to be nice) things about Stan throughout that article to.

In the end though, it's hard to deny that Stan played a huge role in rebuilding Marvel and creating such a lasting legacy. That he was the public face of Marvel, and comics as a whole, to the general public is what has built him up as a legend as opposed to Kirby and Ditko who toiled behind the scenes. The truth of the matter is that Kirby wasn't particularly good in interviews and Ditko wasn't even interested. That left Stan to lead the charge waving the banner and the general public ended up with the impression that it was him creating all those comics/characters. He could have said "Kirby" and "Ditko" a million times (and probably did) but "civilian" (non-comic fans) readers and viewers walked away from those interviews with the impression that Stan really was "the Man" behind everything they say. Many journalists would say as much despite Lee's constant references to the artists.
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Old 02-25-16, 04:11 PM   #11
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Re: Stan Lee's Universe

^I've seen that interview with Stan and I don't see anything wrong with it. He feels he had the original idea and created the idea of Spider-man. He also goes so far as to put it in writing that Ditko is the co-creator of Spider-man and Ditko still isn't satisfied. I don't know what else one can say at that point.

And I also have seen a few of those "angry" quotes from Kirby and I really don't pay any attention to them because they have no merit. Just like the "angry" quotes from Lennon who said that McCartney didn't write anything but rubbish. "Angry" quotes like that are easily dismissed because everyone knows that they aren't true. Even the people saying them knows they aren't true. They are just pissed at the individual for many things and go too far in what they say or claim.

Some of the stuff Kirby says in the interview you posted is completely false. There is easy proof that he is exaggerating (if not downright lying). I am not sure when that interview was dated but Kirby seemed to always have a love/hate relationship with Stan. As you said, even Kirby fans dismiss a lot of his harshest comments because there is evidence that shows they aren't true.

But as others have posted, comics of that time were a very collaborative effort and Stan was the main spokesperson for the company as well as a creator and writer. I do feel he has been incorrectly portrayed as a villain from time to time but that usually comes strictly from the Kirby and Ditko fanatics.

My favorite stories of Stan are his meetings with artists, jumping up on tables and doing poses to show them what he wanted. What I wouldn't give to be a fly on the wall in a couple of those meetings. And the guy must have had a crazy addiction to sourballs candy.
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Old 02-25-16, 04:36 PM   #12
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Re: Stan Lee's Universe

If I'm remembering writing, Ditko took issue with Stan saying something like "I've always considered Steve Ditko to be Spider-Man's co-creator."

"Considered" seemed to be what stuck in his craw. Ditko's A=A Objectivism made him see the phrasing as something less than an absolute truth.

I think you can look at both Kirby and Ditko's work after working with Stan Lee as proof that he was handling dialog and smoothing over some of the rougher edges.
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Old 02-25-16, 07:31 PM   #13
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Re: Stan Lee's Universe

Creation is a difficult thing to exactly define when it comes to collaborative projects. I see the logic in Stan Lee's comment in that if the art was different and the book didn't sell well, then he would have still been the creator, just of a failed project. But comics are such a visual medium, I'd say that unless he designed the look of the characters and gave rough sketches for each page, then the artist deserves half the credit.
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Old 02-25-16, 07:48 PM   #14
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Re: Stan Lee's Universe

Speaking of Stan Lee's dialogue being dated, I'll be the guy to say it: growing up, I thought Kirby's stuff was kinda ugly. I appreciate the dynamic nature of his poses and such, but I'm not a huge fan of the guys who ape his style in this day and age. And I absolutely love his New Gods stuff, in addition to everything else he did.
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Old 02-26-16, 07:32 AM   #15
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Re: Stan Lee's Universe

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But comics are such a visual medium, I'd say that unless he designed the look of the characters and gave rough sketches for each page, then the artist deserves half the credit.
Exactly. Marvel couldn't put Lee's idea of Spider-Man on a tee shirt. They didn't capture ideas on under-roos. It took the combination of Stan's idea and Steve's images (plus the great concepts, stories, and characters that came out of those critical first three years) to cement Spider-Man's place in pop culture. I can't understand how Stan can't see or agree to that.

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Speaking of Stan Lee's dialogue being dated, I'll be the guy to say it: growing up, I thought Kirby's stuff was kinda ugly. I appreciate the dynamic nature of his poses and such, but I'm not a huge fan of the guys who ape his style in this day and age. And I absolutely love his New Gods stuff, in addition to everything else he did.
I'm a huge Kirby fan. Now. But I was the same way. I missed the Marvel's 1960s heyday as I didn't start reading until the mid-70s but when I encountered Kirby I too thought the work was blocky and ugly. I warmed up to him through Cap and other 60's Marvel reprints and soon came to appreciate the energy and dynamism that he conveyed in his work. Now I really love a lot of the work he did with Joe Simon in the 40s.
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Old 02-26-16, 08:30 AM   #16
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Re: Stan Lee's Universe

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Speaking of Stan Lee's dialogue being dated, I'll be the guy to say it: growing up, I thought Kirby's stuff was kinda ugly. I appreciate the dynamic nature of his poses and such, but I'm not a huge fan of the guys who ape his style in this day and age. And I absolutely love his New Gods stuff, in addition to everything else he did.
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Exactly. Marvel couldn't put Lee's idea of Spider-Man on a tee shirt. They didn't capture ideas on under-roos. It took the combination of Stan's idea and Steve's images (plus the great concepts, stories, and characters that came out of those critical first three years) to cement Spider-Man's place in pop culture. I can't understand how Stan can't see or agree to that.



I'm a huge Kirby fan. Now. But I was the same way. I missed the Marvel's 1960s heyday as I didn't start reading until the mid-70s but when I encountered Kirby I too thought the work was blocky and ugly. I warmed up to him through Cap and other 60's Marvel reprints and soon came to appreciate the energy and dynamism that he conveyed in his work. Now I really love a lot of the work he did with Joe Simon in the 40s.
What are you talking about? Stan has said and even put it in writing that he considers Ditko the co-creator of Spider-man. He has given credit to all of the guys he works with since the 60's publicly. The praise he lavishes on Kirby in old and new interviews is huge. I don't know what else people like you expect of him.

As far as Kirby goes from the above two posts, I hated him as a kid. I usually avoided his stuff as soon as I saw his art in it. As an adult, I still don't care for his style.

But I do appreciate him and what he did. It's a lot like Bob Dylan. I don't like Bob Dylan but I appreciate his legacy.

But Kirby or Dylan's stuff is not the first thing I am going to run to in comics or music. Just not my taste.
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Old 02-26-16, 10:55 AM   #17
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Re: Stan Lee's Universe

Did you watch that interview Spider? It's obvious that Stan doesn't really consider Steve and Jack as equal partners.

I'm not an anti-Stan guy at all, he deserves a ton of credit for co-creating some classic characters and ushering in the Marvel style. Not sure if it should be 50/50 or somewhat less for Stan.
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Old 02-26-16, 12:35 PM   #18
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Re: Stan Lee's Universe

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Did you watch that interview Spider? It's obvious that Stan doesn't really consider Steve and Jack as equal partners.
Yeah I watched it. I didn't get that impression at all unless there is something I missed.

Only Steve was discussed in that clip and it was mainly about who gets to be called "the creator" of Spider-man. I don't recall Jack being mentioned at all. I can see Stan's point of view as the "idea man" but in the end, he still calls Ditko the "co-creator." Whether you think he is being disingenuous is up to the viewer. It certainly doesn't mean anything one way or another at the end of the day.
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Old 03-08-16, 06:39 PM   #19
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Re: Stan Lee's Universe

Something that always bugs me about Stan is that anytime he talks about characters he always says
something like, " Well when I created *character* ..."

I would love to hear him say "when WE came up with that idea for that character" or something along that way instaed.
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Old 03-09-16, 07:28 AM   #20
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Re: Stan Lee's Universe

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Yeah I watched it. I didn't get that impression at all unless there is something I missed.
Well, you missed something then.
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Old 03-14-16, 02:39 PM   #21
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Re: Stan Lee's Universe

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Old 03-14-16, 06:01 PM   #22
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Re: Stan Lee's Universe

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Well, you missed something then.
Whatever. Even if he doesn't consider Kirby or Ditko an equal partner, does it affect what was created? As I said before, at the end of the day, it doesn't mean shit and doesn't affect me either way. I like Stan Lee. I like Steve Ditko. I don't really care for Kirby but I appreciate his legacy. Nothing said nowadays is going to change that for most people.

I am still doing my Kirby/Lee history tour and and now in the middle of Twomorrow's excellent release called Lee & Kirby: The Wonder Years 1961 - 1970.

And wasn't that comic above published by Marvel? I am sure if Stan Lee was worried about being called an idea stealer that he wouldn't let stuff like that be published. They all had a sense of humor back then and made fun of each other in lots of comics.

Again, I don't see the big deal. Kirby and Ditko get their mentions constantly, back then and today even by Stan The Man himself. If you want to discuss someone getting fucked in comic history, go talk about Bill Finger.
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Old 03-14-16, 07:32 PM   #23
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Re: Stan Lee's Universe

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If you want to discuss someone getting fucked in comic history, go talk about Bill Finger.
I saw a panel at a con about Batman and uncredited creators with Mark Evanier, Jerry Robinson's son and probably one or two more people. They might as well have titled the panel "Fuck Bob Kane." It was kind of amazing.
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Old 03-14-16, 10:10 PM   #24
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Re: Stan Lee's Universe

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Good thing Ditko never worked with Warren Ellis.
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Old 03-14-16, 10:37 PM   #25
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Re: Stan Lee's Universe

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