bishop2knight

There's a fun little letter to comic fans out there that I think you'll all enjoy. Based on some of the threads we have running here at the talk, I think you'll see where this guy is coming from. Of course, the article is too long to quote here, so you'll just have to go and read it yourself.

Letter to Comic Fans

Bronkster

22 pages of Wolverine date-raping Foggy Nelson? Heck, I'd buy that.

slop101

I was just gonna say the same thing, only if it was a 12-issue story-line, I'd wait for the trade.

brainee

For the most part I agree. Complaints don't mean anything to publishers, unless there are dollars (or lack thereof) to back up the case. Single issues written for trades, once good books that are now crappy, cross-overs that force you to buy more books than you want to get the story, too much advertising, erratic publishing schedules ... if you don't like it, it won't change if people keep buying.

One point I disagree with is the part about books written for children. I do think there should be comic options for children, because unless you get the next generation into it the medium will stagnate (and possibly die). But since I'm not a child (or have children), it's not reasonable to expect me to buy these kinds of books to support them.

fujishig

I'm definitely guilty of this, to some degree. While I no longer buy many monthly comics, I did support Supergirl for much longer than I should have because I have liked the character historically.

Comics is a weird entity. Take continuity, for example. The easiest way to get new readers is to chuck continuity out the window for the most part and not have convoluted storylines that have to take into account every appearance by the character in the last 30 years. But existing comic fans (myself included) eat this stuff up. Look at the Ultimate Marvel Universe, which I no longer believe is any easier than the existing marvel universe for a new fan to jump into. All these crossovers won't help the casual fan either. Having stopped collecting most mainstream Marvel Universe titles, I get really confused when I pick up a new trade that draws my interest. I think I picked up a trade of Excalibur, which was a prelude to House of M, and I had no idea what was going on. DC isn't exempt from this either, as I doubt many casual fans could really get into Infinite Crisis or 52.

As for kids comics, I wish there were other venues to sell them through. I'm really happy that Disney comics are again being published through Gladstone, but it's not something that most superhero or Vertigo loving comic fans will even look at. I wish they were sold at places like the Disney Store or supermarkets or Walmart checkout stands instead. And stuff like Leave it to Chance and Tellos seem to be largely ignored, even with stellar creative teams behind them.

boredsilly

I agree with you and further his argument kind of drives me insane. I see it all the time, and it makes me so mad because it simply isn't true. There are TONS of options of comics for kids. And often times they are of a really high quality too!

For sub 10 yr old kids, there is various (safe) manga, the johnny DC & Animated Adventures books, Marvel's Adventures line, Owly, Sonic the Hedgehog style books, Spider-Girl (I think), a slew of books based on cartoons, Akiko, etc. For kids a bit older Ultimate Spidey and X-men seem like they would be fine. Almost any DC book, and most marvel books. Not to mention all of the classic stories that are out there from Marvel and DC, or things like Bone, Hero Bear and the Kid, Blue Monday, tons of manga, Scrooge books....I mean lets get real.

Just because the medium isn't 100% safe for kids, or things like Preacher, Wanted, and Ultimates exists, does not mean there isn't stuff for kids to read. I think people just make this argument like they say "girls don't read comics" before ever really thinking about it. [b]fujishig[/] is right in raising the point that the issue is getting these types of books in kids hands. They do exist though. Jeff Smith (or his agent) has the right idea getting Bone trades included in elementary and middle school scholastic programs. That's a start. Every book fair should have a comic table. If kids saw this stuff, they would devour it.

fujishig

Well, the "girls don't read comics" does seem to be true, but I think it's more of a subset of the "only geeks read comics" mindset that plagues comic books as a whole. Manga is a little bit different because it's caught on in the teenage market (especially in bookstores), it's relatively cheaper because it's basically just translated material (3 bucks for a 22 page comic filled with ads, or 8 bucks for a 100+ page collection), and it has a plethora of books made primarily for girls. But traditional comic book stores won't order them because that audience just does not come into comic book stores, similar to kids books, so it's a vicious circle, isn't it? I mean, how many copies of Marvel's Adventures does your LCS order, and how many are sold to kids?

On a side note, do you know what drives me crazy? I know there are a lot of adult toy collectors, but I still believe kids buy action figures. So why do they put the most inane, continuity-laden comic books as pack-ins with action figures. Not that I care much, but I recently bought a Superman figure that came with some issue of Action comics that made absolutely no sense without knowing a ton about recent Superman continuity. What a great way to get a kid to read a comic, and it's wasted.

The colorized Bone collections in kid's book order clubs is genius, though, I have to get my wife (who's a teacher) to get some for her classroom.

boredsilly

I used to believe it too, but I just don't anymore. Surely, they are the minority of comic readership, but I think its a bit more complicated as to just how many are reading and what they are reading. The split on women and men who read something like Civil War/Planet Hulk/ or Infinite Crisis is probably something like 10-20% female 80-90%male? Just my guess. But then get to a title like Birds of Prey or Alias and maybe more women read that kind of mainstream book then say your regular Batman title. Then when you get to stuff like Optic Nerve, Strangers in Paradise, Fables, Love and Rockets, Blankets, DMZ, Supermarket, Y the Last Man, and Ex Machina - whats the split then? As a whole, more dudes read comics, but I think the ratios get more interesting when you look at the different types of books out there.

Yeah, that's the sad part. Especially where kids are concerned, that comic shops aren't "destinations" like they used to be for us, along with arcades, corner stores, and pizza joints.

Heh, I've thought the same thing. Those should ALWAYS be gateway books. Fuck the collectors (that would be me). Put in a book that makes sense with that character, but try and have it lead some where. 9 times out of ten it won't, but you never know, right?

fujishig

I guess the disparity there is that I was thinking of girls as in younger women, and most of the titles you mentioned are more adult themed stuff. I'm sure Vertigo has a larger female base than most of the superhero genre. But there really are few young girl-specific comics other than maybe some of the Archie titles and crossover books like Uncle Scrooge. I could be wrong, as I'm not a young (or old) girl, so I'm not exactly the target audience. But manga is one place where there is a lot of shoujo stuff, and I tend to believe that's why there's such a large female fanbase for it compared to American comics. Well, that and the whole "boy's love" genre that I don't understand.

Leafing through the majority of the Previews catalog shows how male-oriented the industry is... if I gave the Previews catalog to my wife, she'd instantly be turned off by 80% of the content there, and probably stop my collecting altogether!

boredsilly

Ah, yeah I guess we were talking about two different things there. Yeah, I wouldn't imagine hardly any young girls read comics now. I wonder if they ever really did? With the young, it always is portrayed as a boys hobby, with girls seeming to find there way to books a bit later. But I'm really just talking out of my ass now, I have no facts to back any of this up.

Even though they aren't "comics" as I know and like them, I sure am glad kids these days are at least reading manga. Sadly, I don't see a lot of crossover happening there, but sequential art is sequential art.

bishop2knight

I agree here. I don't knock Manga at all, and I'm actually starting to read some to see what it's all about. And if kids are reading, then I'm all for it. I think that Manga will continue to grow, and that somewhere down the line, American comics will merge more and more with that style and begin gaining a bigger audience.

I know it's a terrible correlation, but look at the music industry in the 90s and how rap/hip hop started to be heard in more mainstream music and even rock. That blend brought that rap sound into rock households, and that rock sound into rap households.

At some point, American comics will see what the kids are reading and want a piece of that pie and will figure out what it is they really want. It's already happening to some degree, but I honestly believe that's the only way to get kids interested.

Well, either that, or actually start creating comics that don't suck.

Superboy

Well, Marvel and DC have printed Manga sized-versions of titles like Spider-Girl and whatnot. Still, it's the idea behind the stories, not necessarily the format.

That article more or less summarizes my feelings about the state of the comics industry, and my general retreat from mainstream comics in the monthly format.

bishop2knight

Yeah, this is what I meant. The story, the themes, the characters...these are what kids like. Sure, the styles are different too, but as you pointed out, taking that style and putting it on Spider-Man doesn't cut it.

boredsilly

I do give Marvel credit for making books like Sentinel, Legend of the Spider-Clan, and Runaways which I think would appeal to the sensibilities of manga readers.

The Bus

I completely agree with this. It's also the reason I stopped buying monthlies in the late 90's. Only TPBs now. I don't even think a single one of them is a "traditional" superhero book except for Runaways.

fujishig

Sorry for the double post, I think when my browser reset the session it resubmitted the post. Weird.

Anyway, I do think that books like Runaways, and even the manga-style Mary Jane book are great crossover books. The problem seems to be that the bookstores where these kids go to read manga are dominated by Viz and Tokyopop. Even DC's CMX manga label (which has other problems, including censorship) has a hard time getting bookshelf space.

And the problem still remains that most of the core superhero titles from both companies seem to be nearly incomprehensible to someone coming in off the street. For instance, I just read Battle for Bludhaven, that Infinite Crisis "bridge" book. In it, they introduce (I think) the Atomic Knights, the core of the new Freedom Fighters, Firebrand, Father Time, some Golem, and reintroduce the Force of July and the Nuclear Family, two villain teams from the old 80's Batman and the Outsiders book. They also have some team of nuclear villains, some major Bludhaven badguy that is worshipped like a God, and throw in Captain Atom, fresh from a stint in the Wildstorm Universe, and put him in the Monarch costume, perhaps as a nod to the whole "Captain Atom was supposed to be Monarch until we shoehorned Hawk into the role back in Armageddon 2000." I know this wasn't necessarily a book that is supposed to bring in new readers, but even as a longtime DC fan I was very confused...

bishop2knight

Hmm, that's interesting. Fujishig just posted a double post 3 hours and 20 minutes apart.

Shiv Shankly

For manga readers though, they're unlikely to even be aware of those titles, it seems to me, given a previous ignorance of what Marvel does, plus, all those books are probably going to be shelved with the superhero stuff at Borders or Barnes & Noble. The vast majority of manga readers would never set foot in the typical comic shop, if said shop even stocks manga.

If Marvel and DC want readers beyond the entrenched male, 20-50 crowd they already have, then they need a total change in philosophy and attitude. Making books with scantily clad female sex objects is never going to appeal to girls (much less using rape as a big story element), and the focus on continuity kills off any hope of new readers. Not mention that you can buy a volume of manga, as someone has mentioned, for about $7-10 for about 300 pages of material. Even graphic novels from the big two can't match that.

As someone who grew up reading superhero stuff, I've largely switched over to manga, in terms of "new" material. What I like about manga is the amazing range of material; I read a number different titles, and they're all pretty different. Plus, they all have finite stories, with beginnings, middles, and ends, unlike superhero books that go on ad infinitum, plaguing readers with too much continuity, ret-conning and characters never really changing or aging much if at all. Spider-Man has always been my favorite superhero character, but at some point you either have to do something new with the character (something other than giving him radioactive, cancerous spunk) or find a way to finish it.

Plus, manga (as well as some European stuff I've started looking at) is like exploring a new world. To be honest, superheroes have been done to death for me.

Superboy

Actually I have seen comics in the manga format in bookstores like borders in the Manga section. It's also right next to the graphic novels section. And most comics shops these days don't carry manga anymore after big bookstores started carrying them, because they could not compete with that level of business. At least, that's what all my LCSs told me...Sessa can probably verify this.

You've just opened up several cans of worms right there - first of all, female readership for manga is, how shall we say, much more divergent from the mainstream than the current comics industry will allow. Unless you want to see Robin and Superboy making out in the next Teen Titans, don't bet on a sudden gain of female readers.

Continuity exits no matter what, and will always exist...it's storytelling quality that really counts, and blaming the inaccessibility of a comic on the continuity is just a weak scapegoat by a bad writer.

Manga is much less content per page - that's why their volumes are already so thick, because they take longer to tell a story.

Well, I think some major shifts in the comics industry in the last 10 years have really reflected your sentiments. Comics that have exploded on the market like non other and drawn new readers are taking a more "classic" and "visionary" approach to comics, like the Ultimate Titles and the All Star Line, as well as monthly titles like New and Astonishing X-men. They contain the essence of the character in a more accessible format.

I don't think the genre is tired at all. I mean just when we were reaching the cusp of the post-modern superhero, you can pick up All-Star Superman and enjoy a title filled with the type of imagination from the Mort Weisinger that once thought to have completely dried up - and moreover, was concluded to be adolescent and limited.

Shiv Shankly

I'll only respond to this point as it's all I have time for, but if you're arguing that female manga readers only read the yaoi titles (i.e. boys love stuff) then you're way off the mark. There is a definite yaoi crowd out there, but it's certainly not indicative of manga as a whole.

Superboy

Yeah but that crowd is effing huge. And they love fanfic with marvel/dc characters.

boredsilly

That's an error of looking at comics with caps as American comics in general. There is a lot of diversity in American comics, sure nothing like that found in manga, but it's definitely there. Same with finite stories.

That is one thing about manga that I do like. How they aren't afraid of creating a new "franchise" and even if its popular ending it when the story is done. I really wish I could find the right manga to try.