Oooooh, that's the one I gave her, not LaaFL. She didn't like it at all. I thought it was so fantastic it's crazy, but my wife...not so much.

I hear you TB. It's sad that Males who're insecure with their own sexuality can't just deal with stuff like this without becoming nasty about it.

Wait a sec. Not wanting to see another guy's package is now considered homophobia? Sure, Superman has dick (that is, if he existed - actually, since he's alien and usually portrayed so asexually, I always assumed he was smooth like a Ken doll), but it's not something I dwell on. But I never realized it was because I was homophobic...

Well, I don't happen to spend a lot of time dwelling on the fictional genitalia of fictional characters, so I know what you're saying.

I'm responding to the attitude of some people whereby they will happily read books featuring female characters with huge tits and glowing vaginas but freak out if a male character is drawn with a bulge.

I know, I was just kidding around. Though back when Watchmen first came out, I wondered why Dr.Manhattan had such a small dick...

Huge boobs I don't mind - the men have equally large chests. But I no more want to see men with a bulge then I want to see women with "camel lips".

Sorry, but in response to the original question, I don't think they are looked down upon because of the way women are drawn. I'm sure TB will set me straight though(so to speak).

Comics aren't only accepted, they are thriving in Japan. And for a lot of the opposite reasons why they aren't here-

-there are a HUGE amount of genres available, comic stories aimed at men, women, teens (boys AND girls), young kids. Comics for geeks, jocks (how many basketball themed comics are published here, for example?), business men, pervs, you name it. It's not some kind of urban myth about seeing a grown man in a business suit reading a comic on the train in Japan, I've seen it many times.

-they are CHEAP and found everywhere. Every newsstand and convenience store in Japan has stacks of big thick comics (many have hundreds of pages) that sell for around $2-5.00 each. These aren't flimsy 32 page comics that can be read in 15 minutes (but then again they are mostly in black and white printed on cheap paper). They are sold and marketed as impulse items, and since so many people take public transportation, they sell well (this may help explain their popularity in Japan too)

-no cheap gimmicks, multiple covers, etc aimed at speculators and completist collectors. Most comics sold are basic and completely disposable. I'm sure that there is a segment of the readership that collect comics, but unlike here, they represent a small percent of the comic reading audience.


Anyway, as long as the US market focuses primarily on one tired genre that is aimed soley at teen and adult males, things won't get any better. There is a huge market out there that is mostly being ignored (women, girls, kids). Not marketing better and more of a selection of comics to young kids (and not at ridiculous prices!) is especially shortsighted because they could be the future audience for comics, but ya gotta hook 'em when they are young. ;) Unless the publishers make some serious changes, things are going to get worse, especially because printed media as a whole isn't what it once was.

Since that thick B&W manga only runs upwards of $5, I wonder what the cover price would be on a monthly color comic if they returned to newsprint?

Or are we far too spoiled by the good (expensive) paper?

manga prices in Japan are much cheaper for a few reasons:

1) increased circulation
2) smaller total area to ship out to (publishing and distribution costs are enormous in the US, not sure if it's entirely due to the near monopoly that Diamond enjoys, but also has to factor in shipping to all parts of the US).

I agree that the breadth of material and the reliance on public transportation (you can't read and drive... or at least you shouldn't) are huge factors to popularity of manga in Japan as well.

In general, though, with the current shipping mechanism in place, I'm not sure how much cheaper they can make comics... the whole system needs to be revamped.

So let me ask this because it seems to me it's a "Chicken or the Egg" kinda thing...

I'm trying to ask this in a non-loaded way but forgive me if it still seems that way...Are Comic companies, the Big 2 and all the others, not putting out stuff you guys mention because they're ignoring what people want, or are they not putting it out because people don't show an interest when they try to?

Depends...
for making comics cheaper: I don't think they can afford to, as I outlined above

For marketing mainly superheroes and not diversifying into other genres: I think if they could make a lot of money with a diverse lineup, they would. I'm not sure if it's because it's what their main audience expects, but superheroes are their bread and butter, and are what sells. Someone here touts something like Irredeemable Ant Man as something different, but it's failing largely because it doesn't feature any x-men. That's why we get so many issue 1's (because orders are always higher for them), why we have so many books on the same few heroes, why there are so few newly created heroes that are considered "draws." In Japan young boys have their shonen, superhero-like comics, but then there are comics about salarymen and policemen and firemen and samurai and shopping and boardgames and cooking and whatnot. I'd like to see DC put out a comic about cooking... it'd fail terribly.

Vertigo was a revelation, because it created a separate imprint for DC to do offbeat, mostly non superhero books. DC/Wildstorm's CMX line, despite the censorship issues with Tenjho Tenge, is largely shoujo, or girl's manga. The problem may be that people instantly associate DC and Marvel with superheroes... I don't think CMX has anywhere near the presence of Viz or Tokyopop in bookstores.

I think it's also been proven that because it's a mostly male audience, the big two (and others) will cater almost exclusively to that audience. So the audience is male and expects superheroes, and that's who they try to sell to, so they don't expand their audience, etc. etc. I'm guilty of that myself... while my manga purchases are pretty diverse, for American comics I collect superheroes almost exclusively.

The fact that you think a huge chest on a man is equal to gigantic tits shows that you're just not getting it. But, whatever, I'm just going around in circles at this point.

Interesting post. :up:

I don't think it's a chicken / egg problem. It's a vicious circle. The companies focussed on superhero comics because that was what sold best. But by abandoning the other genres, they lost the chance to attract new readers who aren't looking for superheros. Without the potential readers for other stuff, they became more focussed.

Harlequin Romances make good money selling disposable books that come out every month. They're not much different from magazines or comics. I don't think that Marvel has any chance of attracting those readers by publishing romance comics. Romance readers don't even look in their direction any more. Why should they? There hasn't been a romance comic for decades.

I think you hit the nail on the head. The audience has been groomed for superhero books. I'm not trying to act like I'm above it, because they make up about 70% of my reading.

But just like people come to comics for capes, like Nick said, that by stopping other genres they lost those audiences probably for good. So when comics do put out a good western, crime, romance, or whatever book -- there is no one left who would be interested in those titles. And I'm talking mainly DC and Marvel here. I know the indies have been putting out diverse titles for quite a while, but getting people to read those is a whole different issue.

I agree that the "Superhero" aspect alienated people from comics. Also, whoever said Superman doesn't have a dick because he's alien....he IS an alien, but NOT a martian..haha. The Superman comics have made numerous references to Clark and Lois having sex......unless they got it on Lesbo style hahaha

I guess you never read Watterson's The Calvin and Hobbes Tenth Anniversary Book wherein he states (and I'm paraphrasing) that you can dress comics up and call them graphic novels, but they're still pretty stupid.

Please explain how I have missed the point.

Didn't some magazine like Teen Cosmopolitan or something start publishing translated shoujo awhile back, and it was quite popular with the readers? And that showed that there was an untapped market for girls comics if the publishers and potential readers could just "find" each other?

I thought you were trying to make the opposite point by using that strip. :|

But shoujo comics are doing rather well here already. The translated manga market in bookstores seem to be drawing in a bunch of female readers, and as I mentioned earlier, DC publishes some of them under their CMX imprint (no idea how their sales are compared to Viz/tokyopop).

Now would this work in a monthly, traditional comic style book instead of collections? I have no idea, but isn't Marvel starting something like this? Haven't they also started to branch out in adapting fantasy novels? I still see distribution as a problem... will women go to comic book stores instead of book stores?

Are you sure that you're the person "not getting it"?

Both are perceived are qualities that make the person more attractive to others. Neither relate to sexual organs. And, like huge muscles and impossibly thin waistlines, both are unrealistic body images.

Do you really think that the common standards of decency equate depicting large boobs and large penises? Really? If you overheard in conversion "she's got huge tits", would you equate it to overhearing "he's got a huge cock"?

The overrealistic body image presented in the form of male superheroes has much more to do with male body idolization, not sexualization. You cannot say that about the grotesquely overinflated tits of female characters- they are primarily objects of sexual desire. The vast majority of superhero comics are drawn by straight men, and straight men are usually not interested in sexualizing the male form.

I'm sorry if you refuse to see it, but that's the way it is.

Well, I admit that I'm not exactly the target audience for shoujo, so I wasn't aware of the inroads they have made here. :lol: But that's cool. I agree about distribution though. Comic book stores still have a stigma of not being female friendly (I'm sure a teen girl who may be interested in shoujo would avoid such places like the plague), so book store distribution would probably be the best.

Well, I'd have to agree that we are talking about two different things.

If you go back to my original post, I was referring to the discussion about people being called homophobic for not wanting to see evidence of male genitalia in comics. I stated that I didn't want to see evidence of male genitalia either, but didn't think that that made me homophobic because I didn't want to see evidence of female genitalia either, "glowing" or otherwise.

I don't have a problem with artists sexualizing either gender as long as they keep the genitals out of it. I hope that you're not saying that the only way that a gay male artist can sexualize a male character is by showing his bulge. I still stand by my statement that it's ok for some people to equate showing a bulge with showing cameltoe and that those same people can be offended (without being homophobic) if either is shown.

And, if I wasn't clear, I agree that comics are looked down by many because of the way that they portray women. But I don't think anybody would suggest that they would gain more mainstream acceptance if artists started letting the crotch shadows fly.