Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
#1
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Thread Starter
Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
It has been on an ongoing matter for some time now yet with Marvel's current re-re-re-re-re-re-relaunching of some titles I was curious what everyone's overall thoughts on the matter.
Aside from Action Comics And Detective (those long runs were quite nice so it was bad to see those ruined) it's not that big of a deal in relaunch a series and a comic like Amazing Spider-Man which hit 700 already had it's numbering messed up years ago. Now, if they could just get it right.
I have noticed this more after doing some collection back issue research and it's insane. If a company wants to relaunch they could just commit to it. If and when Action Comics 96 is released they could also put on it the 1,000th issue of Action comics while maintaining their current numbering system.
I was thinking about Fantastic Four stopping at 587 then starting again with 600 which is completely off since FF is not truly Fantastic Four and FF continued. That alone says they were different series. They already altered the numbers many years ago anyway.
Wolverine had 1-4 1-189 1-74 (however there was Dark Wolverine with a different character yet continued the numbering of that series) 1-20 then restarts at 300-317 then relaunched for only 1-13 to be relaunched AGAIN!
They could also be a bit more clear on volumes, back issue hunting with mid series renaming, random number changing etc... makes it a mess.
Since they seem to love new number ones so much it's surprising they don't just do yearly or story arc volumes. I have no issue with large number series, sure made it easy to refer or find something. Since most of that is gone I have no issue with volumes if they can just commit to the number and title of the series and stop making their history so confusing.
Overall I just want good art and stories in whatever format it comes in. A bit more order would not hurt.
Edit - Mike86 reminded me of another thought I had - Title name changes to make it less confusing would not hurt.
Aside from Action Comics And Detective (those long runs were quite nice so it was bad to see those ruined) it's not that big of a deal in relaunch a series and a comic like Amazing Spider-Man which hit 700 already had it's numbering messed up years ago. Now, if they could just get it right.
I have noticed this more after doing some collection back issue research and it's insane. If a company wants to relaunch they could just commit to it. If and when Action Comics 96 is released they could also put on it the 1,000th issue of Action comics while maintaining their current numbering system.
I was thinking about Fantastic Four stopping at 587 then starting again with 600 which is completely off since FF is not truly Fantastic Four and FF continued. That alone says they were different series. They already altered the numbers many years ago anyway.
Wolverine had 1-4 1-189 1-74 (however there was Dark Wolverine with a different character yet continued the numbering of that series) 1-20 then restarts at 300-317 then relaunched for only 1-13 to be relaunched AGAIN!
They could also be a bit more clear on volumes, back issue hunting with mid series renaming, random number changing etc... makes it a mess.
Since they seem to love new number ones so much it's surprising they don't just do yearly or story arc volumes. I have no issue with large number series, sure made it easy to refer or find something. Since most of that is gone I have no issue with volumes if they can just commit to the number and title of the series and stop making their history so confusing.
Overall I just want good art and stories in whatever format it comes in. A bit more order would not hurt.
Edit - Mike86 reminded me of another thought I had - Title name changes to make it less confusing would not hurt.
Last edited by Xiroteus; 03-19-14 at 07:58 PM.
#2
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
Yeah the way titles are numbered is confusing at times for sure. If the companies insist on starting over with their numbering they should just completely change the title instead of saying that the original Batman #1 isn't the same as The New 52 Batman #1 and etc. They could really just name the titles after a particular arc with the character's name in the title so everyone would know what character the story is following. It pretty much wouldn't change things much anyways seeing as how titles eventually get collected in larger formats and there isn't a whole lot of singular stories now days. The one off stories that happen could just have a new title or something dedicated to just those types of stories. I'm sure some fans would be upset over the classic titles being discontinued but the re-numbering system is just a giant mess at times and I can see how it would be confusing and probably a turn off for new fans if regular fans feel that way.
#3
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Thread Starter
Re: Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
They could also try harder to change up the titles. Changing names mid series should be a huge no. There was even a difference in volumes from Punisher vs The Punisher and of course there was Punisher Max and one title changed to his name mid way.
I saw a series called Atomic Robo that basically has mini series volumes and it shows on the cover along with a new subtitle for that series.
I saw a series called Atomic Robo that basically has mini series volumes and it shows on the cover along with a new subtitle for that series.
#4
DVD Talk Special Edition
Re: Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
Yea, the constant re-numbering is annoying and does turn hunting for back issues into a pain in the ass. It seems like every time a book changes writers and artists, it gets restarted. I'm wondering if the re-numbering might be marketing related? It seemed like before, the comics that restarted from 1 were books whose runs ended years before and were being relaunched by a different creative team. Since Marvel has been constantly relaunching their titles at #1 for the last couple years, I'm wondering if it's something Joe Quesada or their marketing team is pushing.
#5
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
Makes a good jumping-off point for readers who are bored with the title and character.
#6
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Thread Starter
Re: Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
Yea, the constant re-numbering is annoying and does turn hunting for back issues into a pain in the ass. It seems like every time a book changes writers and artists, it gets restarted. I'm wondering if the re-numbering might be marketing related? It seemed like before, the comics that restarted from 1 were books whose runs ended years before and were being relaunched by a different creative team. Since Marvel has been constantly relaunching their titles at #1 for the last couple years, I'm wondering if it's something Joe Quesada or their marketing team is pushing.
This feels like they are trying too hard, issue 19 with a HUGE 1 in the corner for the new storyline.
Spoiler:
That I have heard people say. Some call it a jumping on point while others say they just stopped.
#7
Re: Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
Renumbering a series should only be done if the title was discontinued for a period of time. It make no sense to have #23 one month, and then next moth the title goes back to #1, and then some months later jump to #500 or #600 then go back to some low number again the next month.
I like the old way marvel used to do it with volume numbers. I remember in the 1980's there were very few titles that were volume 2 or higher. There was Dr. Strange, Red Sonja, Moon Knight, and maybe a few others. Also, those 2nd or 3rd volume came out years after the previous volume was canceled so it made sense to start over at #1 in those cases.
At the very least, Marvel should go back to putting volume numbers on the indicia so people can keep track for collecting purposes.
I like the old way marvel used to do it with volume numbers. I remember in the 1980's there were very few titles that were volume 2 or higher. There was Dr. Strange, Red Sonja, Moon Knight, and maybe a few others. Also, those 2nd or 3rd volume came out years after the previous volume was canceled so it made sense to start over at #1 in those cases.
At the very least, Marvel should go back to putting volume numbers on the indicia so people can keep track for collecting purposes.
#8
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
The renumbering drove me away from modern Marvel comics. It's so easy to drop a series if a long-running series has been terrible recently and they decide to start the numbering over again.
I am a big believer in the original numbering for all comic books, particularly the ones that have been around for decades and decades. It kills me to see Action Comics at its current numbering. These companies don't care about nostalgia of course, but pure sales. Number one issues sell better, they always have.
I am a big believer in the original numbering for all comic books, particularly the ones that have been around for decades and decades. It kills me to see Action Comics at its current numbering. These companies don't care about nostalgia of course, but pure sales. Number one issues sell better, they always have.
#9
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Thread Starter
Re: Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
The renumbering drove me away from modern Marvel comics. It's so easy to drop a series if a long-running series has been terrible recently and they decide to start the numbering over again.
I am a big believer in the original numbering for all comic books, particularly the ones that have been around for decades and decades. It kills me to see Action Comics at its current numbering. These companies don't care about nostalgia of course, but pure sales. Number one issues sell better, they always have.
I am a big believer in the original numbering for all comic books, particularly the ones that have been around for decades and decades. It kills me to see Action Comics at its current numbering. These companies don't care about nostalgia of course, but pure sales. Number one issues sell better, they always have.
I know Amazing is starting over with a new number one (surprised they did not try and count Superior Spider-Man as Amazing. Amazing could continue on with 701 etc..
Imagine now has comics with much higher numbers.
As for something I said in my original post once Action hits 96 (unless hey relaunch it five more times before then) they can state it's the 1000th issue along with 96 yet there is no need to then go 1001 etc... because they already screwed it up and they will just restart it after a few months or years anyway. Kind of like Wonder Woman, It was on 1-44 then 600-614 then started over....*sigh* comic chaos.
I like the old way marvel used to do it with volume numbers.
Fantastic Four issue nine? Volume 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 or 9?
o.O
#10
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
Used to be, maybe still is, a business downside to starting a new title or volume. Don't know if it's a Library of Congress thing, tax thing, or what. For example: In 1968 when Marvel discontinued TTA, TOS and ST there was a business advantage to start Hulk, Dr. Strange and Cap America by continuing the numbering. Cap #100 was really TOS #100 under some kind of publishing rule.
#11
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
Used to be, maybe still is, a business downside to starting a new title or volume. Don't know if it's a Library of Congress thing, tax thing, or what. For example: In 1968 when Marvel discontinued TTA, TOS and ST there was a business advantage to start Hulk, Dr. Strange and Cap America by continuing the numbering. Cap #100 was really TOS #100 under some kind of publishing rule.
The reasoning being that a comic with a high number looked like a popular series, so someone choosing between a #1 or #2 and a #68 or #122 would believe the higher numbered book was better.
Now the opposite seems to be true; readers are more interested in a #1 book than a high-numbered book because of perceived collectibility.
#12
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Re: Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
I lost interest in monthlies thanks to IDW's constant miniseries strategies back when; the renumbering would have the same effect. I want to know where I am in a story, and not have to research what's coming out and in what order. That's why I'm mainly concentrating on finishing my back-issue collection and calling it quits (aside from trades here and there).
#13
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Thread Starter
Re: Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
I lost interest in monthlies thanks to IDW's constant miniseries strategies back when; the renumbering would have the same effect. I want to know where I am in a story, and not have to research what's coming out and in what order. That's why I'm mainly concentrating on finishing my back-issue collection and calling it quits (aside from trades here and there).
#14
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Re: Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
#15
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Thread Starter
Re: Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
Marvels being much worse then DC at the moment however the companies don't seem to flip flop so much.
#16
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Re: Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
Marvel was doing them for a while, and oddly they almost always had lower sales than the regular issues. Now they're doing .NOW issues (12.NOW, 17.NOW) and sales on those go up for some reason.
#17
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Re: Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
YES! I do remember seeing that as well! I don't even want to think about those!
#18
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Re: Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
I can't tell you how many times I continued to buy a book simply because I have the entire run. Now with Marvel especially starting over with new No. 1 every few months, it's pretty easy to bail on a title that I'm not loving.
#19
Suspended
Re: Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
At the end of the day, readers are more likely to buy an issue #1 or a 100-issue anniversary. Until that changes, we're going to keep seeing renumbering.
#20
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
I don't really understand why though. I mean sure to new fans maybe they'll think they're getting something special by buying a number one issue but to those of us who have been around for a while we know it's just some marketing gimmick and that it's not really a number one and that since comics are so mass produced now days that rarely will an issue be worth more or whatever anyways.
#21
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
I think readers thought that in the 90's but today? That #1 is never going to be worth anything so why buy it if you otherwise wouldn't be buying the next issue of that comic?
#22
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Re: Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
I will admit to being sucked into the 100-issue anniversary thing from time to time. Kind of like a "what are they up to these days" sort of thing. But the #1's.. not even a bit of interest myself.
#23
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Re: Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
All the #17.NOW or #23.INFINITY or whatever stuff drives me nuts.
#24
Challenge Guru & Comic Nerd
Re: Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
And yeah, I did and still do occasionally buy a 100 issue just for the novelty.
#25
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Comic Numbering - Does It Matter?
Recent interview with Todd McFarlane on this very issue. I totally agree with what he says:
http://comicbook.com/blog/2014/02/01...usiness-sense/
http://comicbook.com/blog/2014/02/01...usiness-sense/
Todd McFarlane Says Comic Book Relaunches Don’t Make Business Sense
By: Joe Comicbook on February 1, 2014
For the past week, we’ve been running a series of articles that came from a lengthy, exclusive interview we did with McFarlane Toys founder and Spawn creator Todd McFarlane. In earlier articles, we’ve covered what McFarlane had to say about the Spawn movie, sports action figures, Spawn action figures, The Walking Dead, and more.
With all that McFarlane has going on, one might wonder if he still has time for comic books. While it’s hard to judge tone in black-and-white text, we can tell you that when it came time to talk about comic books, McFarlane lit up and gave some of his most passionate feedback of the entire interview. It’s obvious that comic books are still very much a part of McFarlane’s world, and he had some very strong views on the recent flood of relaunches by Marvel and DC.
Comicbook.com: It’s pretty impressive that Spawn has gotten up to around 239 issues now. Would you ever consider relaunching or are you going straight to try to reach a thousand issues before anyone else with Marvel and DC constantly relaunching?
Todd McFarlane: Yeah, I keep saying, if they keep relaunching pretty soon Spawn is going to be the highest numbered book in the country, that’s cool. It’s interesting. I’m a bit of old school guy, and it was weird, because when I was young, and I don’t know what historically has changed, maybe some of just the different marketing. But I actually would buy my comic books when I was younger based on how high the number was.
I took that a high number meant that the book must be pretty decent or must be a popular character because it had been around so long. And it’s weird that there’s now a little bit of a buzz that people go, “It’s a detriment. People don’t want to come in and jump in because they think that the numbering is scaring them.” It’s sort of a silly argument I’ve got to say, because it’s sort of saying, “While I haven’t seen all the New York Yankees games, and I never got to see Babe Ruth play and Joe DiMaggio and Mickey Mantle, so why would I start becoming a Yankees fan.” It’s sort of silly to me. People will jump in on movie franchises or TV shows during the middle of them. They’ll jump into sports hundreds of years past the launch of that franchise. So it seems weird to me because it’s ink on paper that somehow there’s a different mentality.
Maybe, there is, but my first goal right now is to just get to issue #301, because the longest running independent comic book ever was a book called Cerebus that Dave Sim did, a fellow Canadian. And he got up to issue #300. He always said he was going to do 300 and quit, which he did. He ran it to 300 issues and quit. And so I go cool, once I get to 301 I can stick out my chest and go, “Hey, I’ve got the longest running independent comic book.”
And the other thing was, and I’ve done these goofy things before in the past, and this is sort of one of those ones, I go, “If it has a 1 on it, and that’s going to make you buy more, then I’ll put two numbers on the book. I’ll put one at the top that says Spawn Relaunch #1, and at the bottom for those of us that want to keep going, it will be issue #251.” It’s bizarre to me that a number in the corner of a book is going to determine whether you have any interest in the book. And maybe the argument is that they can say they got there at the beginning. But even if I did launch a Spawn #1 that doesn’t preclude that there is 250 issues prior to that. That doesn’t go away. So even if you are a new reader, and you buy an issue number 1, you go, “Ha, I got number 1.” It’s still a fact that story is driven by everything that went on in the past 250, so if you have any interest in checking out any of the mythology of back issues, you have to get older stuff anyway. So like I said, it’s always been an odd conversation.
Then, if we shift it from what for me is an odd conversation, and you just shift it to the quote unquote business side of it. Dude, I’ve been around in business for a long time now, and you point to me one book… one book that relaunched its numbering and sold more books in the long run. And the answer is that book doesn’t exist. So I don’t even know why they keep asking for something that monetarily and business-wise has been a failure. It’s Bizarro conversation to me. So I just do what I do and just let the chips lie where they are at.
Comicbook.com: I think they are probably just looking at the short-term press side of it. They get the press coverage with a relaunch, but then they wind up having to do it again in another year.
Todd McFarlane: I’m not taking any of that away. I’m not denying that. All that happens. What doesn’t happen is that it sticks and there’s any longevity to it. You can have Amazing Spider-Man be up to issue #375 or some weird number, and it will sell in the 300K [range]. And now you’ve relaunched it four times, and it’s selling 100K. In your relaunching, you’ve lost two-thirds of your consumers.
Now, again, is it because of the relaunch? No. Is it because of the way we’re doing business in the comic book industry? Everybody is losing sales. So I’m just saying, having that number 1 on there is not a magical thing. It’s not a magical thing. It doesn’t mean that Marvel or anybody is going to sell more issues of the book. Maybe, I think DC is having a pretty good run on Batman, but I’m biased, I think that has more to do with what Scott Snyder and Greg Capullo are doing, than anything else. But historically, it just doesn’t matter.
Could I do it and get a bump up in sales? Yeah. Do I think that a year and a half later my sales will be right where they were if not below? Yep. So why do it? My old school just wants to be able to go to the price guide book, and I want to be able to look up Spawn, right before Spider-Man, Spawn, and go, “All that I need to know about that Spawn book for all intents and purposes, other than a couple mini-series, is like in one listing.” I don’t want to have to chase it down.
Gun to my head right now, and I’m a comic geek… gun to my head right now, somebody says, “Collect every issue chronologically of Fantastic Four.” I wouldn’t even know how to do it. I wouldn’t know how to do it. I’m like, “Is it that #1 first? Do I do then that #1, 237, then they went back to the old numbering, and then they relaunch it again. And then do I go to that #1? You know what I mean? Yikes.”
And sometimes they even change the title so it’s not even listed on the same page in the price guide. I don’t know. Like I said, I thought when I was a kid seeing Action Comics with a big number was cool. I thought having Detective Comics and Thor was over 200 issues and Spider-Man was getting to be 200 issues. Who else had big numbers? Fantastic Four was getting over 200 when I started collecting them going way back to the seventies. The Green Lantern, anything that was over a 100 or 200… and then like I said, when you got to Action Comics and Detective Comics that were up in the 300’s and 400’s I thought it was awesome. I remember going, “If I could create a character and have it go that many years, that would be awesome.”
By: Joe Comicbook on February 1, 2014
For the past week, we’ve been running a series of articles that came from a lengthy, exclusive interview we did with McFarlane Toys founder and Spawn creator Todd McFarlane. In earlier articles, we’ve covered what McFarlane had to say about the Spawn movie, sports action figures, Spawn action figures, The Walking Dead, and more.
With all that McFarlane has going on, one might wonder if he still has time for comic books. While it’s hard to judge tone in black-and-white text, we can tell you that when it came time to talk about comic books, McFarlane lit up and gave some of his most passionate feedback of the entire interview. It’s obvious that comic books are still very much a part of McFarlane’s world, and he had some very strong views on the recent flood of relaunches by Marvel and DC.
Comicbook.com: It’s pretty impressive that Spawn has gotten up to around 239 issues now. Would you ever consider relaunching or are you going straight to try to reach a thousand issues before anyone else with Marvel and DC constantly relaunching?
Todd McFarlane: Yeah, I keep saying, if they keep relaunching pretty soon Spawn is going to be the highest numbered book in the country, that’s cool. It’s interesting. I’m a bit of old school guy, and it was weird, because when I was young, and I don’t know what historically has changed, maybe some of just the different marketing. But I actually would buy my comic books when I was younger based on how high the number was.
I took that a high number meant that the book must be pretty decent or must be a popular character because it had been around so long. And it’s weird that there’s now a little bit of a buzz that people go, “It’s a detriment. People don’t want to come in and jump in because they think that the numbering is scaring them.” It’s sort of a silly argument I’ve got to say, because it’s sort of saying, “While I haven’t seen all the New York Yankees games, and I never got to see Babe Ruth play and Joe DiMaggio and Mickey Mantle, so why would I start becoming a Yankees fan.” It’s sort of silly to me. People will jump in on movie franchises or TV shows during the middle of them. They’ll jump into sports hundreds of years past the launch of that franchise. So it seems weird to me because it’s ink on paper that somehow there’s a different mentality.
Maybe, there is, but my first goal right now is to just get to issue #301, because the longest running independent comic book ever was a book called Cerebus that Dave Sim did, a fellow Canadian. And he got up to issue #300. He always said he was going to do 300 and quit, which he did. He ran it to 300 issues and quit. And so I go cool, once I get to 301 I can stick out my chest and go, “Hey, I’ve got the longest running independent comic book.”
And the other thing was, and I’ve done these goofy things before in the past, and this is sort of one of those ones, I go, “If it has a 1 on it, and that’s going to make you buy more, then I’ll put two numbers on the book. I’ll put one at the top that says Spawn Relaunch #1, and at the bottom for those of us that want to keep going, it will be issue #251.” It’s bizarre to me that a number in the corner of a book is going to determine whether you have any interest in the book. And maybe the argument is that they can say they got there at the beginning. But even if I did launch a Spawn #1 that doesn’t preclude that there is 250 issues prior to that. That doesn’t go away. So even if you are a new reader, and you buy an issue number 1, you go, “Ha, I got number 1.” It’s still a fact that story is driven by everything that went on in the past 250, so if you have any interest in checking out any of the mythology of back issues, you have to get older stuff anyway. So like I said, it’s always been an odd conversation.
Then, if we shift it from what for me is an odd conversation, and you just shift it to the quote unquote business side of it. Dude, I’ve been around in business for a long time now, and you point to me one book… one book that relaunched its numbering and sold more books in the long run. And the answer is that book doesn’t exist. So I don’t even know why they keep asking for something that monetarily and business-wise has been a failure. It’s Bizarro conversation to me. So I just do what I do and just let the chips lie where they are at.
Comicbook.com: I think they are probably just looking at the short-term press side of it. They get the press coverage with a relaunch, but then they wind up having to do it again in another year.
Todd McFarlane: I’m not taking any of that away. I’m not denying that. All that happens. What doesn’t happen is that it sticks and there’s any longevity to it. You can have Amazing Spider-Man be up to issue #375 or some weird number, and it will sell in the 300K [range]. And now you’ve relaunched it four times, and it’s selling 100K. In your relaunching, you’ve lost two-thirds of your consumers.
Now, again, is it because of the relaunch? No. Is it because of the way we’re doing business in the comic book industry? Everybody is losing sales. So I’m just saying, having that number 1 on there is not a magical thing. It’s not a magical thing. It doesn’t mean that Marvel or anybody is going to sell more issues of the book. Maybe, I think DC is having a pretty good run on Batman, but I’m biased, I think that has more to do with what Scott Snyder and Greg Capullo are doing, than anything else. But historically, it just doesn’t matter.
Could I do it and get a bump up in sales? Yeah. Do I think that a year and a half later my sales will be right where they were if not below? Yep. So why do it? My old school just wants to be able to go to the price guide book, and I want to be able to look up Spawn, right before Spider-Man, Spawn, and go, “All that I need to know about that Spawn book for all intents and purposes, other than a couple mini-series, is like in one listing.” I don’t want to have to chase it down.
Gun to my head right now, and I’m a comic geek… gun to my head right now, somebody says, “Collect every issue chronologically of Fantastic Four.” I wouldn’t even know how to do it. I wouldn’t know how to do it. I’m like, “Is it that #1 first? Do I do then that #1, 237, then they went back to the old numbering, and then they relaunch it again. And then do I go to that #1? You know what I mean? Yikes.”
And sometimes they even change the title so it’s not even listed on the same page in the price guide. I don’t know. Like I said, I thought when I was a kid seeing Action Comics with a big number was cool. I thought having Detective Comics and Thor was over 200 issues and Spider-Man was getting to be 200 issues. Who else had big numbers? Fantastic Four was getting over 200 when I started collecting them going way back to the seventies. The Green Lantern, anything that was over a 100 or 200… and then like I said, when you got to Action Comics and Detective Comics that were up in the 300’s and 400’s I thought it was awesome. I remember going, “If I could create a character and have it go that many years, that would be awesome.”