kenbuzz

My wife is an avid reader, and earlier this Spring she said that she wished she had a Kindle. I'm going to get her one for Christmas, but I'm looking for feedback on them from anyone who's got one.

Kindle vs Sony Reader: I know there are two products on the market, and I'm asking Kindle owners for advice so I can pretty much guess what most of you will say, but can you compare the two products for me and give me pros/cons for each? Don't worry about the "she asked for a Kindle" part - she'd be happy with either.

Large vs Small Screen Kindle: I see there are two different sizes available. In all honesty is the larger 10" screen worth the doubled price?

Overall Value: Yeah, it seems neat to have an electronic gizmo instead of a hardback/paperback, but is it really worth the $250 price plus $10 per book? Really? I mean, your "book" is purely virtual. If you want to reference it or read it again 10 years from now you won't be able to pull it down off your bookshelf and read it again 10 years from now, you'll be dependent on your gizmo still being functional AND supported, right?

Ruggedness: My darling wife kills electronic devices. I have to replace her cell phone every 6-8 months due to her dropping it or getting it wet. She's a college student right now and spends a LOT of time walking around campus being exposed to the elements. Even in her backpack, she's managed to trash phones on two different occasions. It's to the point now that I consider her phones disposable and grab whatever is cheapest or on sale from T-mobile's website. I've seen Amazon's demo video, with the woman sitting on the beach reading her Kindle, but if that were my wife she'd be sitting in 8" of water. How resistant is the device to water, shock (and sand)? If it's left sitting out and my 8 y/o decides to monkey with it will it survive the ordeal? I'm reluctant to get her an expensive thingy that she'll ruin unless it's wife-proof or they have an excellent/cheap warranty program.

Overall Impressions: If there are any other feedback items, I'd certainly love to hear them. I've read the online reviews, I'm looking for actual hands-on non-paid reviews from folks I trust.

DeputyDave

This thread:

http://forum.dvdtalk.com/book-talk/5...aditional.html

Has a dozen pages of good pros and cons. Also Gator Deb seems to be the local expert.

kenbuzz

Thanks. I started wading through that thread, but saw that it was started 2-3 years ago and didn't realize that it was "keeping up" with the recent changes. I've started giving it a re-read, and it looks like I'll probably avoid the huge-ish DX model. It's now just the regular Kindle 2 vs the yet-unknown Sony reader.

djmont

I haven't used a Sony, but I've played around with a Kindle and they're pretty cool. I have several friends who have them and they seem to like them a lot.

Ginwen

I like mine.

The 9.99 books are mostly recently books, only available otherwise in hardbook, so I actually save there. I don't care about the virtualness of it since I get so little for used books anyway--I appreciate the saved space.

A lot of other books are less than 9.99, usually I find them to be a little less than the paperbacks.

I like science fiction, and there are tons of free SF books from Baen Books and elsewhere so it pretty much pays for itself there. Lots of free Romance too, but I'm not into that. With a little effort you may be able to do library books too (I am). I got about 250 or so free books when I first got it from various places, so I always have something to read.

I wasn't really interested in the larger one--if anything I'd like a smaller one, since I hate carrying stuff. Girls have purses though so they're more used to carrying crap.

I really love the wireless, it's just less hassle for buying books. Plus the samples are cool, I end up buying about a third of what I sample. There are these lists at mobileread.com (also a good comparison site for the different readers) that allow you to download thousands of public domain books (mostly stuff from the 30s and before) direct to your Kindle--you can get them without the Kindle but it's really handy to just download them, and there is a ton of cool stuff on those lists (all formatted for Kindle).

kenbuzz

So, can you take it to the beach? Or stick it in your book bag and schlep around campus in the pouring rain? Or drop it? A lot?

fiver

The Kindle DX is good for 3 things: manga, textbooks (computer, networking, programming, etc...), and reading pdfs

Otherwise, I prefer my kindle 2 for fiction. I've had my kindle 2 for 7 months, my wife has had a kindle dx for a couple months, and I'm considering getting a kindle dx for the above 3 reasons. I used a PC and PDA for 3 years or so before getting my kindle and I'm reading significantly more than I ever did using backlit LCD screens - the eyestrain is much less with e-ink technology so I can read for longer periods.

The best place to go for information about the kindle and opinions is mobileread.com. Plus they have a significant amount of very nicely formatted public domain e-books. Many of the texts are taken from sources like gutenberg but there are several members that correct spelling mistakes, formatting, add illustrations, etc...if you like reading older material, this is a great resource that helps pay for the kindle expense.

As has been stated, Amazon guarantees 9.99 prices only for the NY Times bestseller list - many books do start higher but often times fall to 9.99 fairly quickly. A lot of older SF/Fantasy that I read falls in the 6.99-7.99 range. It's a good idea to keep an eye out for Amazon freebies as they usually rotate these monthly.

Most important thing to remember with any e-book reader is: Don't Skimp on the Case. I picked up one from M-Edge for the kindle 2 and for the dx - the kindle is a delicate piece of technology and the screen will break if not protected. Otherwise, I haven't had any issues with scratching, dirt, or breakage/wear.

I don't have a Sony to compare to but the features that sold me on the Kindle originally were: wireless downloads and Amazon's store. What might sway you towards Sony is if you don't want to lock yourself into the mobipocket DRM format. Sony is supporting epub which a lot of devices around the world are supporting now so you are more likely to be able to move your books to another device later. Un-DRMd Mobipocket material is not difficult to convert as it's really just an html container anyway.

You do have to be a little bit careful with the Amazon store as some files are sold in a format called Topaz which is a (currently) unbroken DRM scheme that is often used for book-scans. With Topaz, not all of the kindle formatting functions work and there is less care taken to make the book look good. Fortunately, there aren't many of these files floating around Amazon.

Also, one less advertised thing about Amazon's store is that each purchase comes with a default number of licenses (6) that can be specified by the publisher. Amazon doesn't tell you how many there are for a particular book. This really isn't too different from most stores that sell DRM material; however, when you unregister a device, you don't get those licenses back. You have to contact customer service for each book to get them to free up those licenses. Not a huge deal but it's good to know about in case you become a multi-kindle family.

I love my Kindle and highly recommend it. Either way you choose, I hope your wife gets a lot of use out of her e-book reader. It's saving me a ton of space; of course, the Amazon one-click makes it too easy to buy more books.

I'm going on a lot about the store because you are pretty much locked in to use Amazon's store so it's a genuine feature of the device to consider.

Michael

fiver

Don't drop any piece of electronics and expect it to like you - but you'll be less likely to damage it with a good case.

If you plan to bathe your kindle, shower with it, or drop it in puddles, you'll be better off with a big ziploc bag to keep it safe.

If you think your wife can't take care of electronics, I wouldn't go anywhere near an e-book reader.

Michael

Ginwen

I tend to avoid those things with all my electronics--I think you can bring it to the beach but sand will get in there eventually whatever you do, plus it has a fairly high steal potential. When I was in Hawaii I brought 1 regular book for the beach (but then I spend all my time in the water anyway).

Anie

kenbuzz,
Well, to save time, I am quite biased as an avid user who has spent more time reading the past year on my Kindle(s) than watching my really nice HD Sony which your forums helped me pick. I had previously lost interest in reading books after becoming addicted to the Net and to HD watching.

After 7 months of helping in answering questions of other Kindle owners along with other volunteer Kindle users at the Amazon forums, I decided to do a blog from which I could reference replies instead of having to type the same info over and over again.

The right hand column of my blog has comparison info on the various Kindles and also on the Kindle vs Sony, and they should help in this case.
The URL would be in my sigline but you folks don't allow it, as I have to have 30 posts first.

So, if interested, google
"a kindle world"

Re the Sony, the issue is clear cut if you don't already have (paid) web data access via an iPhone or a Blackberry. Some of us don't choose web-data for our phones so the Kindle is IT when we're out of the home or away from our offices, as it has free 24/7 cellular wireless to the Net, though it is slow and works best for people with patience and with mobile-optimized sites. The coming wireless Sony will link only to its store.

I often google product-reviews with it when buying at places like Costco and Target, and have used m.yelp.com to get the highest-rated whatever-type-of restaurant nearby and can look up movies and schedules nearby if wanting to kill time. It works just about anywhere except maybe deep underground.

Whether the DX's 9.7" screen is worth the added $230 or not depends on how you use it and what's important to your wife.

I have both the K2 and the DX and I now bring the DX out with me instead. It's not as 'cute' and it's large enough to draw attention if you use it while waiting in lines, but for me the extreme clarity of it plus its ability to show PDFs (I get all kinds of informational PDFs and manuals for all the gadgets too) in a decent size, even more when rotated, are reasons I use that 95% of the time.

I also have photography as a hobby and I like history and travel books, which means the books will tend to have a lot of maps, charts, and photos.

For those a DX really is worth it. But if she reads only novels and prefers paperback sizes, there's no reason at all to go for the DX.

I have image galleries of my K2 and of my DX at PBase (no URLs allowed).

Included in those are how the DX looks when browsing webpages. Also, I show a Sony PRS-505 and a Kindle 2 side by side after I almost literally bumped into the Sony display when at Target.

It isn't really just a Sony vs a Kindle. The Sony has several levels of readers. The Sony Pocket, at $200, has no inline-dictionary. The Kindle 2 shows you a summary defnition, on the bottom status line, of any word your cursor is on and you can press the Enter key to get the full definition.

The Sony Pocket also has no study tools at all - no highlighting, notes taking, no search of a book, and no search of the entire device to find words or phrases in books on the device.

If you do annotations, and enable Amazon back-up of your notes to go with the book, they are put on your personal, password protected page so you can see all your notes for any book on one scrolling page. If you delete the book from your Kindle, it is put into 'Archives' which is a list of books not on your Kindle but still at Amazon in case you ever want to re-download it at no added cost of course. Then your notes come down with it. Sony has nothing like that.

But Sony reads ePub and PDFs natively in the small readers. With the Kindle we have to convert them or have Amazon send us a converted copy of any non-rights-protected PDF, which can be done for free in email or for 15c per megabyte direct to the Kindle. Complex PDFs with multiple columns and complicated charts will not really convert well.

Sony has Google's million free books in ePub available as-is. With the Kindle we can convert any ePub to Kindle-readable in about 3 minutes. I give a guide for converting the free Google ePub books to Kindle ones at my blog.

The Kindle, despite myths to the contrary, can download direct to it, books from feedbooks.com, mnybks.net and fictionwise.com and other stores. The Kindle also has had made for it, by volunteers, the Project Gutenberg's 'Magic Catalog' which you can download to the Kindle and from there browse or search the catalog and then just click to get the book direct to the Kindle for free. That's from about 30,000+ Project Gutenberg books, which tend to be very well-formatted.

Amazon itself has about 7,000 free books for the Kindle.

The Sony Daily Edition due out soon, for $399, has wireless but no web browser and zero direct-access to the Net. It goes only to the Sony Store. The rest has to be done by your computer and then transferred over. But it has a touchscreen (which gets bad reviews in the PRS-600 model because the extra layer causes lower contrast and a lot of glare) and it reads PDFs and has note-taking capability for that. The Kindle 2 has note-taking capabilities also for the converted copies but native-reading of PDFs with the little Sony is a plus for the Sony over the little Kindle.

The Kindle DX has natively supported PDFs and they're beautiful, but for now there is no note-taking capbility for that - so some of us convert a copy of one to 'mobi' format to make notes and do the normal things but we keep the original PDF on the DX to read in perfect layout on a large enough screen that we can actually read the PDF.

Re worth $250 for the Kindle 2 vs a book? A lot of people seem to think so, including columnists who have been cynical but week after week I see one or more writing they finally got one and, despite their skepticism, really liking it.

The dictionary is one reason. The ability to change fonts to larger or or smaller and to change the spacing beween lines as well as (on the DX) the margins to the side are reasons. Physical books now seem restricted, as you have no options if the print is small or too faint (some book publishers seem to think that grey fonts are 'cool'...). And they now seem heavy and awkward.

I like to discuss things I read in books with friends, so I am now used to highlighting and being able to search and find the highlights very quickly, all listed chronologically and linked to the pages where they appear. On the Kindle.

As for long-term availability, googling will show the interested how to remove DRM (digital-rights-management locks) now if wanted. I am for that if I should ever not have a Kindle but want to read the Kindle book I bought or if Amazon should fail someday.

The Kindle is not rugged. While the DX currently sells the Kindle 2 factory-refurbished and warrantied by Amazon for a year, at $219 and the DX for $399, that does not include breakage by the customer.

So I recommend buying them new and getting extended warranties by Amazon or by SquareTrade that will pay for one incidence of customer-caused damage. I also recommend a cover, of course. Amazon's customer support for the Kindle is pretty amazing. There is nothing like it from Sony.

If you don't like the Kindle (new or refurbished), you can return it for any reason within 30 days for a full refund.

If you find a flaw with it, they send you a replacement within 1-2 days and you don't have to return the first one until you've compared the two.

This is even for buttons which seem looser than you like or fonts that fade in direct sunlight. Sony does not replace a unit for the latter condition.

The Kindle and Sonys are incredibly readable outdoors in good light (when not defective). I have a Samsung NC10 netbook which I love but I would never choose to read a book on it, as the white light coming at me for that kind of concentrated reading (vs surfing the Net) is extremely fatiguing on the eyes.

For waterproofing, some use ziplock bags - brought to the beach or to their bathtubs (I'm not kidding -- read the reviews -- people get very addicted to their readers).

I bought a "Trendy Digital" waterproof, sandproof see-through for my Dx which I'm bringing on a trip down the Nile and to the sandy places of Egypt soon. Kwik Tek Dry Pak items are very popular at Amazon too.

The warranty program for the Kindle 2 is very good, at $65, and it covers battery replacement if needed in the 2nd year too, with shipping, as it should last more than 2 years -- the cost of replacing the battery otherwise is $59 + $8 shopping.

- Andrys
A Kindle World

Anie

If you do try it for 30 days, get a case! "-)

By the way, I think a lot of guys are most drawn to the Sony because there's no silly keyboard to make it larger than it has to be if you don't plan to type search words or notes, etc.

- Andrys

kenbuzz

Appreciate the feedback, all. And thanks for the detailed gouge, Andrys... I'll spend the time tomorrow digging through everything you've referred me towards.

A follow-up question on something you posted:So the Kindle also doubles as a poor man's wireless web browser?

As a college student, I could see how my darling wife would prefer to d/l textbooks to her gadget than lug a brick around campus. That alone might tip the scales to the larger devices, assuming there's no easy or utilitarian way to use/view a textbook on a small device.

Anie

Sure does. I use it a lot when outside, but then I'm a bit of a Net addict.
I have photos up but can't link to them here, but you should be able to find them.

I have a file of mobile bookmarks that can be used as if opening up a book of them and clicking - and those will go to faster-loading sites.

I have the small Kindle 2 and that thing was always with me. It's like a little paperback but electronic, with a window to words. I really loved it and am chagrined to asy that it's already mostly forgotten.

The DX at 9.7" diagonally, is just about all I use now. I'm female, 5'4" with thin wrists but I find it very doable. It's just much more of a pleasure for me. Remember that unlike the Sony you can try the Kindle for 30 days and return it just for it not being what you want.

A draw back for a student is that there are no folders. I make files out of things of interest on the web and also from sheet music I like and preface the file name with somethiing that will help me sort and find them, like 'sm-' for sheet music.

Caveat: if she's a math major, that would be out, since the numbers share space with the top row of alpha-characters and you have to use an alt-key to get them.
If she's a biology major, colors in illustrations are really important, so the b&w/gray e-ink readers are not very suitable for that.

The Kindle 2 is more of a personal reader and best for novels and reading more surreptiously while waiting. I hesitated to use my DX outside because taking it out of the purse draws more attention. But I don't care anymore.

For textbooks, the K2 is not so great. But that's just me. I'm going to Egypt, my first trip for 3 years, and am bringing the DX because of all the diagrams of places we're visiting.

None of these e-readers is ideal yet. But things like the inline dictionaries and searches -- I miss them when having to use a physical book now. Good luck on the search! But readability for homework is very good. I can't do linear reading on an LCD screen.

By the way, the iRex will be out in December or so, I think? and it has a stylus system of taking notes. It does take notes for PDFs and it does read ePub. For $400 a pretty good deal. Wireless to the Barnes and Noble store.

BUT the editing tools won't be ready for awhile. It's 8.1 inches in diameter, whereas the DX is 9.7" but I often wish the PDFs were a bit larger as they were planned (11x8.5 page) so I don't know how satisfied people will be to read them on the 8.1" device. Also, its tech support is not known to be easy when something is wrong, while Amazon's is quite amazing, as they seem to be focused on making the Kindle work for people, since if it does, their books will be bought.

- Andrys

Deep_lurk

There are a lot more than two:

http://www.mobileread.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=50

drmoze

Deep Lurk - good link. (Mobileread rocks for electronic book info!)

A couple of things to consider re: Sony Reader vs. Kindle. (I've owned Sony Readers for almost 3 years now.)

Battery life: Probably better on the Reader--wireless eats up battery. Either is still much better than a cellphone. But I like the Reader as a "book" device with no recharging worries. I get over 2 weeks between charges (usually about 3 weeks) on my Readers. Even my 500 model, which is almost 3 years old and is still used pretty much daily gets at least 2 weeks per charge.

The Kindle won't give you a good "browsing" experience. If you want instant info access, I suggest using a cellphone, etc. The e-ink display refresh time is on the order of one second. No animation, no fast page loads, etc. The e-ink is great for static display, like reading full pages of text. Trying to turn it into an "all-in-one" device degrades it IMO.

I think the wireless feature and "instant gratification:" is completely unnecessary. Why? Because any ebook device easily holds hundreds of books in memory (even w/o a memory card). Easily a year or more of reading, with lots of variety. Paying for and downloading one more book instantly is unnecessary, and I save lots of money by not being tempted to do so. If you want to read websites/rss feeds/blogs, better to use a true interactive device (cellphone/blackberry/netbook/etc.) for these short reading items than try to get this functionality on the slow e-ink display.

I personally never use a dictionary when reading, and never write on books. I like the Sony models because they are solid, well-designed and compact. I don't like the bulkier Kindles with their (to me) cheesy-looking keyboards. OTOH, the new Sony 600 has a much neater design with a touchscreen, built-in dictionary and annotation, etc. if you really want those features. The touchscreen slightly degrades the display contrast, but most owners say it's fine. I personally did not like the 600--too many functions, don't need a complex computing device. I just want an electronic book.

Size: Kindles are pretty big. The Sony 505 (which I own, recently discontinued but still available) is much smaller with the same size screen, and very thin. The 600 is about the same size. I recently picked up a 300 Reader ($200): 5" display (as opposed to 6" on the other Readers and non-DX Kindles). Still very easy on the eyes when reading, and it is just small enough to fit in my pocket nicely. (Being a guy, no pocketbook etc., portability is key.) I kind of chuckle to myself when I see the bulky Kindles in public, especially the first-gen model. But the e-ink display is still great for reading on any ebook device.

A big plus on the Sony is the ability to borrow FREE library books online from your local library. With Amazon charging $10 a pop for newer ebooks, I've saved hundreds of dollars over the past year or so by borrowing lots of ebooks. (There are also many ebooks offered free by Sony, Amazon, and other sources for the various ebook devices, so they all provide a source of some free books.)

And do check out mobileread.com for more info on ebooks and devices than you ever would want to know!

Ginwen

I won't repeat the previous post since it's right above mine anyway, just my take on a few of the things mentioned in that post.

Battery Life: Most Kindle users leave off the wireless except when they need it, and get 2-3 weeks as well. Downside: You can't replace the battery yourself, so someday when it fails if I'm still using this I'll have to pay Amazon to replace it.

Browser: Agreed, it's not a real browser. It is good in a pinch, when travelling (Maui, where I was somewhat surprised it worked) I used it to check some scores, and check email from my housesitter (plus send an email), which was handy and saved me paying the hotel for their internet. I don't have a data package on my phone (why pay since I would barely use), and I don't have a laptop (I wouldn't want to bring one on vacation anyway, too much like home).

Wireless: It's awesome (I guess I mentioned that before, but I really do love it), it saves me some money between just downloading the samples, and getting a book when I really want it. I love when travelling and I finish the first book in a series, I can just grab the next one, no waiting. I also love the samples, I buy maybe 1/3 or 1/4 of the books I sample. Also thousands of free books via wireless from Feedbooks or Mobileread. I use my Amazon gift certs (from my Amazon Visa) to pay for all my books I buy from Amazon, so I haven't even spent any actual money (I'm not trying to say they're free or anything, but it feels like they are ).

Dictionary: Its just bells and whistles, but I end up using it more than I'd expect to. Authors like to use obscure words. The wikipedia is a handy too, especially when you're reading some Dan Brown book.

Size: Definitely a bit bigger than I hoped it would be--I can't fit it in my pocket so I ended up getting a mini-laptop case for when I'm carrying it around. It would be cool if I could fit it in my pocket, it's thin enough (almost too thin to read without the case) but too big around.

Library Books: I hope someday Amazon realizes making this hard is stupid of them. That said, it took me about 45 minutes (and a bit of help from Mobileread) to figure out how to put library books on my Kindle. It would take a bit longer now, because Mobileread had to take the instructions down (so you have to look harder) after kindle books became readable on I-Phones. Once you get it setup, it takes you a few seconds to make a book readable on your kindle (I just wish the library had a bigger selection).

Anyway, they're both good, but some of drmoze's comments haven't been my experience. I think if I bought one today, I'd still buy the kindle, because in my case I love the wireless, and so far, the kindle store has a whole lot bigger selection than the sony store does (according to mobileread, anyway, I haven't checked for myself). My main reservation about kindle has to do with their behavior re:1984, and also the fact that they made it more hard to get library books (by threatening websites that hosted the files needed to get your kindle's id). Oh also the lack of folders is very annoying with 300+ books, I'm not sure if the other readers have folders but it would be a big plus if they did.

At mobileread, you'll find people with both (and probably a few others too) so you can get a more objective view than either of us can offer. Obviously we're both happy with our choices and it seems like most people are, so I guess they're both pretty good.

Edit: Mobileread even has a whole subforum dedicated to which one should I buy (in which I notice drmoze has a post or two).

Anie

Gizmodo's Wilson Rothman has a detailed recent review of the Sony models. He knows those and the Kindle very well and what the features are and how they work. He doesn't judge by how 'cool' or laughable he finds the look of a model but on what they can or can't do. You can read his review of the Pocket and Touch models by googling
gizmodo too many compromises

He does focus on functioning rather than looks. And does find the
wireless and study features important. For some they're not.

- Andrys

Psi

One thing which you shouldn't over look is glare, whether from reading outdoors or even near a window or a lamp. I've found that the Kindle handles glare quite well, while the Sony was distractingly bad (this was on a 2 year old model. I'm not sure about the new ones).

kenbuzz

And now to even more thoroughly confuse matters, we have the B&N entry. I caught my wife checking out the specs on the "Nook" (or whatever it's called), and I wish it wasn't as good as it seems to be - it's only gonna make it harder to pick one for her.

Supermallet

I haven't tried the Kindle. but purely on specs, Nook seems to be a lot more capable, user friendly, and generally open. Check out the info on the Nook, it's really impressive and B&N's system seems very good. I pre-ordered mine and am looking forward to using it.

Anie

Am just checking back after a 3-wk vacation.

"A lot more capable" ? Of what? It doesn't have text to speech, that makes it possible to stop reading a book, get into your car and have it read the next portion to you (or have it do that while you're cooking) when you need to finish a book on a deadline.

It doesn't have direct access to other web sites. Only to the B&N store and the library through it. The web surfing on the Kindle, slow as it may be but surprisingly ok on pure text sites, is worth at least $30/mo. and is very useful for those who prefer not to pay that monthly cost on their smartphones.

In all other countries that now have wireless for Int'l Kindle (about a hundred of these), people will be able to search Wikipedia online for free whenever they want even if direct-web-browsing is disabled there. (It's enabled for Japan, Hong Kong, Mexico, and one other was added recently.)

Has anyone played with one yet? Some reporters have now seen a video of it working, but no unit has been available for reviewers it. What are the search results like? And do they put your annotations for any book on a private web page, as Amazon does when you authorize backups of those?

What is battery life like, with the color LCD screen at the bottom?

As for 'more open' - kindle books are now readable on your pc or tablet, with a Kindle app for Win XP, Vista, Win7. You don't need a Kindle to read the book, and the Kindle book pricing is good, relative to B&N's.

What's useful re B&N's Nook is direct reading of ePub while with the Kindle you have to do a conversion that takes about 3 minutes to be able to read a book in ePub. The library option will be good too. But my own interest would be more in being able to do web searches anytime I want, anywhere, for no added cost.

- Andrys