Wait a second. According to some of your guys' opinion, if I bring my hypothetical son up in a Christian home, it's indoctrination. The framework of your argument is saying since I'm rearing my child up according to my own worldviews, they're being 'brainwashed' in a sense. If you're going to say that, then that must mean the Muslim, the Mormon, the Atheist, the Jew, The Diest, the Protestant, ad infinitum, are doing the same exact thing. And it must mean you're doing the same exact thing because you're bringing up your child according to your own worldviews. No matter how you slice it or dice it, we all have certain worldviews we pass to our children. I hope I'm making sense.

I hate to break it to you guys, but this sort of thing has been going on since the dawn of time. And what happens? The child grows, and at a certain point decides whether to a) keep his worldviews his parents taught him, b) change, or c) keep some and change some. And then the process repeats itself.

And thus it's 2007 and we still have religion.

Correct, in most cases.

No, you have it way wrong. No brainwashing here. I did not indoctrinate my child into believing anything when it comes to religion or the absence thereof. I am an atheist, yes, and in our household obviously there has been no semblance of formal religion of any kind.

Do we still teach right and wrong? Yes. Read Bible stories or pray to a man in the clouds? No.

I've always told her she is free to form and shape her own "world view" when it comes to accepting religion of any flavor or not, for example. That is her decision to make, and not one that I should force upon her. If she wanted to start going to a church/temple/mosque 7 nights a week I'd do what I could to make sure she got there and back, but I wouldn't join her. And she knows that. Because that's my decision.

And as far as religion is concerned, she also knows I'm not going to ridicule or belittle her if that's what she chooses to believe in. She should be prepared for the occasional discussion/debate if the topic comes up, however. But that's the same way I treat everyone. I'm not out to intentionally offend anyone, and I usually keep my personal atheist views to myself unless the subject comes up. And it's usually from religious people who seem to always assume everyone else is onboard with their particular belief system.

I'd rather have her be a free thinker developing her own "world views" than simply parroting what was fed to her as a child.

Quit forcing your values down your child's throat!

Just kidding.

I don't understand why the "indoctrination" of religion is somehow different that all the other indoctrination that goes on. Indoctrinating your kids that the War in Iraq was a mistake, that eating cows is wrong, that we must act quickly and expensively to stop global warming, that the liberals hate America and want troops to die, that Conservatives only love money and want old people to starve, etc.?

Your simple teaching of right from wrong is indoctrination, it just happens to be one that most of us are comfortable with and can agree on.

But why does Religion reach some "super special" level of indoctrination that is bad, but all the other stuff we do to teach our kids is okay?

That's a very good point. For me, religion seems to be a personal decision that should be made once all the other options have been examined. Do I need to have faith in some God or another? That just seems like something that should be one's own path to take, and not something learned by rote as a child and accepted because your parents want you to because their parents did.

The idea of a doing what's good or bad indoctrination is meant simply to help your kids exist as a good humans. Treat people nice, don't steal, etc. No extra rituals, guilt or baggage attached.

And I don't actually put that as the same level for these discussions, but the line gets very grey when you start talking about political indoctrination, environmental indoctrination, etc. At least I don't have to worry about my kids getting told about Jesus in the 1st grade, but I do have to deal with them coming home worried about Global Warming, just like I used to worry about the impending Ice Age when I was in the 1st grade.

I am far more worried about people who indoctrinate their children over the horror of Corporate Farms and how they treat animals, than I am about the bulk of people who simply teach their children about God.

Again, it isn't a big deal, but it seems like Atheists tend to be against the "indoctrination" of God, but fail to see the myriad other indoctrinations, many of which are nicely sponsored by the government and schools.

I disagree with that statement if you only are talking about atheists. Because I think people in general tend to miss or gloss over those other type of indoctrinations.

In my view, indoctrination into myth-based/organized religion--essentially establishing a faith-based belief system in a human being from the start--is VERY, VERY different from "indoctrination" into political, or dietary, or environmental, or other mindsets. I wouldn't even call those "indoctrination."

Religion is forced into kids' brains by sheer force of will, every day, every night, before meals, during punishment, every Sunday, with a sense of terrible, fist-shaking gravity. This is indoctrination. Brain-washing. This is the forced application of blinders to the major questions of life--where we came from, what life means, where we're all headed, if anywhere.

To put things like growing up within a family's political and dietary habits in the same breath as religious indoctrination is folly.

I think I'll just respond to your post the same way: Not really

If you are actually arguing that Science requires just as much faith as religion - then...wow.

The very concept of believing in a "big guy" in the sky who made me and answers my prayers requires the very definition of blind faith - unless god has appeared to me in person I believe that he is real. I have to have faith.

Science does not work on faith....sure, it is almost impossible to completely prove *anything*, but science requires no faith from anyone. Theories are developed to explain empirical data, then purposeful attempts are made to invalidate them. After a time, a theory will be assumed true - *in light of no future contradictory evidence*. Faith does not even play into it. When was the last time the Church changed it's position on anything because of scientific evidence? It rarely happens - belief persists in spite of knowledge.

Im sure you could make an argument for people that look to science for answers, and believe whatever any scientist tells them - but that would just be another form of blind faith. Believing what someone tells you is not science.

I also never said that religion and science are mutually exclusive. I don't believe they are unless you are a fundamentalist that takes the Bible literally - which you definitely don't seem to be.

You seem slightly defensive at the thought that your faith in Religion might be blind - but I ask, how could it be any other way?

I believe Sam Harris would answer that religious indoctrination is bad because, put simply, it divides communities. And the division is often violent. A powerful case in point would be the conflict between Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq---just one of the innumerable religious wars.

One might counter and say that other political/social indoctrinations are also destructive; however, I don't think a fair assessment will allow us to say to be indoctrinated as a vegan is on the same level as being indoctrinated as a violent Islamist.

Why is it "fine" to walk away like that? Isn't that ignorance?

Agreed - the major difference between Religious Indoctrination and what we'll just call "learning" is: Religion teaches faith - and blind faith at that. Religious faith is not to be questioned. Faith and Belief are presented as positive attributes. Things to be highly regarded and respected.

You just don't get that same form of zealotry with most any other subject. It is much much easier to question politics, history, or even morals later in life because they are not taught as cosmic certainties that are beyond the realm of questioning and reason. Religion has a way of persisting throughout someone’s entire life that is very hard to shake. Several of my older relatives are highly religious, and I believe they are that way because they simply don't know any other way. They were taught Religion is what you believe - and you never question it no matter what. The funny thing, is if they had been born in the Middle East, they would be the same exact way - only they would pray on a floor mat in an Easterly direction a few times a day.

I agree 100%. I was just speaking to this particular thread.

Veganism is forced into kids' brains by sheer force of will, every day, every night, every meal, every decision of what to wear, what to buy, what companies to support, etc.

You are just picking the extreme religious family, and I am picking the extreme vegan. There is no difference. It is indoctrination of values. The fact that one is about some made up major question of life is meaningless. You can't logically say that indoctrination of these values are bad because I disagree with them, but indoctrination of other values are okay because I have no beef with them. It also doesn't work to say that one form of indoctrination isn't as bad because the people don't believe it as much as they do other indoctrination.

It looks like you are trying to have it both ways. One form of indoctrination is bad because of what you perceive it to be while the others are harmless indoctrinations.

This is crap, unless you are talking about Islam. The Bible itself says, "Test everything. Hold on to the good."

This is like playing "It's not what you know, it's what you think you know." I certainly can't argue against what you guys think you know, or what your experiences are, but your impression that blind faith is demanded, etc. is just crap, and it seems like it is just a perception rather than a reality.

I would say it speaks more to the person than the religion, then. But I have never encountered someone who is religious that believes you never question it no matter what.

Because for day to day living, the average person doesn't need to know why something is, they just need to understand how it works.

Take gravity. All one really needs to know is that if you walk out of a window, you'll fall to the ground. Why this is happening is irrelevant.

Then your problem ought to be with indoctrination of intolerance and violence, and not religion. Certainly there are cases where they are the same, and I wouldn't support that. But I don't support people that blow up buildings that do research on animals either.

But I think if you don't like religion to begin with, it is easier to throw out someone else's baby with the bathwater.

So you are free to say to your child, "I do not believe in a God, here is why, but I welcome you to study the issue yourself", then why am I not free to say "I do believe in God, here is why, but I welcome you to study the issue yourself" without being labeled as a brainwasher of some sorts?

I will concede that I am liberal, so to speak, in my education. Meaning, I welcome the questioning, testing, and investigation of the Christian faith. Is the Bible accurate? Was Jesus really the Son of Man? What evidence is there for God? etc. And in my library I have books on various religions and atheism, so I can understand them better and for use as future references. If one day my child decided he wanted to read up on Islam per se, I'd say go for it. If he wanted to convert, that's his choice ultimately. So that while yes, I would be bringing my child up in a Christian home, he would be free to ask questions and such. After all, are you guys insinuating that I stop practicing my faith in case I "tarnish" my child? Am I suppose to go to church secretly? Read the Bible under my covers and quickly hide it if he comes in the room? And even if I practice my faith out in the open in front of my child, I'm still "indoctrinating" him by my example, am I not? Because surely, once he sees me reading my Bible every night, he'll ask what I'm reading, along with 100 other questions as children do.

I will also agree that yes, some religious homes can be quite "oppressive" and would be aghast if one were to start asking questions with probing inquiries as some of you suggested. For me, I would welcome such inquiries.

I disagree. Faith is supposed to be questioned. Christians are supposed to know the reasons for their faith. I, and every true Christian I know, has had doubts at various times, but grow in faith because of these doubts and the answers they find in an honest search for the truth.

I have faith in God because the evidence is so overwhelmingly in favor of His existence, and Jesus' resurrection.

If you are honestly equating growing up in a vegan family with an indoctrination into organized religion, all I can presume is that you yourself have been indoctrinated and therefore have a key blinder that prevents you from seeing the difference in magnitude. One is a digestive choice from which an adult can choose easily to break once he reaches a certain age. The other is a world view that is FAR more difficult to break from, as you yourself have shown in your arguments (from my point of view ).

I also think that you are an exception among the religious. I would predict that 1% of "the faithful" can think with such an open mind as yours. You just require that one final push to get you away from the evils of organized religion. Take the red pill!

No, I am saying they both require faith. I think I have been clear that I don't believe religion requires "blind" faith.

Sure, if that were all it was. The concept that a created universe had a creator is not on the same level as what you just stated.

The Catholic Church has a few times. Generally, though, I don't see most of what happens in science as having a real big theological implication.

I agree 100%. I am simply saying that there are a lot of people that believe that science disproves God, and don't know what the science is. They believe it on blind faith. I'm not saying the scientists do this.

Tricky one. I would be considered a fundamentalist by a lot of people, but probably no one in my own church. They are huge conspiracy theorists that are sure that scientists know the universe is only 6,000 years old but are hiding the evidence, or some such crap.

I don't mean to sound defensive. I probably do get that way in threads where it feels like I am trying to debate with multiple people. But I simply don't believe that my faith is blind. I admit that there are many that have blind faith, whether it be in religion, or anything else. But that isn't me. I don't believe out of some need to feel safe, or secure, or being afraid of death, etc. I believe because I think the evidence is compelling. And what might make me defensive is that most seem to treat that as an anomaly. But looking at Antony Flew (while not a Christian), he became a Theist on the same basis, the evidence points to it. So I think what bothers me is the idea that there are no people that believe in any theism based on the evidence, and that religious people are just following blindly. It would be like me telling a gay person in a committed relationship that all gay people are promiscuous. Certainly there is evidence that there are a lot who are (scientific research), but that label does not apply to everyone, yet I am constantly told that my faith is blind, I am one of the sheep, etc.

And I am not unique in that.

To what Aeschylus said 2 posts up.

Oops, make that 4 posts up, this thread is moving fast.....

If that's what you do, then there's no issue, at least as far as I'm concerned And quite honestly, what you do in your home and how you raise your kids is your own business. Whether I agree or disagree shouldn't impact that either way.

And to make some more generalities, children are impressionable, and typically believe what they're taught. Hence, teaching them about the Jesus story or God or fill-in-the-blank-religion isn't really giving them a choice, but instead presenting it as fact (which last time I checked hasn't been proven to anything other than a myth).

How many religious parents give their children the option of whether or not to go to church/communion/services? The ones I know have always made it mandatory.

I did not grow up in a religious house. I am saying that they are the same type of indoctrination, though. Just as a religious kid may feel guilt about doubting his faith once out in the world, a vegan kid could feel incredible guilt at the torture the chicken went through and how that disrupts the universal harmony, etc. etc. once he finally gets a chicken friend steak.

I can't quote verses, I don't go to church regularly, I dislike much of organized religion and for many of the same reasons as those posting here. But that is a far cry from the idea that a thinking, intelligent person can't come to a theistic perspective based on the evidence.

And all of that is a "knock" against the people in religious groups, and not religion, itself. Most of the history that is filled with murder, etc. has to do with the power the church had. If you wanted to ascend to power, you because a priest. Today you become a politician. I think the bulk of people in power of the church in the past didn't believe anything, they were in it for the power. And they started some nasty stuff, some of which persists today. But that is the people, and not the religion.

Wouldn't the opposite be true as well, then? And why would that be any different? Other than it is what would be preferred by someone who is not religious?


Too much time here, not enough playing poker. Later.

A couple points. First, I agree with you that brainwashing is wrong.

You are assuming that she has no intelligence and won't question things on her own. In this day and age, it would be truly shocking if she wasn't exposed to friends and information totally questioning her Christian faith and steering her towards the opposite extreme (probably people in her church), and forcing her to think on her own. Even without outside influences, I believe that she would question things and seek God on her own terms. I think that young children are smarter then we give them credit for.

Is it brainwashing if it is true? Would you protest an athiest couple teaching their children that there is no God? If you lived in the alaskan wilderness, you would teach your children the dangers of exposure and grizzly bears. Finding god is even more important.

Also, if you want to encourage intelligent debate, you may want to rethink your tone. Reread your post. They are simply teaching their child the most important truth they know. You would think we should put the most effort and vigor into teaching the most important things.