First of all, I never said he was hot, just that he had tiny clothes on. And I honestly never have really felt like the muscularization had anything to do with gay men. I always felt that the changes we say in all the characters from being slimly drawn to beefy was to appeal to women and try to bring them in(not that I think it was successful).

Thank you. As a gay man, this crap is one of the biggest reasons why I stopped reading superhero comics. Why would I want to read this stuff?

It's unfortunate that an art form as dynamic and with so much possibility as comic books is saddled with this teenage boy wish fullfillment crap as 90% of its output. It is the biggest reason they're not taken seriously.

Tracer, well said.

The ripped male heroes aren't drawn that way to appeal to women--they're drawn that way to appeal to most men's fantasties about what they wish their own bodies looked like. Comics are typically fantasy stories for boys, not girls.

I don't think there's a girl on the planet that picks up the latest issue of Superman because of his well-drawn abs and glutes, but I guarantee scores of males picked up Fathom primarily because of the way what's-his-name draws women (with hug tits, tiny wastes, bikini-like costumes and doe eyes).

I don't think that that's out of any respect for comics. It's like the current trend of using pop tunes from between 1965 and 1985 for television commercials. "Hey, some creative people came up with some good stuff in the past that sold well. We can use that instead of trying to create something new."

The best we can hope for is that the characters get treated with respect, the way Warner treats Superman and Bugs Bunny. They don't want to ruin a character, because they want to keep making money off of them for decades to come.

Hey, Tracer, thanks for saying why superhero comics don't appeal to gay boys. It had never occurred to me. And it's pretty damn obvious once it's pointed out.

This is about all I know about comics for gays:

Yeah, a lot of people think the superhero genre is synonymous with the comic medium. I think a lot of that is a direct result of Seduction of the Innocent and the resulting fallout on the fledgeling industry.

I do think it's getting better. There are a lot of diverse books out there right now that aren't superhero books that are getting recognition both inside and outside of the industry.

It aggravates me, because I grew up reading superhero comics. I go to a lot of superhero movies. I really want to like them. But for the most part, I just can't.

And it's not just the insistence on writing and drawing the books to appeal to the teenage boy attitude- it's the lack of coherence, the reliance on spectacle instead of writing, etc.

Also, I nearly fell over when I went to buy the new Buffy comic and saw that it cost $2.99.

What it boils down to is that if you tell good stories, you'll get new readers. But let's face it, there aren't a lot of really important, emotional comics out there. My wife has read some of my favorite comics, the ones I think she'd enjoy, but they don't do it for her. They just aren't as powerful as a good movie or a good book. Not that they can't be, just that I haven't found the ones that work for her yet. So until I find something really solid that makes her feel something, she'll still see comics as a lesser art form.

Keep in mind too that reading comics takes some adjustment. I mean, we've all been reading them for years so it sounds funny to think that you'd have to learn how to read a comic. But it's true. For someone who's never read a comic, it can be difficult. Panel to panel, word balloons, sequencing, certain icons or facial expressions...we take it for granted, but for a newbie, it might be something that's hard to adjust to.

Kinda sums up the perception of most comic art.

I don't think you understand the point of that particular strip.

Just curious, what did you give her to read?

Well, she reads all of my stuff.

But I've let her read Blankets. That turned out to be too big for a first book. She liked it, but said it didn't grab her emotionally like the same story told in prose would have.

I tried to let her in on Love as a Foreign Language and that missed the mark pretty wide.

She also read some Postcards stories, which she liked. That's cool, but they're also much, much shorter, take up no time, and, well, I'm involved with that book. So who knows how much she got into them.

Sometimes I'll be reading a superhero comic in bed and she'll just start laughing. I'll ask her why, and she'll just point out a pose in one panel or another. "Why is that woman sticking her ass AND her boobs?" That tells me I have to be pretty selective when trying to find something for her.

There are some valid points raised in this thread, but I think comics are still looked down upon mainly because they aren't read. People still think they are mainly those simple stories they read when they were little. And if a person does go into a comic shop and happens to pick up an X-Men comic or something it does look pretty ridiculous.

Personally, I like that the heroes in comics are handsome and the women are pretty. I have no problem with that, but sometimes when I'm reading a book the outfits that some of the women wear are just embarrassing cheesy. Which is a shame, because I think it detracts from some otherwise solid stories at times.

However, don't give gay men and women a total pass though. There are whole communities online of girls who lust after heroes. And the ComicQueers podcast is full of off-color remarks about how so and so is fucking hot -- and I'm sure they aren't alone. I'm not even trying to excuse the oversexualization of women in comics as I think it's tacky and stupid. And there is a distinct difference in these cases as the people who fancy male heroes are no different than people who fancy characters from a tv show who are attractive or sexy -- whereas the female heroes are designed to look like fuck dolls.

This doesn't even take into account the other genres in comics that produce stories that are just as good (if not better) than the output of proper novels, movies, or tv. People just have no desire to try these books which is sad. Hell, if you can't get people who actually buy comics to read some of these titles, what in the hell chance is there for people who don't naturally like comics to find them?

I have no doubt in my mind that BKV could be one of America's most popular writers if there was just a way to force people to try his stuff. Those naysayers who say "comics are for kids". Or people who lind mindfuck bendy stories being force fed Casanova. How many people would like Y, or DMZ, or Preacher, or Strangers in Paradise, or Ex Machina, or Local, or any of some of the incredible comics that exist if only they were more prevalent in our society? I understand that there is a slight barrier of entry to a lot of comics with tights, but these types of titles are just ready and waiting to be read and enjoyed.

But of course people are only going to flock to these stories when they're turned into movies.

Readers of this thread might find this blog entry amusing. This one too.

As far as women go, ive got a good friend hooked on some of my stuff. Her first read was Identity Crisis, and she got hooked into Sue's storyline. After that she was interested in Omac Project, and Infinite Crisis. Now her current reads are Witchblade, Supergirl, Powergirl, and Mary Jane.

Ever get a good look at the dregs that shop at LCS? Enough said....

Yeah, because giving almost every single female superhero breasts twice as large as her head isn't "pretty darn creepy". Give me a fucking break.

Comics are looked down upon for the same reason that horror movies and sci fi are looked down upon. The crap to greatness ratio is tilted very heavily toward crap. There are amazing comics out there, just like there are amazing horror films out there, but for every Sandman, Pride of Baghdad, or Fables you have about 10,000,000 Bad girl fighting evil space tyranosaur comics. And the debate that "men are drawn the same way as woman are drawn" so it's ok, is not right. The men are drawn in such a way where the main emphasis is on their power, the woman are where the main emphasis is on them being sexually attractive. That's the difference.

I don't know, the whole "Comic Girls are drawn Sexy and it's wrong" and "The men look like what young males want to look like" is a tough one. Is it true? Ok, sure. It's true. But I don't think they would draw them that way if someone didn't want that. They know their audience. TV shows like Dawson's Creek, The OC, BH: 90210, and other have sexy young men and women but no one seems to have a problem with that. They do it because they know a certain kind of viewer will be attracted to that type of thing on their show.

I see lotsa girls in my Comic Shop and they don't seem to bothered by what they see and read. I'm sure if non-hetero male and female numbers suddenly bloomed then I'm sure we'd see them catering to those tastes. Untill then what else can they do?

Yeah, big tits. Fucking creepy

Kinda cliche but I'd offer up Strangers in Paradise, maybe Sandman, Fables (that's twice I pimp Fables this week), and Box Office Poison (ditto). My wife doesn't read. Anything. So comics are out. But I have another lady friend who has given these books glowing reviews.

I just htink they are silly and stupid.

It's funny you mention some of these, because they're on my list for her to try. She has to be in a rare mood to give 'em a read, but I'll get there. I just need to find what works and give her more of that same look and feel.

That whole blog post had a disturbing undercurrent of homophobia (oh noes! Superman has a dick! I can't think about that!) mixed in with its heavy double standard.

Drawing female characters like fuck dolls (thanks for that term boredsilly) is okay, but as soon as a male character is drawn even a little bit more to parity it's "'pretty darn creepy". It would be funny if it weren't so disturbing and creepy.

Blankets is a daunting first read... if she's into something shorter, maybe something like "12 Reasons why I love her", 12 short vingettes that form a larger story.