I'm not following you here. Could you list some specifics and how they have helped shape your beliefs?

Artman, I appreciate your attempts to pin me down to a system of beliefs, but I don't think my mind works that way. I don't need a rigidly structured faith in a specific "answer" to describe my world view. I guess you could say merely that I truly value my life, and I value the lives of those around me, and I value that I can ponder the big questions without saying, "I believe this and that's it."

I could refer you to the books in my original post for specifics...If you want me to list something like Darwinism, for example, and the way it has shaped my view of human evolution from the smallest organisms, I could do that. Or I could reiterate how I believe the Bible, Torah, and Koran--in their most basic tenets--embrace intolerance, inhumanity, and atrocity and are therefore evil. But that's been covered earlier in the thread. As I said, I believe the onus falls to the person of faith to provide evidential support for his fantasies, not to the person who doesn't happen to entertain those fantasies.

I have a question for you, if you don't mind: Did your parents raise you in the Christian faith, or did you come by it later in life? Did you grow up with no particular indoctrination and, in adulthood, deem Christianity to make the most sense among all the world's faiths?

I'm underwhelmed by that statement, frankly. Sure, Christian men and women have made certain accomplishments. But I can only imagine how much further we might have evolved had we been unencumbered by all the negatives of Christianity along the way. Even considering just the notion of "sin"...imagine if that wasn't a component of our culture, how much more tolerant we would be and how much further along toward true enlightenment.

Yes, Christian men and women have accomplished a lot, but not because they're Christians. The achievements--especially scientific achievements--have little or nothing to do with their faith.

Tell that to the Greeks and the Romans. All they did was ... umm ... build and establish the "western mindset." And hmm, Rome seemed to be getting along just fine before Christianity. Then what happened?

This is total bullshit propeganda that the Christian churches have conned their sheep into believing. Western civilization is not built around Christian values. It is built on the foundation laid down by the systems of the Greeks and Romans, who had nothing of the sort. The western world got along just fine without Christianity. And take away the Christian church and you can erase a little party we refer to as the Dark Ages. Where might western civilization be without that?

Don't believe everything your preacher and right-wing, bible-thumping politician tells you. Open your mind and try to let a little light in.

And more often than not, they come in spite of faith. Just ask Galileo.

I would say just the opposite, that the western mindset has greatly inspired Christianity and the direction it's gone in the last 2000 years.

Wow what a trainwreck. I'll gladly stick to my "myths" if it means not belittling people who have different beliefs than me.

Thank you for adding something of substance to the discussion. Oh, wait ....

I plead guilty to jumping straight to the end of the thread. I'm at work and don't have time to properly read and respond, I look forward to returning at a later time, hopefully tonight.

And referring to the religious as ignorant sheep adds something other than hate to the discussion?

If someone comes in and says just that, then no (has anyone done this?). It adds nothing. If it's said in the context of actual discussion, then yes.

Coming in here and saying basically nothing, addressing none of the points being discussed, is just wasting everyone's time. I'll wager you couldn't even be bothered to read the entire thread. Because your post certainy doesn't appear to have any bearing on the discussions taking place.

Join the discussion and OFFER SOMETHING if you're going to post. Otherwise, there's no point.

In other words, it's ok if you rag on the religious but vice versa is unacceptable. I don't really care, I only came into the thread to see if the books were a worthy read, but unfortunately the usual smugness will prevent me from checking it out.

I think you'd be missing out by doing that.

And reacting that way just because you think someone is smug isn't very productive.

Personally, I believe that the Bible is largely literal, yet despise most organized religion, and most of Christianity. I think being a Christian is letting God find you on a personal level, but religion (even most of "Christianity") is the opposite, man trying to work their way to God.

Being well read in all views is important, and vital if we are going to bring people closer to what we believe/know to be the truth.

Being defensive and making snippy comments is not going to help anyone.

The "athiests" in this thread are intelligent, and have been articulate and mainly even-handed in their posts. It's nice to see a thread like this not devolve into name-calling and non-thinking.

This really bothers me. Personally, I'm not trying to be smug but rather to plainly state my opinion, which has been fueled by the books in the original post. It seems that when confronted with any kind of debate that conflicts with longheld beliefs--no matter how even-handed and rational the tone--the religious immediately dismiss the debate as not worth having and dismiss the debaters as "smug" or "elitist," usually accompanied by a laughing icon of some kind.

No, I think it has much more to do with being called close-minded sheep. That's not debate. That's just childish.

I have no stake here one way or the other, but the athiests on this thread are definitely coming across as childish and smug.

No name-calling? Are we reading the same thread?

Here's a hint: "Baaaa!"

BTW, he's absolutely right. Although to be more specific, we owe much of what we have achieved to the Catholic Church, rather than just Christianity in general.

Many medieval scholars would say that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Pot, meet kettle. It's very obvious that your mind is very closed indeed when it comes to this subject.

that was a different time for the Church. Their dogma was based on Greek science and they refused to change because they were afraid that it would be bad for business. I think St. Peter's Basilica was undergoing a big renovation or expansion around that time and the Church needed all the money from indulgences it could get.

I think the other part was the supposed infallibility of the Pope.

The Catholic Church became very wealthy and powerful due to the crusades and there was no reason to give up the power.

Yes, Shinobi. You of course make good points. It seems like I'm in the middle of one these threads every week so I'll bid this one goodbye rather than rehash old material.
Oh, Shinobi, the only time you're allowed to mention the Catholic Church is in reference to the Crusades, Inquisition, homophobia, and whatever else makes it the scourge of mankind.

Merry Christmas!

I'll repeat my question for Rock and Shinobi, just out of curiosity: Did your parents raise you in the Christian faith, or did you come by it later in life? Did you grow up with no particular indoctrination and, in adulthood, deem Christianity to make the most sense among all the world's faiths?

Don't forget the Holocaust (and anti-Semitism in general), the witch trials, the war on drugs, and country music.

But also please don't forget that Muslims think we're infidels and that if they die killing us they will be rewarded with an eternity filled with fresh virgins. At least that's what their text instructs. This thread was not meant to single out Christianity, really, but rather all myth-based, man-created religion.

Oh, oops, you've dismissed the debate.

I'll bite, even though I said I wouldn't . I was raised Catholic but never really paid attention in church or listed to any of it. I considered myself agnostic for a few years, then when I went to college I had a religious studies class and I had to read all of the major texts. After awhile, the Bible started to grow on me and I rediscovered church and here I am.

Yeah, damn that devout Catholic, Adolf Hitler.