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Old 11-30-16, 08:00 PM   #101
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Re: The Dark Tower

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Originally Posted by Jay G. View Post
The Tower communicated, both to Roland and to us, that he has a chance for salvation if he makes the right choices, if he "stays true." He knows what that means based on a lifetime of experience, and we know what that means from reading the books.
That the Tower communicated to Roland is highly debatable, if you have no memory of a conversation, does it occur? If you tell something to someone that is sound asleep, have you communicated with them. If Roland is not allowed to retain the information, he can't use it.A sk Roland if it communicated with him. Lol.

So all he has to do is "stay true" huh. True to what? You say he knows what that means from a lifetime of experiences and we know from reading the book. But you also said that the Tower has changed him and his experiences and we haven't read that story of how he has been changed. Which brings me back to my point that if the Tower wants him to achieve a goal, it has to give him guidance of what is expected. The new Roland will have new experiences and he will only be able to react to situation based on those experiences. If you want him to be a good guy, then you better make sure that the new experiences that you provided for him will lead him to the conclusions that you want. Thats the only options that work, you either. let him retain memories to make improvements based on his past or you set up his life so he can't fail. Anything else is setting him up for failure. Telling him to stay true and then changing the course is bullshit.

Last edited by MScottM; 11-30-16 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 11-30-16, 08:40 PM   #102
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Re: The Dark Tower

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If The Tower had Roland retain his memories and told him exactly what to do in his journey to reach Nirvana, that wouldn't be actual redemption because he wouldn't be doing those actions because he decided it, but because the Tower told him to do it. It'd be the opposite of free will, and Roland wouldn't grow as a person.

Again, in Groundhog Day, nobody told Phil Connors how to break the loop. what the "correct" way to live the day was. He just kept reliving the day until he realized that the best way to relive it over and over was by improving himself (taking piano lessons) and being selfless and helping others. He figured that out on his own, and the universe rewarded him by giving him a girlfriend and breaking the loop. Now, would you consider that experience as one done by a force cruel and malevolent? I mean, Phil does reach a low point where he commits suicide several times, he clearly wants out.
I am not suggesting that the Tower tells him exactly what to do, I am suggesting guidance. Your mother didn't tell you exactly what to do when she said be good. She didn't say, don't kill the neighbor, don't rape your girlfriend, dont cheat the story clerk. She provided guidance on what was acceptable behavior and what wasn't. Without telling you exactly what to do.

As for retaining the memory, the Groundhog Day idea you have there is exactly my point. No one told Phil Connors how to break the loop, the "correct" way to live the day. He just kept reliving it until he realised the best way to relive it was by improving himself. He realised,he REALISED, based on his past experiences and MEMORIES that ths was the best way to do it. (By the way, its been a while but I think the piano lessons were being used to impress a woman for the chance to bed her).

Phil's suicide attempts were a low point. He came to the conclusion that he would rather be dead than to continue as he was.

He didn't know that living a more selfless and giving life would end the loop, he just realised that if he was going to have to relive that day for eternity, he might as well be kind as be evil as he started. The experiences that he gathered and retained throughout his journey allowed him to make improvements. Not starting from zero every day allowed that. His choosing to be a better person was based entirely on being able to retain his memories.
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Old 11-30-16, 09:03 PM   #103
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Re: The Dark Tower

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This is incredibly sexist, and you shouldn't say things like that to anyone, male or female.
Finally, I don't know if you are serious here but I will assume that you are and that saddens me. What I said wasn't sexist at all, what it was was an amusing anecdote on how men and women as a general rule think differently and how their viewpoints differ. This thing has happened to me many times and to others I know and I assume happens to the general population.

Men and women do generally see things differently and if you have never encountered the scenario I outlined, I assure you, you will.

The fact that you think it is sexist says to me that you have no sense of humor. It's funny.
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Old 11-30-16, 09:18 PM   #104
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Re: The Dark Tower

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Finally, I don't know if you are serious here but I will assume that you are and that saddens me. What I said wasn't sexist at all, what it was was an amusing anecdote on how men and women as a general rule think differently and how their viewpoints differ. This thing has happened to me many times and to others I know and I assume happens to the general population.

Men and women do generally see things differently and if you have never encountered the scenario I outlined, I assure you, you will.

The fact that you think it is sexist says to me that you have no sense of humor. It's funny.
Oh lord...
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Old 11-30-16, 10:30 PM   #105
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Re: The Dark Tower

I feel like I'm caught in an endless loop.
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Old 12-01-16, 06:13 AM   #106
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Re: The Dark Tower

Yeah, we really seem to have strayed from the subject. And neither of us seems to have changed our opinions about that subject. So I think I am done discussing it.

I still don't like the "ending" and I don't think I ever will.

They are doing the movie now and so there is hope that they will at least change that.

Jay, it's been an interesting discussion of your point of view. You got me thinking about it in a different way than I had, I don't necessary agree with your views but you did make me see where you were coming from.

I am sorry if my views or ideas offended you as that was not my intent.

I wish you luck in your own journey.Take care.
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Old 12-01-16, 08:16 AM   #107
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Re: The Dark Tower

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Yeah, we really seem to have strayed from the subject. And neither of us seems to have changed our opinions about that subject. So I think I am done discussing it.

I still don't like the "ending" and I don't think I ever will.
Well, there's two different debates here: what you think the ending actually means, and whether you like that ending or not.

I feel the evidence clearly shows that The Tower hasn't sentenced Roland to "endless damnation," but a journey where he's able to change himself, which then affects subsequent loops, towards a goal of salvation. Whether you like that ending or not, I do feel that interpretation is correct.

I'll leave some other discussion where it lays, but since I can't resist one last nitpick:
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By the way, its been a while but I think the piano lessons were being used to impress a woman for the chance to bed her
This is wrong. Phil only took up piano lessons after he had already given up trying to "bed" Rita.
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Old 12-01-16, 01:22 PM   #108
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Re: The Dark Tower

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They are doing the movie now and so there is hope that they will at least change that.
Rumor is that the movies will be a sequel to the novels, which would mean that the movies will be Roland's final quest.
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Old 12-01-16, 01:26 PM   #109
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Re: The Dark Tower

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Rumor is that the movies will be a sequel to the novels, which would mean that the movies will be Roland's final quest.
Roland has the horn in the movie, and I think both the director and Stephen King have confirmed it takes place during a later loop than the books. It's not clear though that it will portray the "final" loop. Part of that will depend on if the film is successful enough for them to do sequels and/or the planned TV series, and whether the movie studio will allow such an open-ended ending to the movie series.
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