Sessa17

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkestPhoenix

I don't think so.

DC owning Marvel?

I know it is funny b/c it's so obvious I didn't really need to point it out. Marvel is indeed a very laughable company right now.


This is of an example of the undeniable truth that DC is dictating what the standards among major publishing are. DC has 1 of the 2 biggest events of the year in IC, w/ top notch creators & marvel can't stand the attention so they come up with 2 nobodies & even try to hop on the bandwagaon by throwing "Identity" into the title. The book fizzled & most forgot it already. Dissasembled was yet another example of this. Marvel's answer to Rebirth. A huge tragic event that was nothing more than a lame marketing scheme. Pointless deaths that made absolutely no sense only done to create buzz & launch a new even more pointless #1 for a desperate sales boost.

Quote:

War Games, despite the fact that I read them all, did NOT kick any form of ass

Damn, OK. You got me there. It definitely did suck but even Babe Ruth struck out every now & then.

Quote:

New Avengers is awesome as hell.

See my above statement. Far from amazing & only a marvel zombie would think this after just one issue. Gee. . . what does Marvel need more of. . . I don't know . . . another comic with Spider-man in it. . . oh wait. . . how about Wolverine also. And rather than use 1 of the 1000 amazing writers out there, let's put Bendis on another title. Very orginal.

Quote:

Secret War would be better if they came out with it bi-monthly as opposed to this quarterly bullshit.

Another example of Marvel's icompetency & lack of creativity. Back to the well with the Secret War idea & name. A comic solicited as a monthly b/c they could care less about their fans & don't actually get a mini-series finished before soliciting it so instead it comes out once every 4 months & Marvel then changes it's solicitations. And again, Bendis.

Why don't you replace the words "favorite" with "best" b/c Bendis is the single most overrated writer in all of comics. Powers is amazing, I give him that. Daredevil is horrendous. Everything Bendis writes is exactly the same....

"Exactly the same?

- Yes, exactly the same.

What do you mean exactly the same?

-I mean they are exactly the same.

You mean the same?

- Yes, the same.

I see.

- You see.

Yes, fuck.

- Fuck?

Fuckin' Fuck.

That is everything the guy writes. Same style & same pointless dialogue that somehow people are fooled into thinking it is creative or smart. He can't come up with a good ending if his life depended on it & he takes 6 issues to tell what could be told easily in one issue.


Again, words from a Marvel zombie. I do realize many have been let down with the Lee/Azz run, but I think it's amazing. It's different, it's something Marvel wouldn't do. People are scared when they see something different from on a superman book. They instantly thought we would get another Hush. A mindless, pointless superhero story with is just an excuse to get Jim Lee to draw every single character Superman has so DC can market a toy line out of them. Instead we are given a character piece, a very cerebral, esoteric story with a slow build that the attention defecit superhero audience complains is boring.

It's a shame b/c it happens that to of the best comics of 2004 were both by Morrison & both happened to be published by DC. Seaguy & We3. Must be something about Marvel that brings out the worste in people, or maybe the fact that they can't keep an artist on a comic for more than 2 years despite their constant announcements of "so & so is the new regular artist of outstanding-amazing-hyper-X-poop". I agree his X run sucked but it started out brilliantly. Morrison is amazing, one of the best writers out there. I'm sorry if you can't see that.

Well, I rest my case. How much is Marvel paying you to say these things? A completely original epic 30 part story with some the greatest artists in the medium about characters most have never heard of that Morrison will make cool & original & you would rather read a cheap, Marketing ploy that is a sequel to a cheap marketing gimmick that only was made so Marvel could steal some headlines to DC putting out DKR2 (which sucked, no argument there).

You like what you like, but I'm sorry Marvel just blows (& I use to be a marvel zombie like yourself). They are only concerned about their movie properties. As far as comics they could care less about the fans. They just want USA Today articles & gimmicks. While DC is locking up talent like Jim Lee, Rags Morales, Mike Turner, Pacheco, Quitely, Johns, Jiminez, Morrison & on & on, Marvel makes exclusive announcements of Mike Ryan, & inkers. That is such an example of the difference b/w the 2 companies. Most of the most original & best comics are being published by DC. Sleeper, Ex Machina, Gotham Central, Fables, Y The Last Man, 100 Bullets, Fallen Angel, Hard Time & on & on. The diversity is astounding. Marvel has Bendis writing half there books, cancels series constantly before they reach 10 issues b/c they have no faith in the crap they publish, & puts the same 3 characters & 2 writers in almost all of their comics.

J.P. I know you are out there, back me up.

DarkestPhoenix

o

m

g




I thought this forum was lame as hell. I thought nobody read posts here.

Too late tonight, though. I'll refute all your arguments mañana.

Jackskeleton

If it's going to be a DC vs Marvel battle, Bring it. Marvel may be selling the titles. McDonalds also sells the most burgers, doesn't mean they are any good.

War Games wasn't build as the event of the year. It was just a multi-title story arc. Disesembled was billed as one of those events of the year. All it ended up doing was killing off a few avengers who, by marketing gimmick alone, came out with Marvel Legend figures right when they were killed off in the comics to boost sales. Great marketing there mavel. Way to short pack the figures that were going to be hot simply because you killed them off for no good reason.

bishop2knight

Sessa, sometimes there's no need for backup when you pose such excellent points. However, allow me to take a few moments to hand everyone my two cents.

First, I don't believe DC is necessarily better than Marvel. It all depends on what you want from your stories. I prefer DC over Marvel because DC has original, hard hitting stories, not the typical, watered down super hero fare that takes six issues to tell a three issue story. But that's just my opinion (after being a lifelong Marvel whore, it's quite a change). I think Glenn nailed it when he mentioned diversity. DC has it, and Marvel doesn't.

I read the few Marvel titles I do because they remind me of being a kid. And why not, they're using the same stories as they did when I was 10. Most of the excitement these days comes from hype. The anticipation becomes more fun then the actual experience of reading the story. Go reread a (current) favorite DC story years after it’s been printed and you’ll still enjoy it. Read a current Marvel story that you like and it no longer has an impact. It’s because, while some stories do live up to that hype (I loved what the did to Gwen), more times then not they don’t come close and I find myself thinking, "They've done this before" or "How long until a new writer comes along to rewrite history and make it a dream or some shiz?" I've just grown tired of that. I'm not saying I want 100% continuity, but I want to feel the ramifications of the hero's actions, not have them brushed under the rug like they never happened.

Look at some of the best DC books: Gotham Central for example. Things that happened in issues 1-5 are still popping up and being problems for the characters in issue 20. I love that because everything that happens means something. Actions impact the characters lives in a way unknown to Marvel. Peter Parker learns that Gwen slept with the enemy? Watch how quickly it becomes a non-issue in his everyday life, even though that would have major impact “in the real world”. How long until the actions of Disassembled are forgotten?

[On the plus side, Marvel happens to have Frank Cho now, so that's huge point for them.]

In the end, DC has a strong edge for me because the company pushes the boundaries of what a comic can be. They’re open to making stories for the non-typical, adult comic fan. Sleeper, Ex Machina, Gotham Central, Y The Last Man, 100 Bullets, The Losers, the new Authority. These are some of the best, most consistently good stories out there, not just in comics, but in all media. They are totally refreshing in part because there’s not a rehash in the lot and because the creative talent never dumbs down the stories for the sake of the common reader. Plus, these are stories even non-comic fans can enjoy. So if you haven’t already, look at these books. Read them. Love them. These are great concepts that are helping to change what we expect from comics.

Oh, as for the Azz/Lee Superman. It may not be the best monthly comic, but try reading the entire run so far in one sitting. It’s great, and I can’t wait to see how it ends.

Man, that was longer than it needed to be and I probably just rehashed what’s been stated in this thread already. Maybe I need to get a job at Marvel.

areacode212

I could give two shits about the Avengers or Spider-Man, but Marvel does have some good titles--Supreme Power, She-Hulk, Mystique (which is being cancelled), Runaways. It's just that they seem to think that these books will market themselves. Hopefully, when they relaunch two of the above titles, Marvel will spread the word around that they aren't just a 3- or 4-title company.

bishop2knight

I just bought the entire run of RUNAWAYS and can't wait to read it. And Mystique's fun too, although I read some information from McKeever that made it sound like Marvel wouldn't let him do the things he wanted to, which is too bad, because his ideas sounded great.

areacode212

Yeah...it was the thread here, right? I agree, his ideas sounded really cool, especially since I like espionage-type comics to begin with.

The Antipodean

Geez, I've always thought the whole Marvel Vs. DC fanboy thing was kind of stupid. I'll buy comics if they're good, don't really care which company puts them out. I started out like most collecting almost exclusively Marvels in the 1980s but now am split pretty much half and half down the middle. Good comics are good comics.

Sessa17

It totally, is but, when someone makes a lengthy post on how superior Marvel is right now, when I think most comic book fans & certianly critics will overwhelmingly disagree, it brings out the feisty dorky nature in us.

And for more prood of the putrid nature of Marvel & how they could care less about all you loyal Marvel zombies, here is a comparison of DC's late shipping comics & Marvel's.

DC COMICS

Blood: A Tale TP -- New Prtg. 12/22/04 - 12/29/04
Shimura TP 12/08/04 - 12/29/04
Superman/Batman #16 12/22/04 - 12/29/04
Outsiders #19 12/29/04 - 01/12/05
Y: The Last Man #30 01/05/05 - 01/19/05

MARVEL COMICS

Kabuki #3 (MR) 12/22/04 - 12/29/04
Captain America #2 12/29/04 - 01/05/05
New Avengers #2 12/29/05 - 01/05/05
New Avengers #2 Hairsine Var. 01/05/05
Wha … Huh? 12/29/04 - 01/05/05
Marvel Age Fantastic Four #11 01/05/05 - 01/12/05
Marvel Team-Up #4 01/05/05 - 01/12/05
New X-Men #8 12/29/04 - 01/12/05
Spider-Man/Human Torch #1 01/05/05 - 01/12/05
Uncanny X-Men #454 01/05/05 - 01/12/05
Marvel M'wrks.: Uncanny X-Men V. 5 2nd Ed. HC/Var. Ed. 01/12/05 - 01/19/05
Combat Zone: True Tales of G.I.s in Iraq #1 01/05/05 - 01/26/05
New X-Men #9 01/19/05 - 01/26/05
Stoker's Dracula #3 01/19/05 - 01/26/05

DarkestPhoenix

All right, I'll be refuting quite a bit, so I'm not going to attribute quotes, sorry.

Let's set up the foundation as to why I'm a Marvel guy.

First of all, I think Marvel has much more strength in characters than DC. By that, I mean interesting characters that can hold their own in a story.

Let's break it down:

Detective Comics

Superman
Batman
Wonder Woman
Green Lantern
Green Arrow
Flash

Marvel

Spider-Man
Wolverine
Captain America
Hulk
Daredevil
Fantastic Four
Punisher
Silver Surfer
Iron Man

And that's only mentioning one X-Man. My favorite characters of both labels are:

1 - Magneto. In many ways, Magneto is like Osama. Just...misguided, but really wants to do good by his own people. Unfortunately, his "anything to achieve" attitude makes him even more of a monster than the theoretical enemy he's fighting.

2 - Batman. He's awesome because he's a normal human that hangs with the big boys, and, in many ways, outshines them. Also, I like his animosity towards Superman. It's easy to say we should all be nice and get along when you're fucking bulletproof.

3 - Spider-Man. He actually has a REASON to be a superhero. Better than most.

4 - Wolverine. How can you not like the badass everyone would want to be?

5 - Captain America. Starting out as a wimpy dude, becoming a symbol of the US. This guy is a true believer, feeling like he was given a chance he never imagined he could have. I like ol' Cap.

So, there's only one DC guy there. He's one of my favorite characters, but, seriously, that's like the only guy in DC besides Hal that's worth a shit.

Another thing I hate about DC is continuity. Crisis, while a nice story, fucked the DC world as well as saved it. Every writer had different ideas about characters, which was why Supes could move planets in one issue and get a tooth knocked out by a robot in the next. It didn't make sense. Crisis saved DC from that, but now, you have little idea which history is real, which history is relevant and which isn't. At least when the Vanisher comes back in X-Men, you know, 'Oh, it's the dude from issue number 2, November 196fucking3!'

Finally, DC sucks more than Marvel because all the relevant storylines don't even take place in the fuckin' books. They always have to release graphic novels or mini's to have anything major happen. That blows cock. Batgirl gets crippled in a graphic. Hal comes back in a mini. All the great stories for DC are out of the mainstream books. (With the exception of Superman's death, so they print the piss out of it, instead) Dark Knight, Kingdom Come, and all the Elseworlds are the best stories out there. You criticize Marvel for not being able to keep a writer, well, DC can't either, this is just how they hide it. Fucking TPBs.

Chew

I think we've finally hit on a topic that actually brings people in to post in Book Talk.

Rogue588

I'm surpirsed that you hold "continuity" against DC and NOT Marvel. DC's continuity, IMO, is slightly more coherent than Marvel's. BUT, they're BOTH fucked up.

Regarding "the Killing Joke" -- that was a "Prestige" format comic book. And it DAMN well deserved it. There was no way art that gorgeous or a story that great should've been on regular paper.

And, while I share your loathing of TPBs, BOTH companies are guilty of 'em.

The Antipodean

Adding "fuck" to every other sentence sure doesn't help your argument any.

Jackskeleton

fix'd

Uh.. you forgot a lot of names. From DC:

Oracle, Nightwing, Robin, Batgirl, Zatanna, Alen Scott (JSA), Hal Jordan, Kyle Rayner, Firestar, Aquaman, Hawkman, Impulse/Raven/Firestorm/Superboy (teen titans), the outsiders. Supergirl, Plastic Man That is not including the Veritgo line which has a shit load of NORMAL Relatable characters that can carry one hell of a title.

You also forgot a lot of DECENT names from Marvel. Deadpool for one needs his own series again. Now I give credit to marvel for making a Leifeld generic knock off character like DeadPool (Slade Wilson... Wade Wilson... nah!) and making him a good enjoyable comic to read. Get Cable out of that montly and bring back the good ol' wise cracking Dead Pool and you have yourself a winner there. Though Udon doing the street fighter monthly is something better.

I would like to highlight the word that needs to be highlighted. What you like is what you like. But just because you have an opinion does not make it fact. Your taste is your own. But don't even dare try making that a valid reason why one comic book label is better than another.

One word on how the mighty marvel fucked up Magento: XORN

What the fuck are you talking about? Have you ever read a Superman/Batman book? They may disagree on methods, but no way in hell does Batman have any animosity towards Superman. They trust each other enough to have batman own a kyptonite ring. Clearly, you are talking out of your ass here

So what is his reason to have so many god damn books? You have to ask yourself how much one person can actually go through. And have you forgot about how Marvel fucked up this world? Ben Reily anyone? Spider-man is now an avenger. For a loner it's hard to figure out why he is on so many team ups. Don't get me started on his story arcs and why they decided to go Organic webbing. Spider-Man is beyond fucked.

Personally I hate wolverine now. Why? Because this badass loner suffers an even worse team up fate than Spidey. He is on every god damn team. He was a new fantastic four member, alpha flight, X-men and now is an avenger. What the fuck kind of outsider is he? Also, Marvel has this thing that they like to do with logan where they put him on the cover of every fuck'n book in hopes to generate sales. Clearly, from your reaction, it is working. What's the answer to spreading him out so much? Oh Marvel has the great idea of cloning wolverine by knocking out X23. What better way to sell more titles than by giving wolvie a little daughter.

How is Captain America any better than Superman? These are characters you can never be. Captain America in the 616 is pretty lame. Only when it came to the Ultimates line did I actually like the Cap because of his one liners. Everything else is just a stranger in a strange land type of shit.

While I love Hal you really are picking the wrong people to even compare that to. You want to see good characters? Kyle Rayner is one that should be on your list considering the reasons you listed. He has a reason to be a hero and is very relatable to the readers. He is a freak'n fanboy with a power ring. How much more on your level can anyone be? Besides that, he has had loved ones stuffed into kitchen items. Hal on the other hand is really picked clean from the Golden Age and is not able to be placed in the modern day so easy. They gave him a drinking problem and more angst when they rebooted him for DAWN after crisis. But even that felt forced. He is not a character you can really relate to since he is really beyond all Will Power... besides losing it when coast city got it.

Kettle calling the pot black. Marvel is beyond fucked with Continuity. Can you really explain to me what is going on in all the spider-man books? Seriously? Where the fuck is the continuity there? Like I said, Peter is a Giant spider, fighting the offspring of a raped dead ex girlfriend, Aunt may is being kidnapped/killed/PRANK'D!

That is just spider-man. Marvel's 616 universe is something I wonder about. Not because it's one universe, but because all the books seem to be based in New York. Which is Marvel's biggest mistake. You have Magento leveling the fuck out of New York in X-men but the events of that aren't felt in Spider-man, which is another New York hero? Hell's Kitchen must have it's own force field also since it's not phazed by an alien invasion in Avengers and their base gets blown the fuck up by it's not felt in other titles? Continuity in Marvel is laughable because all the titles seem to happen in New York. Atleast with DC you have events that cross over. Superman's battle when he came back with Cyber-Sup's effected Green Lantern as Coast city was blown the fuck up. GL then went batshit insane and became Parallax leading to Zero Hour which effected every DC book. See how that works? Say it with me.. continuity! Robin Quiting was felt in Teen Titans and Robin's own comic. The Flash getting a super mindwipe by the Spectre was felt in all the books also when no one remembered wally was really the flash. Green Arrow coming back in quiver had Spoiler in the background. Hey.. that's what I call Continuity!

It got so bad that Marvel decided to reboot reboot and reboot again. Hero's reborn was a lame attempt. Now The Ultimate time line is not 616. It's something else because they couldn't deal with Continuity fuck ups anymore and they wanted to make comics more attainable for new readers. So they started everything all over. Spidey is more like the movies. Avengers Ultimates are anti-terrorist, Nick Fury is Sam Jackson. Spider-man is now a teacher a student and so full of confussion on who fucked who and who's kids are who and which actress is playing which of his family members and Not getting on any planes to stage their death. If you got all the references in that one sentence and still consider Marvel any better then you have some issues you need to work through and they aren't comic related.

The only fuck ups that were left because of Crisis got ironed out. Superman's reboot during crisis was pretty decent. they told the story of him going to metroplois and they re-updated it a little in Superman: Birth Right. Batman: Year One gave us a good look at how batman got started. Green Lantern got Emerald Dawn. Crisis didn't restart everything like ULTIMATE is. It just made everything nice and connected. Golden Age Wonder Women is now the current WW's mother. So is Black Canary's back story. Batman is no longer a killer and wears stupid purple gloves. The JSA is a good story line and has history now because it is DC History. You have the original Green Lantern working with the new Green Lanterns. The Original Flash teaching impluse how to be a speedster.

Also, might I ask why Nightcrawler is now the son of a demon and Angel is the son of an angel? Who's fuck'n lame ass idea was that? It tried to explain that Mutants are just creatures of demons and angels in sort of stupid holy war. And they can't get aids for some reason now.

seriously.. do you even read DC books before you bitch about them? I give Marvel books a go around and they really just are lacking. Now you want to talk about mini events? Hey, did you hear about a little Marvel book called SECRET WARS? how about IDENTITY DISC? no? Odd. those are two major MARVEL events that take place in a different book. Not to mention all the solo comics for X-men that never get past issue ten. Jubilee, Emma frost, Night crawler, rouge, Gambit. Do all these characters really need their own book? And if you want to talk about characters that can carry a book, it's clear marvel doesn't think so as these characters books seem to get canned by issue 10. Marvel has a few characters that can carry a book and what do they do? They give them 3 or 4 books. Fantastic four has Ultimate FF, Marvel age FF. Spider-man has so many books. X-men, X-force(WHY GOD WHY?!), New X-men, Uncanny X-men, Astonishing X-men (the only good one), Excalibur, NYX, etc. etc. Atleast the bat titles work well. Robin carries his book into the 100's already now. Nightwing has 100 issues. Birds of pray is very successful and has branched out from being just a bat title. Leaving batman with only 3 or so titles that actually work with each other.

Hal is coming back in Rebirth because THAT IS THE FUCK'N ONLY GREEN LANTERN COMIC AT THE MOMENT! The regular series ended with Kyle kicking off the events of Rebirth, there is no regular Green Lantern comic right now. So you can count Rebirth as the monthly Green Lantern comic right now. War Games wasn't an event that took place in its own batman books? The upcoming Rouges War isn't going to happen in Flash's comics? "For Tomorrow" isn't a story arc that is going on in Superman right now? "Titans of the future" isn't an event that is happening in Teen Titans right now? "JSA/JSA" isn't a JSA story going on in it's book right now? What the fuck are you talking about? Really, I would like to know where you come up with this sort of idea that DC's regular story arcs and events don't happen in their own books. Yes, you have the yearly Crisis event that happens across multiple books (IC happened in Identity Crisis, but there was plenty of tie in's to the regular books because the events of IC actually effect the universe... unlike Marvel)

DC has some of the best writers right now ON the regular books. I don't see what sense your comment makes. Marvel also does have good writers.. sorry I ment WRITER. Bendis and Joss are the only decent writers in Marvel right now while DC has plenty Johns, Loeb, Metlzer, etc. on the DC titles only. You aren't talking about Vertigo because the list goes on! You do realize that 90% of TPB's are just the collection of the issues. Want to get into a TPB battle? Atleast DC holds off on their TPB's so that don't cannibalize their regular title sales. How long ago did Dissesmelbed happen? And they already cranked out the TPB's collecting them. Most story arcs in marvel are released in TPB form a month later. DC does a great job in giving you affordable Hard cover versions of them. This is a huge benefit.

Now you want to get into a pissing match between MARVEL and DC? The main difference between the two is when they started and the heros that spawned from that time. DC started in a War torn world. They made heros back when Heros were fighting for truth, power and the american way. The heros are from a time when heros were looked at as heros. Marvel's main characters come from a world full of hate and civil discourse. This is why the "heros" are the outsiders and most often misunderstood and hated. X-men represent a sort of minority. DD, Spider-man and so forth are all mis-understood and to some degree hated by the public because they aren't understood where Superman and Batman, Captain Marvel, Wonder Women are all characters that were beyond human. That is why most people can relate to Marvel's line up a lot more when they are teens. Because they to, feel like outsiders and in a sense like those mutants who are hated by the public. It appeals to that teenage angst and those who just got out of watching the latest Marvel movie fuck up that had little to nothing connected with the comic and will effect the book by having all the characters wear hip black leather from now on.

Don't even get me started on Y, the last man. One of the best books around. Simply put, DC has the best quality in comics right now.

Jackskeleton

Indeed!

DarkestPhoenix

Your comparisons between the two labels are unfair.

I already touched on the whole 'not keeping writers' bias that you have. See, Marvel's best always happen IN the books. Dark Phoenix (obviously), Days of Future Past, Age of Apocalypse (kinda), Death of Gwen Stacy, the Elektra Saga, Tony's alcoholism, Doom stealing the Surfer's powers, the list goes on and on.

Also, you say,
but, then, you also say,
You say Marvel takes too long to tell a story, but then when DC tells some lame, drawn out tale, you say it's 'cerebral' and 'esoteric'.

I will agree that Bendis re-uses bits. For some reason he mentions Patsy Walker over and over in USM, so I don't know if he has a Hellcat fetish, or what. His repeating hot chick greeting of, "Good job, God," makes me think hack more than genius, but overall, I think his stories are awesome. Elektra was pretty good, USM is the best fucking book on the market, and Secret War, thus far is sufficient. The only book I didn't like was Daredevil, but it makes sense that he's outed. In reality, if you outed Spider-Man, who the fuck cares, but Daredevil has the most to lose. He'll get barred, for one, and that IS his life, as much as his nightly adventures. The Wolvie/Spidey switch in USM was one of the best stories I've read in a long, long time.

I liked Hush. I hate Superman's story arc. I've always thought you either need kick ass art or a killer story to make a book readable. For instance: Kingdom Come was excellent art, not that great a story. Dark Knight Returns was a great story with shitty art. I've crapped better Batman figures than that blocky, sketchy shit.

JMS is writing the best Amazing run I've seen in a long time. Ezekiel is an excellent character, the best since Venom. And he's what's missing for Spidey. He's a perfect father-figure and confidant. Someone he can talk to about what he does. Someone who can fully understand. I know you think he's dead, but how long's that going to last? Like that dude said in Alias, Season 3, "I thought you were dead."

"I was. I came back."

"That's what I love about our business."

I loved the fact that Aunt May found out. How fucking long could she not know? I liked his 9/11 issue. I liked Norman raping Gwen. (despite the assertion that it was consentual) I basically like characters that act in character. That is totally in character for the Green Goblin.

Please be advised that Amazing is NOT Spectactular. Spectacular does suck. But, The Pulse has been very quality. MK Spidey should lead up to a pretty good conclusions.

Then, to say that Disassembled sucked is probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Killing the Vision? Who cares? Hawkeye? Okay, I liked him. He is from Iowa. Scarlet Witch, I don't care.

The whole thing that made Avengers cool was the constant line-up changes. I have issues 1, 4, 6, 8-11, 13 and on. They changed team members all the time! That was always bad-ass. They started the craze, not JLA. So, I think the team's long overdue for a new lineup.

My favorite addition will be the Sentry. An awesome character, but pretty obvious why he was a 'classic' character that everyone forgot about. I loved the mini, and I definately wanted him back. Marvel Knights was awesome, but with lesser characters. Why wouldn't you want the same with popular, powerful characters? Isn't that what the Avengers are supposed to be?

Once again, Identity Crisis was very cool, but it didn't take place in a regular book. It would have made an awesome story inside the pages of the JLA.

I have stated that I do not like everything about Marvel. I hate secondary mutations, I hate changes to conform to Hollywood and I hate quite a few stories coming out of X-Men. But they're still better than that crappy Quitely art and shitty Morrison stories. And that's my favorite property.

But it's better than most of the boring, who cares storylines in DC. When I'm spending my cash on a book, I'd like a story I can get into, and seeing Catwoman babble on about how much she loves to protect the prostitutes in her part of town while some cop old enough to be her dad tries scoring on her just doesn't work for me.

I'm not a Marvel plant. And I think the best stories came from '95 to '00. We're going through a little dry spell right now, but that doesn't mean everything sucks.

Even though I openly admit that I personally like Marvel better, I can still give DC props where they're due. Rebirth, Hush, and Superman/Batman are really good books. And I'll buy Superman so long as Jim Lee is on it.

Adding fuck is just how I post. If you don't like it, see if Geoff will return to language prohibition.

DarkestPhoenix

If I'm a Marvel Zombie, you're a DC Dumbass. Come on, let's dispense with labels. Argue me intelligently. I'm being non-biased...you're hatred for Marvel is a LOT more apparent than my bias. I read both companies.

I didn't forget any of them. But if you really mean to tell me that characters like Firestorm and Zatanna are mammoth properties, then prepare to be deluged by the massive amounts of X-Men that can drown them into mediocrity. Shit, Gambit and Beast are better than any on that list besides Hal.

Better characters, does, indeed, make a better label. Marvel has many, many more, I assure you.

Agreed. Who's creative genius idea was that again? Have I said anything complimentary towards him yet?

That's exactly what I was saying. Batman's got a different philosophy, and believe me when I say that Batman thinks HE'S right, not Superman. Batman works with people out of necessity, not trust. The only reason Bruce has that ring is because he doesn't trust Clark enough. I don't think Clark trusts himself.

Yes, there are some problems (Spectacular) but most Spider-Man books are excellent.

You're just hating now. The guy's like a Ronin who's finally found a cause. You don't like him, fine, but your bias here clearly shows.

Superman is probably one of the weakest CHARACTERs in comic books. You wanna talk about zombies, that's what everyone who likes Clark is. A damn Zombie. Yeah, he's the most well-known superhero. Because he was first. That's it. The only reason. Sorry, I don't buy 'I wuz brought up right so I do good.' That's lame. I like a real reason. That's why Captain America is better.

Kyle =

Seemed forced? To me, seemed like a copy of Marvel with Iron Man. But, oh, sorry, only Marvel can copy DC.

Still, we have history. I embrace my history. I can understand. I don't need everything to carry over into every book. THAT is the real marketing ploy to get you to buy every book so you can see what's going on all over. That happens in DC.

You're asserting that Ultimate was a reboot. It's not. It's for newcomers to get involved with the characters, then move on to the regular universe. It is a bit intimidating, the history, but one can grasp it, over time. I enjoy that, the most.

Stupid, yes, but that's the decision of Quesada to put dumb writers on X-Men. I'm disappointed, as Joe obviously has no idea of the X-Mythos, or he wouldn't allow this shit. He's a crappy EIC, and as soon as he leaves, maybe we'll get some good books again.

Seriously, yes. You can point fingers, but sales charts prove my point. Yes, both companies have minis, but DC is a lot more guilty of it than Marvel is. That's the only reason DC is competetive in sales. AND DC does the same in their books. Batman's got six or seven books out there. So don't give me this argument that Marvel's guilty of overexposing their pillars, hypocritically.

Hal is coming back in Rebirth because sales were waning. That's true. And, it's the same thing as what happened with Disassembled. It's not horrible, but I wish both books would have just continued, uninterrupted.

What about Millar? I think JMS is good, too, but there's other good stories. Cable/Deadpool is good. So is Exiles. There are plenty of writers at both companies. I count prestige as TPB. Sorry, but it's really kinda similar.

No argument. Good synopsis. But it doesn't change the way it IS. Being more relatable is better Today. That's what I'm saying. I said I don't like caving to Hollywood, and I don't. They shouldn't dictate to us, we should dictate to THEM.

I like Exiles more than Y.

DarkestPhoenix

I wonder if any threads had to be moderated here before...could get ugly.



I'm just glad we're both reading. I don't despise the other side, I just don't think it's as good. I still read lots of their stuff, too.

Jackskeleton

Ha! It's unfair because it's the truth.

and I already touched that also. Those are story arcs. They happen in their books. The same thing happens in DC. Lets list a couple of story arcs that happened in their own books:

HUSH - BATMAN
WAR GAMES - BATMAN
Murder/fug - BATMAN
Sins of youth - Young Justice
Quiver, Archers Quest - Green Arrow
Rouges War - Flash
Rebrith - Green Lanter (Rebirth is the only GL monthly now)
For Tomorrow - Superman
JSA/JSA - JSA
teens of the future - teen titans
JLA/CSA - JLA

Same shit can be said for DC. They are story arcs, they happen IN book. There is just as many crappy story arcs that happen "IN BOOK" in both companies. It's a fuck'n story arc. Both companies have them. As for the slow build up.. New Avengers #1 was Blue balls all the way. That is not where you leave off on issue 1 of a comic story arc introducing the team. It's a different thing when talking about Superman because in that, the pieces fit better in the long run. In Avengers, it's more like they fit better in trade simply because it's the whole thing in one sitting. There is a difference.

another example of how Marvel feels they need to put Wolvie in EVERY FUCK'N BOOK to sell it. As for spidey's secret Identity. It seems no one has a Secret Identity anymore. Spider-man's was all over the place in Secret Wars, which comes out so slowly who really cares about it anymore?

Now you have to be crazy to say that Kingdom Come had a crappy story. Shitty art in DKR?!?!? Have you ever read Sin City? I blame people like you for Leifeld on X-force. It's people like you who buys that crap.. isn't it?!? Superman's arc is making him more human. That's the one problem DC has, the characters are Iconic enough that it is sometimes hard to relate to them. Something the Marvel folks have done because of when they created them and how they created them (hated outsiders or outcast from society)


Aunt May actually knew sinces long ago because of finding the outfit in the closet. Talk about continuity fuck up... am I right. Norman Raping Gwen and then having her killed in Ultimate world was a total "FUCK YOU GWEN" month. Her offspring are nothing more than a story arc that will be retconnec five months down the line. Have you've seen the cover for upcoming issues?



Spectacular was actually a decent issue this month. The Pulse is another excuse to reliable a title. Secret wars tie in. What I would consider an "event outside of it's monthly"

The Vision wasn't all that great. Hawkeye was one of the dumbest things they did all for shock value. and guess which two characters came out in the Marvel Legend line up that month... Hmmmmm, I wonder if it was tied into that? To make it resolve with "It was the witch because she's crazy" was stupid. They just wanted to get rid of the avengers and sell more issues #1's.


what we mean by Changing the line up is that they are taking the big A listers and putting them in one title. Wolvie, Spidey..... Do they actually need to be in another monthly title?

No it wouldn't. Now go back to marvel.

What are you talking about? DC really does have a lot of GOOD storylines. More so than Marvel does right now.

Oh dear god, who are you and what did you do to any sane person who was in you? 95-00 sucked the big one. You have Image which had all their titles go where again? What happened to savage dragon? Young blood? Wild Cats? Battle Chasers went where now? J. Scott campbell is doing what cover now? All those folks who wanted to create a revolution just fizzled and didn't come up on promises. Then you have Marvel going through so many fuck arounds because it was becoming dead broke and giving the Chief editor position to Joe Q. That was a huge mistake. DC was just getting around to bringing back some of it's big players again after doing the cleaning house on the characters and giving them an updated look. the 90's were just a complete fuck up that I don't want to remember. Variant covers were all over the place.. ugh.. total hate.



They are "due" it a lot more than marvel. I can say that for certain. Did we even get into the whole Vertigo line?

Jackskeleton

I'm sorry, I would just like to sit here for a moment and focus on how you called me a dumbass...

then you have the nerve to say:
.
Sorry bub, but that was a just beyond stupid. Nuff said.

Ok.. now you say you read both companies but it doesn't seem like it. Marvel's line up is just out there. You have one writer doing 90% of the books out there and the rest is just bad writing. I do enjoy some of the marvel stuff and I try to read through it to actually form a valid opinion to hate it. I think I've proven enough history to know why I dislike it. Your excuse for not liking DC was Continuity. Something that Marvel sucks even worse at doing.

Zatanna is heading up 7 soliders. A book that will be solid. What is Gambit or beast heading up other than second mutations? Firestorm's monthly is getting pretty good. Nightwing is getting Year One treatment. Oracle and birds of pray is an interesting read in its own right. Robin carries his own book very well and Batgirl does the same. There is plenty of Batman books that dont even have batman in them. Can't say the same about Spider-man since he has no side kicks or other characters in the other books that can carry the story by themselves.

The problem is they aren't better at all. Tony is Iron man again even though the events of Dissembled went down? Sorry, that's fucked up continuity.

Marvel still approved of it and has ran with it and continue to run with it. X-men, besides Astonishing is just a pile of crap right now.

Batman doesn't trust superman clark enough? WTF? Superman Gave him the ring. Big difference there. If you want to put trust into issue. Batman doesn't really trust anyone why else would situations like tower of bable happen?

though their continuity sucks. If you are going to bitch about DCU being filled with fucked up continuity then you have to point out the spiderman titles being beyond fucked. X-men aswell

I used to enjoy wolvie. and "just hating" is a stupid phrase. Lets put it this way, Wolvie got his origin told and everyone is on it like flys on shit. Wolvie is an over used character. Prove me wrong.

the only reason why superman is the weakest character in comics is because he isn't humanized enough. "FOR TOMORROW" is doing a good job at making him on the level of a normal person.

tell me the difference between Peter Parker and Kyle Rayner? You can't, they are the same type of character.

You don't know what you are talking about. DC's writers have history and are using it. Johns references Nightwing's and Flash's friendship from when they were the original teen titans. JSA has a deeper history. You really don't read much if you can't see that the DC writers do take comic history serious.

thus, a reboot. Reboots are to start new for the readers. Ultimates was a reboot in all those aspects.


Like I said before, McDonalds sales the most Hamburgers. Doesn't mean they taste good.

DC has quality. Add in the Vertigo line and you have DC really shining.

Again, read the thread. I explained the batman books. Now list them for me please.

Batman related books:
Batman
Batman: Gotham Knight
Birds of Pray
Robin
Batgirl
Nightwing
Gotham Central
Batman: Detective Comics

8 total and that's spanning Nightwing, Batman, Robin, Batgirl and cops in Central. not bad.

compare that to X-men
Uncanny
Astonishing
Exclaibur
X-men
Ultimate X-men
Emma frost
X-force
Gambit
Nightcrawler
Jubilee
Wolverine
NYX
etc. etc.

Uncountable

Spider-man has the same shit.
Amazing,
Spec,
MK,
Spider-man,
Ultimate,
Doc Ock year one,
Marvel Age(like ultimate wasn't enough for new readers)
Spider-girl
Amzing Fantasy
Mary FUCK'N JANE!!!!
Spider-man India
11 fuck'n books and that is just off the top of my head. 11!!! eleven fuck'n books for what looks like only 3 characters.
Atleast Batman's titles work together in telling stories and connecting without being all fucked up compared to X-men or Spidey.

That beats out anything Batman has in titles. Sorry, you lose on that point.

Another ignorant comment. Hal is coming back because the writers who are writting grew up with hal and there was a long battle up hill to bring him back. Green Lantern sales with Kyle were decent and the story was still top notch. It was just time to bring Hal back. Sales are big, but isn't that what you were saying is lacking with DC? make up your mind.

then complain about Marvel because the fall like a house of cards when it comes to movie titles.

DarkestPhoenix

Hmmm...a zombie, by definition...is someone who looks or behaves like an automaton.

An insinuation that I'm unthinking and/or stupid because I don't share your views.

As long as we're throwing labels around...I thought I'd at least make one up that's equally offensive to you.

Forgot my smiley. I don't really dislike you, I just disagree.

I'll rebutt it all, but for now, I'll say that I've given many other arguments against DC in addition to continuity.

Also, while you think sales doesn't matter, MOST PEOPLE BUYING BOOKS disagree with you as to what's good. I'm leaving now. I have company.

Liquid Death

As much as I like reading books BMB writes, Vaughn is a much more creative writer, imo - he throws in all sorts of twists and turns in all the books and they don't feel like shock value. Runaways, Ex Machina, and Y are all top notch (never really read much of Mystique tho). Rucka is also one of my favorites, but I couldn't get into his run on Wonder Woman (still enjoy Q&C tho). And John's run on Flash until 'Ignition' was top shelf. But BMB has done wonders with several of the Marvel books he took over, especially Daredevil, and he made Spidey both accessible and fun (something the mainstream Spidey books had lacked for awhile).

Sessa17

Any character can be interesting & hold their own story, it's up to the creative team behind it. Now, there is one thing I agree w/ you on. I also think Marvel has more interesting characters. Depite my constant bashing of Marvel & praise of DC I'm a Marvel guy also. My favorite comic book character is Thor, the comics that got me into comics are Excalibur & New Mutants. I completly agree that Marvel has the more interesting characters as a whole.

But this is all the more reason why I hate Marvel now. Marvel makes a living on people like you. They shit on their fans, look at the list of late comics I posted. Not only are their a ton in 1 month, they are on F'n highly publicized flagship re-launched. It is absurd that they have the nerve to re-launch a title only b/c Bendis says so, & then they can't even get it out on time. Same w/ Captain America (which by the way the first issue was amazing).

Huh? Why would anyone want to be a 5 foot tall midget with a hairy face that never dies. Not to mention one of the most boring characters in comics.


Worth a shit to you, that doesn't make Marvel better. You just like them more.

This is where you just look like a fool & have no idea what you are talking about. Plus, if you don't read DC how on earth do you know their continuity is messed. And if you DID read DC you would know that their continuity is PERFECT compared to Marvel. Marvel has no continuity, Quesada himself has said he could care less about it & PUBLICLY made fun of his own fans for paying too much attention to their comics. Marvel had New York destroyed by Magneto, at the exact same time that Asgard was floating over New York protecting it in another comic in the exact same time New York was being attacked in THREE other comics. Yet Marvel has better continuity?


You have such a way with words. What was this Orgin comic you were raving about so much before? I'm sorry, how about this Secret War book you were also so fond of? Or should I mention that over the past year Marvel has put out, according to Diamond comics, 8, yes EIGHT times as many mini or maxi series as DC has. Many of which were cancelled before they even finished or worse not even finished at all b/c of the creators involved.

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.Man we are geeks.

Jackskeleton

You do realize that calling some one a fanboy is much different than saying is a "fuck'n moron". You do see the difference in those two comments right? By definition, you are a Marvel Zombie based that you are following everything Marvel puts out like someone who looks or acts in automation. Calling me a dumbass is waaaay worse then calling someone a generic name like Marvel Zombie.

You know how someone said that "saying fuck a lot doesn't prove your point"? well that's what it comes down to. Calling someone a dumbass isn't creative. It's not new and it lacks anything close to creativity. So it doesn't sound any good to your defense to curse like that.

I'll say this only once more. Just because McDonalds has the most sales doesn't mean that their burgers are any better. The reason Marvel's books sale is because they have name recognition because of the crappy movies they put out. You wait till Batman Begins comes out, You wait till Superman comes out, You wait till a Wonder Women script is penned and you will see DC's numbers soar and I will even venture to guess that they will pass Marvel.

Right now Marvel needs to give Bendis a nice back massage and really go out of their way to make sure they keep him or else the books will suck and sales will go down.

I've refuted every point you've made way beyond Continuity. It's just the Continuity comment really made you come across as an ignorant person since any sane person who knows any small amount of anything about the comic book industry would know Marvels stance on Continuity compared to DC. It's really not even a question that DC cares about it more than Marvel.

Sales do not = quality.


I heard about the Year One Hard cover. The SUPERMAN/BATMAN/Supergirl HC is also coming out in Feb so that's going to be awsome.

KissyFurNYC

For all intents and purposes, IC was just a 7 issue JLA arc. It dealt with alot of the majors and Robin. I am a long time reader, Pre-Crisis, and I must say IC is the best thing that came along the pipe in a while. A classic I think. I have reread all the issues. The pacing is excellent. The reveal scene was so effective. I love it. I look forward to what DC has to offer this year. They seem to be hot again, as the cycle turns in their favor.