Why do you think comics are still looked down upon?
 

I honestly think that most of the people who say they are for "geeks" are people who've never read one. But it seems as if the "stigma" has grown worse over the last decade? Why?

Two reasons:

1. The speculator crash. People are now sitting on hundreds of thousands of useless comics.

2. I think our culture as a whole has become much more macho-oriented and braindead. Look at how pro wrestling dominates the mainstream now.

I think its the opposite. I think in the last 10 years, comics, or at least the characters, have become more mainstream. Just look at the success of the movies/TV like Spider-man, X-men, 300, Heroes, etc.

Penetrating into other media is a win win. Several of my friends started reading my comics, who never have before, after enjoying the movies

I think the success of trades is going to help also, since most outside the medium prefer "graphic novels" over floppies.

And wrestling isnt that big anymore, its all MMA now ;)

Being a former comic book collector, I still believe comics can one day regain its popularity, but only if two things happen.

First and foremost, prices have to come down drastically so that younger kids can afford to collect it. Being a collector back in the days when comics used to cost about a quarter, making it as much an impulse buy as a pack of gum or candy back in those days when I was a kid, comic books were very affordable. I haven't been to a comic store in years, but I'm guessing the average comic book probably runs around $2 to $3 per issue (if not more)which is way more than many in the younger crowd can afford, short of teenagers in their late teens and adults who actually work. Forget about comics being anything close to an impluse buy. If it means comic book companies returning to using cheaper paper on certain titles, so be it. I think building up a big fanbase, especially one that include younger kids who comics should especially appeal to, is vital to the comic book industry. Get them while they're young and they could be lifelong collectors.

Second, comics just don't seem fun to read anymore. Stories are way darker than those of my day, appealing mostly to an older crowd. They also don't have much going on, usually lacking much in action, and we just get full-page spreads of heroes doing poses (although beautifully drawn) than anything relevant happening on practically every page. I'm not saying that comics back in my day (70s and 80s) were sophisticated in any way. Stories were often simplistic, as was the dialogue, but they were fun to read and they had plenty of action. And more importantly, I always looked forward to the next issue.

Collecting comics when the zenith of art and storytelling in those days were John Byrne/Chris Claremont's X-Men and Frank Miller's Daredevil, I don't think comics have improved since then. That's only my opinion, and I'm sure many of the current collectors may disagree.

I also agree that with so many superhero movies coming out nowadays with Hollywood knowing comic books are great source material for movies, comic book characters will always have appeal. Now if only the comic book companies can get back to increasing readership, comic books can be as popular as they once were.

Even as comic properties become more mainstream, there is still very much a distinction between watching a superhero movie and actually reading the comic the character is based upon.

Reading in general (sadly) is no longer something kids want to do today with so many other stimuli around.

There were always be a point, probably around the age of junior high or high school, where reading comics will get you labeled as a geek.

I think comics still have the same social stigma that animation of any kind does. It really doesn't matter how well it's written or how adult themed it is, society still looks down on it like it's only meant for children.

And I think the "Bam!!" of the '60's Batman series is still felt to this day. I've seen plenty of news reports that make reference to that series whenever any kind of comic book story is being presented. That hardly helps either.

60's Tv Batman both helped and hurt the comic fan. Sure it helped in that it brought heroes into the Mainstream. But even when Batman 89 came out, I cant tell you how many people I knew who were moaning about how it was too dark and how they should've made it like the Tv show which was total camp and goofiness. Like Chew said, that stigma has not gone away in the minds of non-comic folks.

Because about 90% of all comics are superhero comics. If 90% of all novels were trashy romance novels, you'd look down on them too.

Some good points here. My two cents which may repeat some of what has already been written:

Print is a dying art form altogether. Newspapers are having a hard time finding young readers. I think that young people still enjoy the concept of the superhero but aren't going to shell out $12 to 18 to read a story. Seriously, today I can go into Best Buy and buy X-Men Legends for $20, get hours of gameplay as my favorite mutant, or buy six comic books or a TPB which I'll read in about an hour. On a good week I can spend those same $20 on two DVDs, and I can spend hours watching them. The economics, plus the format are two big issues with comic books today.

Second, the Big Two have made it all but impossible to get into comic books. With giant crossovers, and a boatload of titles, you can't just start reading comic books. When I started reading comics in the 80s there were three X titles. Uncanny X-Men, X-Factor and New Mutants. I could pick up all three any given month for less than $3. At that point, I knew everything that was going on in Marvel's mutant world. How many titles (and more importantly how much would it cost) would I have to pick up today for that to be the case? I honestly don't know as I've given up on the X titles all together for this reason.

Correct.

I used to read comic book when I was teenager, but around 16-17 I lost interest and really haven't read any since then. Comic book are primarily superhero comics, and superhero comics are primarily written and drawn for a teenage boy audience. If you need evidence, just look at the way female characters are drawn as grotesque objects of sexual fantasy- 2 inch waists, 22 inch legs, and 34DD breasts in clothes that are nothing more than painted nudity.

Aside from that, their convoluted plotting, insistence on continuity over story, and a general immaturity of most of the people (men) writing, drawing, and running them, it's no wonder comic books aren't taken seriously.

*see Manga :shrug:

Which starts a whole new debate, since its accepted in Japanese culture...

I read comics from about 1980 until recently. I've lost interest over the last few years.

Last week I went to the comic shop, and pretty much everything there looked stupid. I opened a few titles for a closer look. The layouts were dull, the art was formulaic, and the stories were like soap operas (everything was terribly important, and the plot didn't advance more than a millimeter).

Bland comics aren't new. But there was a period when people tried harder, and people believed that they could improve comic books. But right now, they're making comics 70s- or 50s-style. They have a low opinion of their audience, and they're looking for the easy dollars, and it shows.

If the people behind comics don't believe in them, why should anyone else?

I think this thread is showing that there isn't one thing that's holding comics down, but rather a collection of many things. When you add the fact that they cost so much compared to other pasttimes with the fact that fewer people read these days, you have a deadly combination.

But even if that wasn't the case, comics would still be held in low regard because not enough people are attempting to show what comics can be. There's nothing to drive a middle aged woman or a teenaged girl to read these books because when they walk into the graphic novel section at B&N, all there is is superhero and manga. And let's face it, that can be overwhelming even for seasoned readers.

Comics need to diversify. Make some drama or romance or comedy, and put those books with the other dramas and romances and comedies on the shelf. Put out some really good stories and get them noticed in papers and magazines. Get a buzz going.

It's going to be a long process, and we're already so much further then we were a few years ago. It won't be long and comics will be held in much higher esteem. We just have to give it time, and support good books, not just the ones we've been reading for 20 years.

A lot of people still don't realize that comic books is not a genre, but a form of entertainment with a full range of genres. Part of it is because of where a large portion of the books are focused and part because of the image the industry has put forth.

Wait, the male character are drawn in the same way, and there are a lot more of them... :)

Look at the Comic Book Guy on Simpsons... an exaggeration, to be sure, but sometimes shockingly close to people we know. That's the general perception of comics, and really the obsessive compulsive collector's mentality, the insane prices we pay for collections that largely sit unread in boxes for years, the fanboy factor... the other day, by wife and I were having dinner with another couple when she mentioned that I liked collecting comics and watching anime, and I cringed because that's so socially unacceptable.

I love sports too (huge USC fan, for example) and it sometimes amazes me how acceptable it is to go all out for a sports team and know all kinds of stats and such, but that's not "geeky," at least not among most guys.

Many, many valid points in this thread.

I'll add that there aren't as many new readers as there once were because comics are pretty hard to find outside of specialty shops. Sure, some of the main titles can be found at Borders and other book chains, but I remember in the early- to mid-'80s finding new DC/Marvel titles on the racks at the corner market or the military base convenience store. An 11-year old riding his skateboard to 7-11 to grab a drink and snack isn't going to find a huge rack of affordable titles to sample.

And regarding the cost of comics, I ALMOST picked up a few titles for the first time in years the other day while at Borders but my jaw nearly hit the floor when I added up the cost. Realized I could buy a $14 novel or $9.99 trade (for Fables, Vol. 1) for the price of about three or four comics. Ridiculous.

There is no comparion between the way men and women are customarily drawn in superhero comics. Men are overly muscled with prominent crotch bulges, but that is a projection of teenage male body idolization, not sexualization. Plus, they usually have a lot more clothes on.

it doesnt make sense. Movies about comic book characters are big cash cows.

You mean to tell me women don't see that as a sex symbol? And Namor never wore that much. Just as an exception to the many, though.

But Star Wars and LOTR movies are big cash cows, but diehard fans are looked at as geeks. I think it's just that superheroes are suited for blockbuster action movies.

About the men and woman clothes thing... the original post said that they had costumes that were little more than painted nudity. That's exactly what the male costumes are like. Not saying that woman aren't objectified by a lot of comic art (I mean, anyone can tell that flipping through the middle of Previews), just that the male costumes are pretty bare too. Original robin, anyone?

As far as manga goes... i do think the reason that manga is so much more popular in Japan is because the genre is so diverse... which is also the reason why so many young adults who wouldn't be caught dead in a comic book store are picking up manga in bookstores.

They may. It's still not the same. You need to look at superhero comics aimed at a gay male audience to see the male version of comic book female objectification.

Plus, no one has ever found Namor hot. No one. Ever.

Besides sue?

No, it's not the same. At all.

Imagine if Superman's costume had little nipple holes and his dick was drawn to be 2 feet long, with a bulge to match. Then you'd be getting closer.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...2/Superman.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Supergirls.jpg

You really don't see any difference? Come on.

I'm with Tracer. Let's face it, for the most part, superhero comics, which dominate the comic landscape, are fantasies for men. Or at least males. Think about it. Young boys want to grow up to save the day like Superman. They want to fight bad guys and be a big hero like Superman. They want to be surrounded by hot women in skimpy clothing like Superman.

I don't think this is the biggest reason that comics are still looked down upon, but it's certainly a big factor.

First of all, I never said he was hot, just that he had tiny clothes on. And I honestly never have really felt like the muscularization had anything to do with gay men. I always felt that the changes we say in all the characters from being slimly drawn to beefy was to appeal to women and try to bring them in(not that I think it was successful).

Thank you. As a gay man, this crap is one of the biggest reasons why I stopped reading superhero comics. Why would I want to read this stuff?

It's unfortunate that an art form as dynamic and with so much possibility as comic books is saddled with this teenage boy wish fullfillment crap as 90% of its output. It is the biggest reason they're not taken seriously.

Tracer, well said.

The ripped male heroes aren't drawn that way to appeal to women--they're drawn that way to appeal to most men's fantasties about what they wish their own bodies looked like. Comics are typically fantasy stories for boys, not girls.

I don't think there's a girl on the planet that picks up the latest issue of Superman because of his well-drawn abs and glutes, but I guarantee scores of males picked up Fathom primarily because of the way what's-his-name draws women (with hug tits, tiny wastes, bikini-like costumes and doe eyes).

I don't think that that's out of any respect for comics. It's like the current trend of using pop tunes from between 1965 and 1985 for television commercials. "Hey, some creative people came up with some good stuff in the past that sold well. We can use that instead of trying to create something new."

The best we can hope for is that the characters get treated with respect, the way Warner treats Superman and Bugs Bunny. They don't want to ruin a character, because they want to keep making money off of them for decades to come.

Hey, Tracer, thanks for saying why superhero comics don't appeal to gay boys. It had never occurred to me. And it's pretty damn obvious once it's pointed out.

This is about all I know about comics for gays:

http://leonardandlarry.com/images/logo-color-main.jpg

Yeah, a lot of people think the superhero genre is synonymous with the comic medium. I think a lot of that is a direct result of Seduction of the Innocent and the resulting fallout on the fledgeling industry.

I do think it's getting better. There are a lot of diverse books out there right now that aren't superhero books that are getting recognition both inside and outside of the industry.

It aggravates me, because I grew up reading superhero comics. I go to a lot of superhero movies. I really want to like them. But for the most part, I just can't.

And it's not just the insistence on writing and drawing the books to appeal to the teenage boy attitude- it's the lack of coherence, the reliance on spectacle instead of writing, etc.

Also, I nearly fell over when I went to buy the new Buffy comic and saw that it cost $2.99.

What it boils down to is that if you tell good stories, you'll get new readers. But let's face it, there aren't a lot of really important, emotional comics out there. My wife has read some of my favorite comics, the ones I think she'd enjoy, but they don't do it for her. They just aren't as powerful as a good movie or a good book. Not that they can't be, just that I haven't found the ones that work for her yet. So until I find something really solid that makes her feel something, she'll still see comics as a lesser art form.

Keep in mind too that reading comics takes some adjustment. I mean, we've all been reading them for years so it sounds funny to think that you'd have to learn how to read a comic. But it's true. For someone who's never read a comic, it can be difficult. Panel to panel, word balloons, sequencing, certain icons or facial expressions...we take it for granted, but for a newbie, it might be something that's hard to adjust to.

http://www.transmogrifier.org/ch/comics/92/07/22.gif

Kinda sums up the perception of most comic art.

I don't think you understand the point of that particular strip.

Just curious, what did you give her to read?

Well, she reads all of my stuff. :D

But I've let her read Blankets. That turned out to be too big for a first book. She liked it, but said it didn't grab her emotionally like the same story told in prose would have.

I tried to let her in on Love as a Foreign Language and that missed the mark pretty wide.

She also read some Postcards stories, which she liked. That's cool, but they're also much, much shorter, take up no time, and, well, I'm involved with that book. So who knows how much she got into them.

Sometimes I'll be reading a superhero comic in bed and she'll just start laughing. I'll ask her why, and she'll just point out a pose in one panel or another. "Why is that woman sticking her ass AND her boobs?" That tells me I have to be pretty selective when trying to find something for her.

There are some valid points raised in this thread, but I think comics are still looked down upon mainly because they aren't read. People still think they are mainly those simple stories they read when they were little. And if a person does go into a comic shop and happens to pick up an X-Men comic or something it does look pretty ridiculous.

Personally, I like that the heroes in comics are handsome and the women are pretty. I have no problem with that, but sometimes when I'm reading a book the outfits that some of the women wear are just embarrassing cheesy. Which is a shame, because I think it detracts from some otherwise solid stories at times.

However, don't give gay men and women a total pass though. There are whole communities online of girls who lust after heroes. And the ComicQueers podcast is full of off-color remarks about how so and so is fucking hot -- and I'm sure they aren't alone. I'm not even trying to excuse the oversexualization of women in comics as I think it's tacky and stupid. And there is a distinct difference in these cases as the people who fancy male heroes are no different than people who fancy characters from a tv show who are attractive or sexy -- whereas the female heroes are designed to look like fuck dolls.

This doesn't even take into account the other genres in comics that produce stories that are just as good (if not better) than the output of proper novels, movies, or tv. People just have no desire to try these books which is sad. Hell, if you can't get people who actually buy comics to read some of these titles, what in the hell chance is there for people who don't naturally like comics to find them?

I have no doubt in my mind that BKV could be one of America's most popular writers if there was just a way to force people to try his stuff. Those naysayers who say "comics are for kids". Or people who lind mindfuck bendy stories being force fed Casanova. How many people would like Y, or DMZ, or Preacher, or Strangers in Paradise, or Ex Machina, or Local, or any of some of the incredible comics that exist if only they were more prevalent in our society? I understand that there is a slight barrier of entry to a lot of comics with tights, but these types of titles are just ready and waiting to be read and enjoyed.

But of course people are only going to flock to these stories when they're turned into movies.

Readers of this thread might find this blog entry amusing. This one too.

As far as women go, ive got a good friend hooked on some of my stuff. Her first read was Identity Crisis, and she got hooked into Sue's storyline. After that she was interested in Omac Project, and Infinite Crisis. Now her current reads are Witchblade, Supergirl, Powergirl, and Mary Jane.