Anyone here ever had ANYTHING published?
04-08-07, 11:02 AM
#26
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Originally Posted by djmont
In most circumstance, I don't think there's anything wrong with simultaneous submissions.
Sorry, I know you don't want to agree to this, because you obviusly subscribe to this idea. My comments are nothing personal. I don't know the first thing about the quality of your writing. But it's an amateur tactic. The common mistake is that getting a lot of pieces out there in front of as many editors as possible is the way to "get published," when in fact, it just takes one good one sent to the right publication.
04-08-07, 11:06 AM
#27
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Originally Posted by Seeker
You can also publish yourself.
04-08-07, 11:48 AM
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The problem with seeing/stating things in absolutes?
Here is a list I found.
It must be true because I read it on the internet 
• What Color is Your Parachute by Episcopal clergymen Richard Nelson Bolles. 22 editions, 6 million copies, 11 languages and 288 weeks on the New York Times bestseller list. Now published by Ten Speed Press.
• The Christmas Box by Rick Evans. The 87-page book took him six weeks to write. He published it and promoted it himself. It did so well he sold out to Simon & Schuster for $4.2 million. It hit the top of the Publishers Weekly best-seller list and was translated into 13 Languages.
• The Beanie Baby Handbook by Lee and Sue Fox sold three million copies in two years and made #2 on the New York Time Bestseller list.
• In Search of Excellence by Tom Peters. More than 25,000 copies were sold directly to consumers in its first year. Then it was sold to Warner and the pub-lisher sold 10 million more.
• Real Peace—Richard Nixon in 1983.
• The Celestine Prophecy by James Redfield. His manuscript made the rounds of the mainstream houses and then he decided to publish himself. He started by selling copies out of the trunk of his Honda—over 100,000 of them. He sub-sequently sold out to Warner Books for $800,000. The number-one bestseller in 1996, it spent 165 weeks on The New York Times Bestseller list. More than 5.5 million copies have been sold.
• The One-Minute Manager by Ken Blanchard and Spencer Johnson sold more than 20,000 copies locally before they sold out to William Morrow. It has now sold more than 12-million copies since 1982 and is in 25 languages.
• Fifty Simple Things You Can Do to Save the Earth spent seven months on the New York Times bestseller list and sold 4.5 million copies in its original and premium editions.
• The Elements of Style by William Strunk, Jr. (and his student E. B. White) as originally self-published for his classes at Cornell University in 1918. Now selling some 300,000 copies each year, more than 10 million have been sold so far.
• A Time to Kill by John Grisham. He sold his first work out of the trunk of his car.
• The Joy of Cooking by Irma Rombauer was self-published in 1931 as a pro-ject of the First Unitarian Women’s Alliance in St. Louis. Today Scribners sells more than 100,000 copies each year.
• How to Keep Your Volkswagen Alive by John Muir has sold 2.3 million cop-ies since 1969 and led to the establishment of a publishing company.
• Leadership Secrets of Attila the Hun by Wess Roberts sold 486,000 copies be-fore selling out to Warner Books.
• Embraced by the Light by Betty J. Eadie spent 76 weeks on the New York Times Hardcover Bestseller List, 123 weeks on the Paperback List and was sold to Bantam Books for $1.5-million. The audio rights brought in another $100,000. Then she established Onjinjinkta Publishing to publisher her future projects.
• Sugar Busters! by four Louisiana doctors and a former CEO sold 165,000 copies regionally in just a year and a half. Then they sold out to Ballantine Books. It spent 192 weeks on PWs bestseller list. There are more than 2 million in print after 49 printings.
• The Wealthy Barber by David Chilton has sold more than a million copies in Canada (second only to the Bible in Canada) and two million in the US. • When I Am an Old Woman I Shall Wear Purple has been through the press 42 times for 1.5 million in print. It allowed Sanda Haldeman Martz to build Paper Mâché Press.
• Mary Ellen’s Best of Helpful Hints by Mary Ellen Pinkham became a bestsel-ler and then she sold out to Warner Books.
• The Macintosh Bible by Arthur Naiman has become the best-selling book on Apple products with over 900,000 sold. • Dianetics by L. Ron Hubbard has been in print more than 45 years, 20 mil-lion copies are in print and it has been translated into 22 languages. The book started a movement and later a church.
• Mutant Message Down Under by Marlo Morgan sold 370,000 copies before it was sold to HarperCollins for $1.7 million. It was sold to two book clubs and the foreign rights were sold to 14 countries.
• Feed Me, I’m Yours by Vicky Lansky was rejected by 49 publishers so she self-published and sold 300,000 copies. She sold out to Bantam and they sold 8 million more. Since then, she has written 23 more books.
• The Encyclopedia of Associations by Frederick Ruffner led to the establish-ment of Gale Research Company with 500 employees.
• The Lazy Man’s Way to Riches. Joe Karbo never sold out and never courted bookstores. He sold millions of his books via full page ads in newspapers and magazines.
• Twelve Golden Threads by Aliske Webb was rejected by 150 publishers. Af-ter self-publishing and selling 25,000 copies, she signed a four-book contract with HarperCollins.
• Life’s Little Instruction Book was initially self-published by H. Jackson Brown. Then it was purchased by Rutledge Hill Press. It made the top of the New York Times Bestseller List in hardcover and soft at the same time. More than 5 million copies were sold.#
• The Jester Has Lost His Jingle by Barbara Salzman was turned down by eight publishers. The glossy hardcover book made it to The New York TimesBestsellers list.
• Let’s Cook Microwave by Barbara Harris sold more than 700,000 copies. • Juggling for the Complete Klutz by John Cassidy has sold more than two mil-lion copies and lead to the establishment of Klutz Press with more than 50 award-winning books.
• Ben Dominitz published Travel Free and then founded Prima Publishing. Prima now has 1,500 titles, 140 employees and does $60-million a year.
• How to Flatten Your Stomach by Jim Everrode was self-published before he sold out to Price\Stern\Sloan. Since then, the book has sold more than two-million copies.
• Robert’s Rules of Order was first published by Henry Martyn Robert, an Army engineering officer in 1876. It is now in its ninth revised edition. See http://RobertsRules.com
• Red Sky in Mourning by Tami Oldham Ashcraft and Susea McGearhart was self-published and then sold to Hyperion for an estimated $500,000.
• Stephen King self-published an eBook titled The Plant and sold it online for $1/chapter.
• The Guide to Getting it on was self-published by Paul Joannides was turned down by a number of publishers as being too racy. After being adopted as a text by more than 20 colleges and selling 150,000 copies, many of those same publishers approached him with offers.
• Diets Don’t Work has sold more than 600,000 copies since being self-published in 1982.
• Howe!, published in 1995 by Colleen & hockey great Gordie Howe has sold nearly 135,000 copies in hardcover and raised $1 million for charitable causes.
• Dry It! You'll Like It (the bible of food dehydrating, essentially) by Gen MacManiman is now in its 29th printing since 1973 with 280,000 sold. • Life's Greatest Lessons: 20 things I want my kids to know by Hal Urban was published by Nelson in 1992. It sold 16,000 copies. Urban republished it him-self and sold 60,000 copies. In 2001, he sold out to Simon & Schuster for low six-figures.
• Karen E. Quinones-Miller sold 24,000 copies of her self-published novel, Satin Doll in 8 months. Satin Doll was sold to Simon & Schuster in auction less than one year after it was released.
• Mary E. Morrison had similar success with her book Soul Mates Dissipate, selling 10,000 books in six months and getting a six figure deal with Kensington.
• Jane Nelsen self-published, "Positive Discipline" and sold 80,000 copies be-fore selling out to Ballantine, an imprint of Random House. It has now sold close to one million copies.
• Jane Nelsen self-published "Understanding: Four Principles for Eliminating Stress" and sold 40,000 before selling out to Prima, who renamed the book, "From Here to Serenity" and sold another 40,000. Random House sold out to Three Rivers Press, and imprint of Random House.
• H. Stephen Glenn and Jane Nelsen self published, "Raising Children for Success" and sold 20,000 copies before selling to Prima who renamed the book, "Raising Self-Reliant Children in a Self-Indulgent World." It has now sold close to 300,000 copies. Prima sold out to Three Rivers Press, an imprint of Random House.
•The Self-Publishing Manual by Dan Poynter has 190,000 copies in print after 15 revised editions since 1979. The publisher is Para Publishing (Dan Poynter). As a result of this book, Poynter has been called “the godfather to thousands of books.”
Other well-known self-publishers include: Deepak Chopra, Louise Hay, Mark Twain, Ken Keyes, Jr., Gertrude Stein, Zane Grey, Upton Sinclair, Carl Sand-burg, James Joyce, D.H. Lawrence, Ezra Pound, Edgar Rice Burroughs, Stephen Crane, Mary Baker Eddy, George Bernard Shaw, Anais Nin, Thomas Paine, Virginia Wolff, e.e. Cummings, William Blake, Edgar Allen Poe, Rudyard Kipling, Henry David Thoreau, Benjamin Franklin, Walt Whitman, Alexandre Dumas, William E.B. DuBois, and Robert Ringer. More rejection numbers: Dr. Seuss – 23 rejections M*A*S*H - 22 rejections Jonathan Livingston Seagull – 18 rejections. It was first published in three articles in Private Pilot magazine. The Peter Principle – 16 rejections Kon-Tiki – 20 rejections Para Publishing, PO Box 8206, Santa Barbara, CA 93118-8206 USA Tel: (805) 968-7277
• The Christmas Box by Rick Evans. The 87-page book took him six weeks to write. He published it and promoted it himself. It did so well he sold out to Simon & Schuster for $4.2 million. It hit the top of the Publishers Weekly best-seller list and was translated into 13 Languages.
• The Beanie Baby Handbook by Lee and Sue Fox sold three million copies in two years and made #2 on the New York Time Bestseller list.
• In Search of Excellence by Tom Peters. More than 25,000 copies were sold directly to consumers in its first year. Then it was sold to Warner and the pub-lisher sold 10 million more.
• Real Peace—Richard Nixon in 1983.
• The Celestine Prophecy by James Redfield. His manuscript made the rounds of the mainstream houses and then he decided to publish himself. He started by selling copies out of the trunk of his Honda—over 100,000 of them. He sub-sequently sold out to Warner Books for $800,000. The number-one bestseller in 1996, it spent 165 weeks on The New York Times Bestseller list. More than 5.5 million copies have been sold.
• The One-Minute Manager by Ken Blanchard and Spencer Johnson sold more than 20,000 copies locally before they sold out to William Morrow. It has now sold more than 12-million copies since 1982 and is in 25 languages.
• Fifty Simple Things You Can Do to Save the Earth spent seven months on the New York Times bestseller list and sold 4.5 million copies in its original and premium editions.
• The Elements of Style by William Strunk, Jr. (and his student E. B. White) as originally self-published for his classes at Cornell University in 1918. Now selling some 300,000 copies each year, more than 10 million have been sold so far.
• A Time to Kill by John Grisham. He sold his first work out of the trunk of his car.
• The Joy of Cooking by Irma Rombauer was self-published in 1931 as a pro-ject of the First Unitarian Women’s Alliance in St. Louis. Today Scribners sells more than 100,000 copies each year.
• How to Keep Your Volkswagen Alive by John Muir has sold 2.3 million cop-ies since 1969 and led to the establishment of a publishing company.
• Leadership Secrets of Attila the Hun by Wess Roberts sold 486,000 copies be-fore selling out to Warner Books.
• Embraced by the Light by Betty J. Eadie spent 76 weeks on the New York Times Hardcover Bestseller List, 123 weeks on the Paperback List and was sold to Bantam Books for $1.5-million. The audio rights brought in another $100,000. Then she established Onjinjinkta Publishing to publisher her future projects.
• Sugar Busters! by four Louisiana doctors and a former CEO sold 165,000 copies regionally in just a year and a half. Then they sold out to Ballantine Books. It spent 192 weeks on PWs bestseller list. There are more than 2 million in print after 49 printings.
• The Wealthy Barber by David Chilton has sold more than a million copies in Canada (second only to the Bible in Canada) and two million in the US. • When I Am an Old Woman I Shall Wear Purple has been through the press 42 times for 1.5 million in print. It allowed Sanda Haldeman Martz to build Paper Mâché Press.
• Mary Ellen’s Best of Helpful Hints by Mary Ellen Pinkham became a bestsel-ler and then she sold out to Warner Books.
• The Macintosh Bible by Arthur Naiman has become the best-selling book on Apple products with over 900,000 sold. • Dianetics by L. Ron Hubbard has been in print more than 45 years, 20 mil-lion copies are in print and it has been translated into 22 languages. The book started a movement and later a church.
• Mutant Message Down Under by Marlo Morgan sold 370,000 copies before it was sold to HarperCollins for $1.7 million. It was sold to two book clubs and the foreign rights were sold to 14 countries.
• Feed Me, I’m Yours by Vicky Lansky was rejected by 49 publishers so she self-published and sold 300,000 copies. She sold out to Bantam and they sold 8 million more. Since then, she has written 23 more books.
• The Encyclopedia of Associations by Frederick Ruffner led to the establish-ment of Gale Research Company with 500 employees.
• The Lazy Man’s Way to Riches. Joe Karbo never sold out and never courted bookstores. He sold millions of his books via full page ads in newspapers and magazines.
• Twelve Golden Threads by Aliske Webb was rejected by 150 publishers. Af-ter self-publishing and selling 25,000 copies, she signed a four-book contract with HarperCollins.
• Life’s Little Instruction Book was initially self-published by H. Jackson Brown. Then it was purchased by Rutledge Hill Press. It made the top of the New York Times Bestseller List in hardcover and soft at the same time. More than 5 million copies were sold.#
• The Jester Has Lost His Jingle by Barbara Salzman was turned down by eight publishers. The glossy hardcover book made it to The New York TimesBestsellers list.
• Let’s Cook Microwave by Barbara Harris sold more than 700,000 copies. • Juggling for the Complete Klutz by John Cassidy has sold more than two mil-lion copies and lead to the establishment of Klutz Press with more than 50 award-winning books.
• Ben Dominitz published Travel Free and then founded Prima Publishing. Prima now has 1,500 titles, 140 employees and does $60-million a year.
• How to Flatten Your Stomach by Jim Everrode was self-published before he sold out to Price\Stern\Sloan. Since then, the book has sold more than two-million copies.
• Robert’s Rules of Order was first published by Henry Martyn Robert, an Army engineering officer in 1876. It is now in its ninth revised edition. See http://RobertsRules.com
• Red Sky in Mourning by Tami Oldham Ashcraft and Susea McGearhart was self-published and then sold to Hyperion for an estimated $500,000.
• Stephen King self-published an eBook titled The Plant and sold it online for $1/chapter.
• The Guide to Getting it on was self-published by Paul Joannides was turned down by a number of publishers as being too racy. After being adopted as a text by more than 20 colleges and selling 150,000 copies, many of those same publishers approached him with offers.
• Diets Don’t Work has sold more than 600,000 copies since being self-published in 1982.
• Howe!, published in 1995 by Colleen & hockey great Gordie Howe has sold nearly 135,000 copies in hardcover and raised $1 million for charitable causes.
• Dry It! You'll Like It (the bible of food dehydrating, essentially) by Gen MacManiman is now in its 29th printing since 1973 with 280,000 sold. • Life's Greatest Lessons: 20 things I want my kids to know by Hal Urban was published by Nelson in 1992. It sold 16,000 copies. Urban republished it him-self and sold 60,000 copies. In 2001, he sold out to Simon & Schuster for low six-figures.
• Karen E. Quinones-Miller sold 24,000 copies of her self-published novel, Satin Doll in 8 months. Satin Doll was sold to Simon & Schuster in auction less than one year after it was released.
• Mary E. Morrison had similar success with her book Soul Mates Dissipate, selling 10,000 books in six months and getting a six figure deal with Kensington.
• Jane Nelsen self-published, "Positive Discipline" and sold 80,000 copies be-fore selling out to Ballantine, an imprint of Random House. It has now sold close to one million copies.
• Jane Nelsen self-published "Understanding: Four Principles for Eliminating Stress" and sold 40,000 before selling out to Prima, who renamed the book, "From Here to Serenity" and sold another 40,000. Random House sold out to Three Rivers Press, and imprint of Random House.
• H. Stephen Glenn and Jane Nelsen self published, "Raising Children for Success" and sold 20,000 copies before selling to Prima who renamed the book, "Raising Self-Reliant Children in a Self-Indulgent World." It has now sold close to 300,000 copies. Prima sold out to Three Rivers Press, an imprint of Random House.
•The Self-Publishing Manual by Dan Poynter has 190,000 copies in print after 15 revised editions since 1979. The publisher is Para Publishing (Dan Poynter). As a result of this book, Poynter has been called “the godfather to thousands of books.”
Other well-known self-publishers include: Deepak Chopra, Louise Hay, Mark Twain, Ken Keyes, Jr., Gertrude Stein, Zane Grey, Upton Sinclair, Carl Sand-burg, James Joyce, D.H. Lawrence, Ezra Pound, Edgar Rice Burroughs, Stephen Crane, Mary Baker Eddy, George Bernard Shaw, Anais Nin, Thomas Paine, Virginia Wolff, e.e. Cummings, William Blake, Edgar Allen Poe, Rudyard Kipling, Henry David Thoreau, Benjamin Franklin, Walt Whitman, Alexandre Dumas, William E.B. DuBois, and Robert Ringer. More rejection numbers: Dr. Seuss – 23 rejections M*A*S*H - 22 rejections Jonathan Livingston Seagull – 18 rejections. It was first published in three articles in Private Pilot magazine. The Peter Principle – 16 rejections Kon-Tiki – 20 rejections Para Publishing, PO Box 8206, Santa Barbara, CA 93118-8206 USA Tel: (805) 968-7277
04-08-07, 01:07 PM
#29
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Originally Posted by mgbfan
It's a tactic used by writers who know they're not very good. They're buying as many lottery tickets as they can in hopes one of them hits.
Sorry, I know you don't want to agree to this, because you obviusly subscribe to this idea. My comments are nothing personal. I don't know the first thing about the quality of your writing. But it's an amateur tactic. The common mistake is that getting a lot of pieces out there in front of as many editors as possible is the way to "get published," when in fact, it just takes one good one sent to the right publication.
Sorry, I know you don't want to agree to this, because you obviusly subscribe to this idea. My comments are nothing personal. I don't know the first thing about the quality of your writing. But it's an amateur tactic. The common mistake is that getting a lot of pieces out there in front of as many editors as possible is the way to "get published," when in fact, it just takes one good one sent to the right publication.
I also agree with your thoughts on self-publishing. When it comes to fiction at least, self-publishing is akin to giving up. In nearly all cases, writers would be better off shelving a work that doesn't sell after repeated attempts and starting anew, rather than going the vanity route.
04-08-07, 01:10 PM
#30
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p.s. I'm curious, mgbfan, what your background (on this subject) is.
(To avoid any misunderstanding, I don't ask that in a snarky fashion. I mean it sincerely.)
(To avoid any misunderstanding, I don't ask that in a snarky fashion. I mean it sincerely.)
04-08-07, 03:16 PM
#31
DVD Talk Legend
self-publishing is akin to giving up. In nearly all cases, writers would be better off shelving a work that doesn't sell after repeated attempts and starting anew
However, you ASSUME that everyone uses self-publishing as a LAST resort, and that isn't always the case.
My brother has had about 6 books published and now has a contract with Zondervan for five more. I have had 1 book published by a major publisher, and two pieces of my spouse's work are about to be published by a major publisher in anthologies. We have also had quite a few of our articles published in magazines (mostly on infertility). So we do know how to sell our work.
I also had a publisher ready to publish my first children's book, but I couldn't use the artist I wanted - so we decided to create our own publishing company as a FIRST resort.
In addition to our own books, we are soon to publish two books by other people - and now WE have to take the "will this work as a published book" mentality. We have a national distributor, but indeed we suffer the "small press" issues of getting distribution in all bookstores. Luckily, NBN sold Barnes & Noble on stocking the book, so at least one major chain has our book during Christmas.
As for "no quality testing" - winning a national award for one of the books should be some quality testing.
Last edited by Seeker; 04-08-07 at 03:21 PM.
04-08-07, 03:49 PM
#32
DVD Talk Limited Edition
I used to edit at a literary magazine as a grad student (Northwest Review). This is what I learned about the publishing process:
1. Make that first paragraph catchy because most of what is submitted is utter and total crap. You want the reader thinking yours is different right away, or it might be read with rejection in mind.
2. Spelling and punctuation matter, but not nearly as much as I had previously imagined. It is much easier to correct a little grammar than it is to make a bad story good.
3. A lot of literary fiction that is written is neither literary nor fictional, but what is published is usually both.
4. For short fiction the cover letter doesn't matter nearly as much as people think it does. If it's really bad, it will be mocked, but I never even read them until after reading the story, just to keep my perspective fresh.
5. For some reason, a lot of stories as submitted don't end when they should. One of the most common ways we would edit a story was to end it a page or two before the author did.
I would not simultaneously submit in a small market because you could burn bridges. I wouldn't, for example, submit to Glimmer Train and Zyzzyva at the same time because you could tick off a paying editor, and let's face it, they're pretty rare. I'm not sure submitting to Glimmer Train and a non paying market at the same time would be wise, because wouldn't you want to work your way down? What if your story was accepted at the non-paying market first? I wouldn't do it in the science fiction market, though the one writer I know of who had a story accepted at Science Fiction Age and Azimov's at the same time survived it with only minimal egg on his face. Simultaneous submissions presume your story isn't good enough to be accepted.
I also wouldn't send multiple submissions (several stories to the same place). It seemed like I could almost count on the fact that the more stories a writer sent me at once, the worse they would be. Also, read the writers' guidelines for the magazine you're sending too and adhere to them, especially regarding length.
1. Make that first paragraph catchy because most of what is submitted is utter and total crap. You want the reader thinking yours is different right away, or it might be read with rejection in mind.
2. Spelling and punctuation matter, but not nearly as much as I had previously imagined. It is much easier to correct a little grammar than it is to make a bad story good.
3. A lot of literary fiction that is written is neither literary nor fictional, but what is published is usually both.
4. For short fiction the cover letter doesn't matter nearly as much as people think it does. If it's really bad, it will be mocked, but I never even read them until after reading the story, just to keep my perspective fresh.
5. For some reason, a lot of stories as submitted don't end when they should. One of the most common ways we would edit a story was to end it a page or two before the author did.
I would not simultaneously submit in a small market because you could burn bridges. I wouldn't, for example, submit to Glimmer Train and Zyzzyva at the same time because you could tick off a paying editor, and let's face it, they're pretty rare. I'm not sure submitting to Glimmer Train and a non paying market at the same time would be wise, because wouldn't you want to work your way down? What if your story was accepted at the non-paying market first? I wouldn't do it in the science fiction market, though the one writer I know of who had a story accepted at Science Fiction Age and Azimov's at the same time survived it with only minimal egg on his face. Simultaneous submissions presume your story isn't good enough to be accepted.
I also wouldn't send multiple submissions (several stories to the same place). It seemed like I could almost count on the fact that the more stories a writer sent me at once, the worse they would be. Also, read the writers' guidelines for the magazine you're sending too and adhere to them, especially regarding length.
Last edited by tasha99; 04-08-07 at 03:52 PM.
04-08-07, 07:20 PM
#33
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I won a poetry contest in High School which was published in a book of several others - but for the life of me right now I can't thinsk of the name of ir or evens find a copy of the poem.
KK
KK
04-09-07, 09:04 AM
#34
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I agree that self-publishing follows Sturgeon's Law like everything else does.
The fact that anyone can publish largely negates Sturgeon's Law -- if you buy a book from a regular publisher, you know that it's made it past an editor who thought, "This is good enough that the company can make a profit selling it." In self publishing, there might be a few books out there that are good but don't have a wide enough appeal for a regular publisher, but these are out-numbered by books that are simply unsaleable. (I'm talking about prose fiction here. The rules for poetry are completely different.)
I must admit that I'm soured on self-published authors because in rec.arts.sf.written we get at least one a week posting a message like, "buy my brilyant new book its about a space alien whos lost on erth and befrends a litle boy."
04-09-07, 09:07 AM
#35
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Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara
I must admit that I'm soured on self-published authors because in rec.arts.sf.written we get at least one a week posting a message like, "buy my brilyant new book its about a space alien whos lost on erth and befrends a litle boy."
04-09-07, 09:59 AM
#36
Moderator
If you want to be published:
1. You should be reading everyday.
2. You should be writing everyday.
3. You should be visiting your post office every week.
I'm an award-winning editorial cartoonist with a (very) small handful of written pieces out there, too.
1. You should be reading everyday.
2. You should be writing everyday.
3. You should be visiting your post office every week.
I'm an award-winning editorial cartoonist with a (very) small handful of written pieces out there, too.
04-09-07, 03:09 PM
#37
DVD Talk Legend
but don't have a wide enough appeal for a regular publisher,
I absolutely agree that most self-publishing is total crap - stuff that cannot and should not even exist in the universe.
But the key word is MOST, whereas the continually repeated statement here is that "self-publishing ONLY occurs when no one else will publish it." - sorry, but that's just not ALWAYS the case.
Again - I'll state over and over (and I've seen it myself because now people send ME garbage to publish for them) that there is so much garbage in the self-publishing arena that it is hard to separate the little bit of wheat from the monument of chaff....
and indeed that makes it ever so much harder for the "little startup publishers" to accomplish anything worthwhile, but the TOTAL (100%) rejection just is not appropriate.
04-09-07, 03:17 PM
#38
DVD Talk Legend
Well the first reason to avoid self-publishing is that a lot of the companies out there are scams -- they charge you for publishing, they charge you for an editor, they charge you for storage space, they charge you for shipping if you do manage to get a store to carry the book.
04-09-07, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Seeker
Again - I'll state over and over (and I've seen it myself because now people send ME garbage to publish for them) that there is so much garbage in the self-publishing arena that it is hard to separate the little bit of wheat from the monument of chaff...
You wouldn't want to eat at a restaurant where 9 out of 10 meals were bad. And you wouldn't want to buy a book from a publisher or an author who offered even worse odds. At least if the book is published by Random House, you have a reasonable expectation of quality. But with a self-published book, you don't have that.
It's hard enough for authors who are published by traditional publishing houses, including the major NY publishers, to find readers and succeed. And that's with all the advantages that a large house can give you, in terms of marketing, distribution, promotion and publicity.
Now imagine trying to climb that hill knowing that nobody knows who you are, nobody knows who your publisher is, you're not going to have any meaningful distribution, you're not going to get reviewed -- and all the while it's going to be costing you money out of your pocket, instead of you being paid.
Every once in a while lightning strikes and that one-in-a-million book breaks out -- and is promptly snapped up by a large New York publishing house. (You'll notice that all self-publishing success stories end with "And then I sold my book to Simon & Schuster.") If the self-publishing business model were preferable in its own rights, the story wouldn't end that way.
I think we're starting to go in circles here, so I'll bow out now.
04-09-07, 06:33 PM
#41
DVD Talk Legend
Ok, let me bow out as well, but with a final statement:
WITHOUT the self publishing business, there wouldn't be that occasional one in a million book that breaks out. and THOSE one-in-a-million books are the ones that can CHANGE the industry - like Chicken Soup for the Soul, as one example.
The publishing industry is stagnant. It's DYING. The advent of the internet and the proliferation of instant access to information is KILLING the standard publishing industries. Only Scholastic can claim to be making a true profit these days, due to Mr. Harry Potter and Ms. JK Rowling.
The self-publishing industry, by definition, produces 99% crap and the 1% better than the best. But in a sense, that tiny gem that sparkles is going to be one of the direction setters for the industry - it has done so in the past and will do so in the future.
Time for me to bow out as well.
WITHOUT the self publishing business, there wouldn't be that occasional one in a million book that breaks out. and THOSE one-in-a-million books are the ones that can CHANGE the industry - like Chicken Soup for the Soul, as one example.
The publishing industry is stagnant. It's DYING. The advent of the internet and the proliferation of instant access to information is KILLING the standard publishing industries. Only Scholastic can claim to be making a true profit these days, due to Mr. Harry Potter and Ms. JK Rowling.
The self-publishing industry, by definition, produces 99% crap and the 1% better than the best. But in a sense, that tiny gem that sparkles is going to be one of the direction setters for the industry - it has done so in the past and will do so in the future.
Time for me to bow out as well.
Last edited by Seeker; 04-09-07 at 06:37 PM.
04-09-07, 06:35 PM
#42
DVD Talk Legend
I don't think self-publishing is a viable option in most cases
Thanks for saying "most". I agree whole-heartedly with that statement.
04-09-07, 07:51 PM
#43
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I've read one self published book, and when a character swore, he said, "*%#$&*&%!!!!" I'm not kidding--worst book I've read in my life, even though it has great reviews from the author's friends at Amazon.com.
04-09-07, 11:00 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by djmont
p.s. I'm curious, mgbfan, what your background (on this subject) is.
(To avoid any misunderstanding, I don't ask that in a snarky fashion. I mean it sincerely.)
(To avoid any misunderstanding, I don't ask that in a snarky fashion. I mean it sincerely.)
04-09-07, 11:06 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by Seeker
As for "no quality testing"
Originally Posted by Seeker
- winning a national award for one of the books should be some quality testing.
And I presume you know what I meant about quality checks. In self-publishing, there are none. That's not the same thing as saying that there cannot possibly be works of quality. Just that there's nobody to ensure it.
04-09-07, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by tasha99
I used to edit at a literary magazine as a grad student (Northwest Review). This is what I learned about the publishing process:
1. Make that first paragraph catchy because most of what is submitted is utter and total crap. You want the reader thinking yours is different right away, or it might be read with rejection in mind.
2. Spelling and punctuation matter, but not nearly as much as I had previously imagined. It is much easier to correct a little grammar than it is to make a bad story good.
3. A lot of literary fiction that is written is neither literary nor fictional, but what is published is usually both.
4. For short fiction the cover letter doesn't matter nearly as much as people think it does. If it's really bad, it will be mocked, but I never even read them until after reading the story, just to keep my perspective fresh.
5. For some reason, a lot of stories as submitted don't end when they should. One of the most common ways we would edit a story was to end it a page or two before the author did.
I would not simultaneously submit in a small market because you could burn bridges. ... I also wouldn't send multiple submissions (several stories to the same place).
1. Make that first paragraph catchy because most of what is submitted is utter and total crap. You want the reader thinking yours is different right away, or it might be read with rejection in mind.
2. Spelling and punctuation matter, but not nearly as much as I had previously imagined. It is much easier to correct a little grammar than it is to make a bad story good.
3. A lot of literary fiction that is written is neither literary nor fictional, but what is published is usually both.
4. For short fiction the cover letter doesn't matter nearly as much as people think it does. If it's really bad, it will be mocked, but I never even read them until after reading the story, just to keep my perspective fresh.
5. For some reason, a lot of stories as submitted don't end when they should. One of the most common ways we would edit a story was to end it a page or two before the author did.
I would not simultaneously submit in a small market because you could burn bridges. ... I also wouldn't send multiple submissions (several stories to the same place).
04-09-07, 11:13 PM
#47
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Originally Posted by Seeker
Only Scholastic can claim to be making a true profit these days, due to Mr. Harry Potter and Ms. JK Rowling.
Sorry, that was a low blow. But it's true.
04-10-07, 07:18 AM
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As mgbfan hints at, the publishing industry is actually quite profitable. That is why the major publishing companies were snapped up by mega-conglomerates -- Random House and Bantam Dell by Bertelsmann, Simon & Schuster by Viacom, Little Brown/Warner Books (et al) by Time-Warner and then Hachette, etc. They didn't buy the companies just for fun. The largest publishers have billions in revenue, with significant ROI.
That doesn't stop publishing from being a wacky, screwed-up industry. But despite their flaws, there's still tons of money coming in.
That doesn't stop publishing from being a wacky, screwed-up industry. But despite their flaws, there's still tons of money coming in.
04-10-07, 12:22 PM
#49
DVD Talk Legend
in generalities, self-publication is for works that weren't good enough to get published. I'm sure you would not disagree with that at a general rule.
)I'll also apologize for my incorrect data - it was both an old and inaccurate statement.
It should have been:
Only Scholastic can claim to be growing their profits these days, due to Mr. Harry Potter and Ms. JK Rowling.
(and this comment is no longer true, as some publishing company profits are now growing.)
04-11-07, 11:43 AM
#50
Moderator
Regarding simultaneous submissions:
I disagree. More and more publications understand that, despite their best wishes, more and more writers are making simultaneous submissions simply because the publication turn-around time on feedback is a looong time. One could wait months to hear back from a magazine or journal, and publications are beginning to understand writers are no longer at their mercy - it has to go both ways.
So my advice? Simultaneously submit, if you want to, though not more than say four or so at once (and that's pushing it). You may gain a reputation for being "that guy," but if you get enough good work published, they'll be coming to you, instead of the other way around.
Oh, and if anyone here is interested in an online writing workshop, http://www.scrawlers.com just started in the last month - you write and post a 100-word original story and other users vote and give notes on it, while you vote and give notes on theirs. Kinda neat - as close to an in-person workshop as you're gonna get online.
Originally Posted by mgbfan
It's a tactic used by writers who know they're not very good. They're buying as many lottery tickets as they can in hopes one of them hits.
So my advice? Simultaneously submit, if you want to, though not more than say four or so at once (and that's pushing it). You may gain a reputation for being "that guy," but if you get enough good work published, they'll be coming to you, instead of the other way around.
Oh, and if anyone here is interested in an online writing workshop, http://www.scrawlers.com just started in the last month - you write and post a 100-word original story and other users vote and give notes on it, while you vote and give notes on theirs. Kinda neat - as close to an in-person workshop as you're gonna get online.
