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"Proper" scientifiction is preferable to Star Wars / franchised mush [DISCUSS]

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Old 01-06-06, 02:44 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by mgbfan
Straw man. I haven't knocked anyone. All I've knocked is a series of books.

For whatever reason, a few people have chosen to read my criticism of the BOOKS as personal attacks. Criticising the quality of a book is not a personal attack (unless, perhaps, you're the author). Sorry, it's simply not.

Anyone is free to disagree with my opinions, but I think it's about time people stop claiming that I've been bashing posters. It simply hasn't happened. I've bashed BOOKS, nothing else.
I didn't mean to imply that you were knocking anyone. My bad. When I said "anyone" I meant anyone, not to imply you at all. I actually think you and I are pretty similar in our thoughts on this whole issue anyway.
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Old 01-06-06, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mgbfan
I'm going to have to stick on this one. Skilled novelists don't write about the ideas of other people. They don't use other people's characters and other people's worlds. They build their own characters, their own worlds (again, this isn't anything unique to SF). Those who can, do. Those who can't write fanfic.
See this we will never agree upon. I'm in the middle of "It's Superman: A Novel" right now. Technically a franchise book, or at the very least a book that is using things created by someone else. However I think the book is fantastic. It's one of the richest books I've ever had the pleasure of reading with very intricate plot threads, interesting characters, and a great sense of the time it was set. It's more than just a book that has Superman in it, and I feel it's really saying something about the time and how would a person from another world with great powers really operate in this world.

I honestly think it's a great book period, not a great book from a franchise and certainly more than fanfic. The author (Tom De Haven) has his own original books, so by your definition he is skilled (or at least tried to be - can't speak on the quality of those books as I haven't read them yet) since he's created his own world, characters, and such -- but he was interested enough to try and craft a Superman story. Just because it features Superman should the book be looked down upon? I sincerely doubt this was a "payday" kind of project for De Haven.

Your argument is very similar to one Erik Larsen made not too long ago. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to start that Serenity Novelization I've been putting off .

BTW - I'm not taking offense to anything you're saying. What does it matter to me if you or anyone like or approve of the books, tv, movies, music, whatever I like? It doesn't as long as the stuff makes me happy. Think you would probably agree with that. It's an interesting discussion though, even if we'll probably never agree.

Last edited by boredsilly; 01-06-06 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 01-06-06, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by boredsilly
The author (Tom De Haven) has his own original books, so by your definition he is skilled
Well, not really. That would be the converse of what I'm saying. I'm not saying that everyone and anyone who has written something original is skilled.

Originally Posted by boredsilly
BTW - I'm not taking offense to anything you're saying. What does it matter to me if you or anyone like or approve of the books, tv, movies, music, whatever I like? It doesn't as long as the stuff makes me happy. Think you would probably agree with that. It's an interesting discussion though, even if we'll probably never agree.
Yup - and I appreciate those of you who are able to discuss it without getting personal. It's a good discussion to have, but those who feel personally attacked when a book they like is criticized really shouldn't be taking part.

Personally, I'll never be able to respect an author who piggybacks on the creation of someone else. In my opinion, there can never be the same passion and the connection to the characters when they're not your own. In my opinion, an author's characters should be a very personal thing, something that comes out of the author's self. Writing about characters that came from someone else just is never going to have the same passion and intimacy.
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Old 01-06-06, 06:47 PM
  #29  
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http://www.sfwriter.com/darkside.htm

Robert J. Sawyer wrote the following article more than a decade ago....
Any year that sees new books by such brilliant writers as William F. Wu, Timothy Zahn, K. W. Jeter, Roger MacBride Allen, and Garfield and Judith Reeves-Stevens should be noteworthy. Add to that the long-awaited first collaborative novel by Kristine Kathryn Rusch and Dean Wesley Smith, and 1993 should have been an auspicious year indeed.

(Wu, of course, is known for his wonderful short stories, including "Wong's Curiosity Emporium." Zahn's "Cascade Point" won the 1984 best-novella Hugo. K.W. Jeter's Dr. Adder (1984) was an outstanding early cyberpunk work. Roger MacBride Allen's The Ring of Charon (1991) was one of the most inventive hard-SF novels in many a year. Gar Reeves-Stevens gave us Nighteyes (1989), Dark Matter (1990), and several other excellent mainstream SF novels. And multiple-award-nominee Rusch and her husband Smith are the energetic team responsible for the Pulphouse Publishing empire.)

Yes, a distinguished group of authors indeed — and yet not one of their 1993 books made even the preliminary Nebula Award ballot, let alone the list of five finalists.

The reason becomes clear when we mention their 1993 titles: Wu's contributions were Isaac Asimov's Robots in Time #1, #2, and #3, plus Mutant Chronicles Volume 1: In Lunacy (based on material from Target Games). Zahn weighed in with a couple of Star Wars novels. Allen gave us Isaac Asimov's Caliban. The Reeves-Stevenses wrote The Day of Descent, first in a series of books based on the TV show Alien Nation; Jeter's book was also in that series. And Rusch and Smith served up a frothy Star Trek: Deep Space Nine novel called The Big Game.

SF used to be about exploring strange, new worlds. But 1993 was the year in which it seemed to give up the good fight, and finally admit that it had become devoted to exploiting tired, old worlds instead.

The phenomenon of SF being "product" instead of literature began with Star Trek novels. When these first started appearing, authors used words like "homage" and "nostalgia" to describe their motives for doing them. But in 1993, that pretense was finally dropped: Pocket announced a forthcoming line of books based on Voyager, a new Star Trek TV series that will hit the airwaves in 1995. No one outside of the Paramount studios knew the premise of the show, no one had seen even a single frame of it on film, no one could possibly have any sentimental attachment to the material. But the feeding frenzy of authors on GEnie (the computer network on which SFWA has its electronic home) clambering to sign contracts to do books based on that series was a sight to behold.

I don't (much) blame the writers, of course. We've all got to eat. No, the publishers are the culprits here. They pay less in real dollars now than they ever have before for original SF novels — and they often keep those novels in print for only months, or even weeks.

Not that publishers can't get behind books when they want to: Pocket mounted a campaign in 1993 to get the first Alien Nation novel onto the Nebula ballot, sending out copies to SFWA members in hopes of getting Nebula recommendations. But how does one assess a volume whose characters, premises, and backgrounds were created by other writers working in other media? For that matter, how does one assess the contributions of writers to books that have a possessive form of Isaac Asimov's name as part of the title?

I'd love to say that 1993 was an aberration. But it wasn't: 1994 and future years are shaping up to be more of the same. See, in 1993, Roger MacBride Allen signed a contract to produce a trilogy of Star Wars novels, and another couple of books about Asimov's robots. More power to him — but I'd rather have the rest of his saga of "The Hunted Earth," the ground-breaking original series he began with Ring of Charon. Also in 1993, Kevin J. Anderson signed to do a trilogy of Star Wars novels. Good work if you can get it, I suppose — but I'd much rather see another mini-masterpiece from him, like this year's Nebula-nominated Assemblers of Infinity, which he co-authored with Doug Beason. Dave Wolverton, one of our absolute best authors, has signed on to do a Star Wars trilogy, too, while Barry B. Longyear, whose "Enemy Mine" landed him both a Hugo and a Nebula in 1980, has re-appeared on bookstore shelves with an Alien Nation book.

The SF author I feel sorriest for is John E. Stith. He was a Nebula nominee for 1990's brilliant Redshift Rendezvous, and he had an even better novel in 1993 called Manhattan Transfer. But that book didn't make it to either the Nebula or Hugo ballot — and I think I know why. Many bookstores have taken to treating the terms Star Trek and Star Wars as authors' names. Stith's work was no doubt lost in the alphabetical limbo after row upon row of media tie-in books.

Indeed, it's getting hard to find any original SF on shelves groaning under the weight of Star Trek, Star Wars, seaQuest, and Quantum Leap novels; of products licensed by Target Games and TSR; of books in the universes of Isaac Asimov, Ray Bradbury, Arthur C. Clarke, Anne McCaffrey, and Larry Niven; of false collaborations between big-name authors and newcomers; of sharecropping, franchise fiction, and packaged books. It used to be that such fare was the province of hack writers, those who needed a quick buck, and Trekkies who got lucky. Now, though, it's where many of the best and brightest of our younger writers are spending most of their time.

Pocket Books failed in its bid to get an Alien Nation novel on the Nebula ballot — but, if things continue, it's inevitable that someday, all too soon, the Nebula Award will be won by a media or gaming tie-in product. The year in which that happens will be the year in which SF literature will be said to have truly died — but when literary historians look back, they'll mark 1993 as the year in which the field's condition became terminal.
....I thought it might be of some interest.
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Old 01-06-06, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by boredsilly
See this we will never agree upon. I'm in the middle of "It's Superman: A Novel" right now. Technically a franchise book, or at the very least a book that is using things created by someone else.
Hmm...Branching out a bit, but this could be said for virtually the entire comics industry. Bob Kane and Siegel and Schuster no longer write Batman or Superman, and quite a few comic strips are written/drawn by children/family members of the original creator. I'm not trying to equate 1984 with Family Circus, but the idea that 'you can't write a good story in someone else's universe' is a little too strict.
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Old 01-06-06, 10:17 PM
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No offense, but I'm not sure comics are the best defense in this particular argument. I'd say the audience for comic books is pretty close to the audience for Star Wars novels.
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Old 01-06-06, 11:02 PM
  #32  
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Watchmen?
Preacher?
Sandman?
Or are you judging from the Sunday funnies, most ofwhich I'll admit aren't that great.

Saying 'comics are for dummies or neophytes or wannabes [or whatever term you want to use]' is just as bad as these people "It's like people who used to say all science fiction was crap - just because it was science fiction."
Again, certainly there is some dreck. But there are some superior titles, and excellent stories that may appear in a not-superior title.
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Old 01-06-06, 11:30 PM
  #33  
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I've read Ender's Game and enjoyed it. I've read all the Star Wars books and enjoyed most of them too.

So how could I like Ender's Game if I'm such a poor judge of sci-fi quality?
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Old 01-07-06, 12:05 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by dtcarson
Saying 'comics are for dummies or neophytes or wannabes [or whatever term you want to use]'
I said nothing of the sort.

But comic books are primarily for a particular demographic. I'm merely pointing out that it may be a similar demographic as Star Wars novels - namely, younger, less experienced readers.

Let's not turn this into a comic book thread. There are more than enough of those in this forum already.
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Old 01-07-06, 12:10 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Draven
I've read Ender's Game and enjoyed it. I've read all the Star Wars books and enjoyed most of them too.
Ironically, I actually listed Ender's Game first on my list because it's so accessable to less experienced readers. I thought it an easy bridge from Star Wars-type churn-um-out series to the world of literate science fiction.

You liked Ender's Game. You liked Star Wars. I actually anticipated that. The reason Ender's Game was first on my list isn't because it's the best, or even a top-5 science fiction novel. The reason it was number 1 is because it's something someone who is used to Star Wars novels would be comfortable with.

Originally Posted by Draven
So how could I like Ender's Game if I'm such a poor judge of sci-fi quality?
Fallacy.

My father in law likes beer. He drinks the cheapest American-made light beer he can find. He does not have a refined taste in beer. That doesn't mean that when he's here and has a good one, he's going to dislike it. He likes most beers, because he likes beer. But that doesn't mean he has discerning taste, now does it?
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Old 01-07-06, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by mgbfan
Ironically, I actually listed Ender's Game first on my list because it's so accessable to less experienced readers. I thought it an easy bridge from Star Wars-type churn-um-out series to the world of literate science fiction.

You liked Ender's Game. You liked Star Wars. I actually anticipated that. The reason Ender's Game was first on my list isn't because it's the best, or even a top-5 science fiction novel. The reason it was number 1 is because it's something someone who is used to Star Wars novels would be comfortable with.
Wow, you are sneaky! I can't wrap my feeble brain around your machinations. I better go read some Star Wars books to give it a rest.

Fallacy.

My father in law likes beer. He drinks the cheapest American-made light beer he can find. He does not have a refined taste in beer. That doesn't mean that when he's here and has a good one, he's going to dislike it. He likes most beers, because he likes beer. But that doesn't mean he has discerning taste, now does it?
So he can't tell the difference between good beer and cheap beer? Because just because he likes a cheap beer, that doesn't mean he does not have a refined taste in beer. It just means...wait for it...HE LIKES CHEAP BEER.

I can appreciate a high-art film and a stupid comedy. I can appreciate a great hamburger or top-quality prime rib. I can appreciate an expensive sports car or a zippy little compact. Is the world of good sci-fi literature really so...small for you?

Back to your beer-drinking father-in-law, if he went around saying the cheapest beer he could find was the best beer in the world, I'd agree with you. No one is saying that the Star Wars books are the best books in the world. But that doesn't mean that people who enjoy the books are any less refined than...well, you.

You might think you are only criticizing the books, but you're coming across as a condescending elitist. No point in arguing, that's a fact. And furthermore, I don't need you to tell me what good sci-fi is. I've been reading books in some form or another for nearly 30 years - it's not like I'm missing something that you magically "get". I'm not going to walk into my book closet and think "man, why have I been enjoying this crap all these years? I should be boring myself to tears with DUNE while sipping congac on the terrace!"

Whatever.
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Old 01-07-06, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by mgbfan
I said nothing of the sort.

But comic books are primarily for a particular demographic. I'm merely pointing out that it may be a similar demographic as Star Wars novels - namely, younger, less experienced readers.
That's exactly what you said, at least the neophyte or wannabe part. Comic books are for 'less experienced' readers. Those poor children or children-at-mind, who aren't reading the 'right' things, they're just reading silly little Star Wars novels or comic books [again, just like other things, there's levels within that medium as well.
And I agree with Draven, you may not be attacking people [which is good,], but you do come off like a condescending elitist.
And like I said, by implying all comic books are for 'younger, less experienced' readers, you've just shown yourself as hypocritical as those 'educated readers' who denigrate sci-fi as a whole genre.

I went to Wendy's the other day for lunch, where would be an acceptable place for me to 'bridge' to the world of 'good' food, since I'm obviously a less experienced eater as well?
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Old 01-07-06, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by dtcarson
I went to Wendy's the other day for lunch
A #1 biggie sized with a coke and a order of nuggets is a slice of heaven.

Originally Posted by mgbfan
No offense, but I'm not sure comics are the best defense in this particular argument. I'd say the audience for comic books is pretty close to the audience for Star Wars novels.
I get what you're trying to say here, but your wording is no good. I think you probably meant the audience for superhero comic books is pretty close to the audience for Star Wars. That makes more sense. And by the way your demographic breakdown probably isn't accurate any more either. Comics used to be for young inexperienced readers (a gateway to reading), now its more for adults who are looking for escapism IMHO.

Actually the same argument you're making here people make about comics. You will often see "Stop reading the tights (superheros) and give some real comics (usually meaning indie/creator owned stuff) a try". So this kind of talk happens everywhere in everything. In Hip-Hop discussions "Stop listening to that 50 cent and listen to some real hip-hop. KRS and Rakim", scifi tv discussions "SG-1 is ok, but check Babylon 5 and Farscape for some real scifi", movies, wine, cigars, anything. I guess it comes down to tastes and what you appreciate or are looking for in any given medium.

And I did go read a synopsis of The Sparrow at amazon because I am open to trying new stuff, but it sounded deadly boring to me. The book could be great, but I don't know you well enough to read a book on your suggestion alone and something has to jump out at me to give books a try. I didn't just write it off though.
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Old 01-07-06, 01:25 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by mgbfan
Ironically, I actually listed Ender's Game first on my list because it's so accessable to less experienced readers. I thought it an easy bridge from Star Wars-type churn-um-out series to the world of literate science fiction.

You liked Ender's Game. You liked Star Wars. I actually anticipated that. The reason Ender's Game was first on my list isn't because it's the best, or even a top-5 science fiction novel. The reason it was number 1 is because it's something someone who is used to Star Wars novels would be comfortable with.


you have an answer for everything don't you?

Originally Posted by Draven
You might think you are only criticizing the books, but you're coming across as a condescending elitist. No point in arguing, that's a fact. And furthermore, I don't need you to tell me what good sci-fi is. I've been reading books in some form or another for nearly 30 years - it's not like I'm missing something that you magically "get".
I was going to respond earlier, but sometimes it is just best to wait for someone else. You put it more eloquently than I would have. Well said.
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Old 01-08-06, 12:13 AM
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I've been holding off, but I want to get my two cents in.

Spin it however you want, but add me as another to the list of those who say that you come off as an elitist. This mentality has always gotten on my nerves. The point you make is that reading Star Wars novels is a waste of time and suck except for young kids who can't grasp "real sci fi". In all reality, what you preach is no better than what you are complaining about. Are Star Wars novels not for you? Thats fine. But you are so stick in that elitist mentality, you are missing out on tons of great entertaining novels because you only let yourself read high brow crap. That is limiting yourself just as much as all those people who aren't getting "real sci-fi"

In regards to your crack on Enders Game, great spin. Most sci fi readers, elitists and not, feel that Enders Game is one of the best sci-fi novels ever written. The sequals and spin offs not to much, but trying to say that Ender's Game is only good for those coming off of lowly books like Star Wars is dumb. Even many of the most hardcore sci-fi fans out there love Ender's Game.

The fact is this. You have a right to read whatever the hell you want. If you want to spend all your time reading only the "very best" sci fi, then feel free. Nobody is attacking you for that. But maybe you should respect the fact that many people out there like more entertaining fiction as well, things like Star Wars, Star Trek, popular fiction (Tom Clancy, John Grisham etc..). THat doesn't make them any more dumb or any less of a well read person than yourself. But I'm sure you'll come up with some lame comeback and trash my post completely, because elitists like yourself get some sort of rise out of flaunting your arrogance.
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Old 01-08-06, 01:44 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Draven
So he can't tell the difference between good beer and cheap beer? Because just because he likes a cheap beer, that doesn't mean he does not have a refined taste in beer.
Well, "refined" is another word entirely, with a whole different set of connotations. What I said is that he doesn't have a discerning taste in beer, and merely to point out the fallacy in your argument.

Originally Posted by Draven
I can appreciate a high-art film and a stupid comedy. I can appreciate a great hamburger or top-quality prime rib. I can appreciate an expensive sports car or a zippy little compact. Is the world of good sci-fi literature really so...small for you?
I think more in terms of good literature, not merely good SF literature. But I suppose that is a reasonable subgrouping. So yes, it is small enough that Star Wars franchise-type, churn-um-out, cookie-cutter novels aren't in the grouping. Apparently this is a personal affront to some.

Originally Posted by Draven
But that doesn't mean that people who enjoy the books are any less refined than...well, you.
I have never said a word about whether a PERSON is refined (in fact, I don't believe I ever used the word at all). My comments is about BOOKS, not PEOPLE. Why are you not grasping this?

Originally Posted by Draven
You might think you are only criticizing the books, but you're coming across as a condescending elitist.
And yet, I've yet to call anyone a name. Can you say the same?

Originally Posted by Draven
Whatever.
Isn't it cute when a guy is so confident in his argument that he feels the need to pat himself on the back at the end of the post?

Dude, you're clearly taking my distaste for Star Wars tripe as a personal insult. This suggests more about your personality than it does about mine. If you criticize something that I like, I can assure you I won't take it personally and start launching personal attacks and spats of namecalling.

In short, get a grip.

Last edited by mgbfan; 01-08-06 at 02:08 AM.
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Old 01-08-06, 01:48 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by dtcarson
That's exactly what you said, at least the neophyte or wannabe part. Comic books are for 'less experienced' readers.
Argue it if you must, but comic books (and Star Wars novels - why has this become a comic book thread?) are not created for the older, more well-read audience. It's not an insult to comic book fans. It's a simple fact of demographics. Stomp your feet and yell at the top of your lungs, if you want. Doesn't change the simple fact.

Are there some well-read folks who like comic books? Oh, I'm certain there are. But don't fool yourself for a minute about their demographic. And as I've said, there's nothing wrong with that.

There seem to be some real hypersensitivity issues here.
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Old 01-08-06, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Michael Corvin
you have an answer for everything don't you?
If the question is: Do you say everything you say for a reason and are you able to articulate that reason if asked?

Then the answer is: Yes.
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Old 01-08-06, 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by krazydawg005
But you are so stick in that elitist mentality, you are missing out on tons of great entertaining novels because you only let yourself read high brow crap.
Let's be frank here. Someone who is taking part in a discussion about science fiction at all shouldn't be characterized as someone who reads only "high brow crap."

I've got an open mind. I've tried the Star Wars novels. Have you tried "high brow crap?"

Originally Posted by krazydawg005
That is limiting yourself just as much as all those people who aren't getting "real sci-fi"
How so? I've tried it, as I've stated here multiple times. I found it to be formulaic tripe, penned by hacks. But I did try it. So where am I closed-minded? If I'd never tried it and refused to look at it, that would be closed-minded. This is just formulating an opinion based on available evidence. And the evidence I've seen has left the rather easy conclusion: the stuff is crap and the writers are hacks.

But I tried it, so I'm not sure where you get "limiting" from. All I'm "limiting" myself from is fiction that I consider to be cliched, forumualic, poorly written tripe. And yes ... I guess I would choose to "limit' myself from genuinely bad fiction. Call me crazy.

Originally Posted by krazydawg005
In regards to your crack on Enders Game, great spin. Most sci fi readers, elitists and not, feel that Enders Game is one of the best sci-fi novels ever written.
Pardon me, but did I make a "crack" about Ender's Game? I feel it's a great novel. That's why it was on my list. But it's also written in a simple, straightforward manner, which is another reason it was on the list. It's a great novel that's easily accessable. What is so confusing about this?

Originally Posted by krazydawg005
The sequals and spin offs not to much,
Speaker for the Dead is widely regarded as equaling, if not surpassing, the original (personally, I find it to be the best of the four, but that's a matter for another thread). The third and fourth fell off, though.

Originally Posted by krazydawg005
but trying to say that Ender's Game is only good for those coming off of lowly books like Star Wars is dumb.
Then it's a good thing I never said that. Remove the word "only" from the above statement and you'll be fine.

Originally Posted by krazydawg005
Even many of the most hardcore sci-fi fans out there love Ender's Game.
As do I, which is why I recommended it. Seriously, man. These other guys are getting hopping mad, but at least they're following things. Do try to keep up.

Originally Posted by krazydawg005
The fact is this. You have a right to read whatever the hell you want.
I don't believe anyone has challenged that. But this IS a book forum, and we DO discuss books. And in doing so, sometimes we speak out against books. Or would you prefer the Puppies and Bunnies and Everything is Good Book Forum?

It's a book forum. I'm talking about books. So get your panties out of a bundle and man up. Join the discussion or don't, but don't tell anyone not to have it.

Originally Posted by krazydawg005
many people out there like more entertaining fiction as well, things like Star Wars, Star Trek,
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Old 01-08-06, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by mgbfan
Well, "refined" is another word entirely, with a whole different set of connotations. What I said is that he doesn't have a discerning taste in beer, and merely to point out the fallacy in your argument.
From dictionary.com:

Main Entry: refined
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: cultured
Synonyms: aesthetic, civil, civilized, classy, courteous, courtly, cultivated, delicate, discerning, discriminating, elegant, enlightened, exact, fastidious, fine, finespun, genteel, gentlemanly, gracious, hairsplitting, high-brow, high-minded, ladylike, nice, plush, polished, polite, posh, precise, punctilious, restrained, ritzy, sensitive, snazzy, sophisticated, spiffy, suave, sublime, subtle, swanky, tasteful, urbane, well-bred, well-mannered

I think more in terms of good literature, not merely good SF literature. But I suppose that is a reasonable subgrouping. So yes, it is small enough that Star Wars franchise-type, churn-um-out, cookie-cutter novels aren't in the grouping. Apparently this is a personal affront to some.
Who is taking this personally? Your opinion doesn't affect me.

I have never said a word about whether a PERSON is refined (in fact, I don't believe I ever used the word at all). My comments is about BOOKS, not PEOPLE. Why are you not grasping this?
Because you are saying that these books are crap and that those that like them don't know what good sci fi is. How are you not grasping that?

Here are some of your choicer comments:

I honestly think that a lot of people don't know any better.
Become a fan of good fiction. You don't have to be ashamed of that.
Then you've never read good science fiction.
Can you really not see how that kind of stuff comes across as condescending?

And yet, I've yet to call anyone a name. Can you say the same?
Sure I can - I never called you a name.

Isn't it cute when a guy is so confident in his argument that he feels the need to pat himself on the back at the end of the post?
I put that there so you'd realize that I DON'T take this seriously.

Dude, you're clearly taking my distaste for Star Wars tripe as a personal insult. This suggests more about your personality than it does about mine. If you criticize something that I like, I can assure you I won't take it personally and start launching personal attacks and spats of namecalling.

In short, get a grip.
Why, because I wrote a post about it on DVDTalk? I write out posts about a lot of things...doesn't mean I take them all seriously. Your opinion of what I read means absolutely nothing to me.

Also, if you think I've personally attacked you or called you names, there's a button to report that. Feel free to use it.
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Old 01-08-06, 09:51 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Draven
From dictionary.com:

Main Entry: refined
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: cultured
Synonyms: aesthetic, civil, civilized, classy, courteous, courtly, cultivated, delicate, discerning, discriminating, elegant, enlightened, exact, fastidious, fine, finespun, genteel, gentlemanly, gracious, hairsplitting, high-brow, high-minded, ladylike, nice, plush, polished, polite, posh, precise, punctilious, restrained, ritzy, sensitive, snazzy, sophisticated, spiffy, suave, sublime, subtle, swanky, tasteful, urbane, well-bred, well-mannered
I'm assuming that you're not implying that symonyms listed in a thesarus all have the same meaning, right? I mean, you don't honestly believe that "discerning" and, say, "subtle" mean the same thing, right? And surely you don't believe that "discerning" and "snazzy" or "well-bred" mean the same thing, right?

Since I know you couldn't be implying that, I'm not sure that I understand the point of this.

Originally Posted by Draven
Your opinion of what I read means absolutely nothing to me.
Umm hmm. Clearly.
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Old 01-08-06, 11:29 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by mgbfan
Argue it if you must, but comic books (and Star Wars novels - why has this become a comic book thread?) are not created for the older, more well-read audience. Doesn't change the simple fact.


Watchmen. House of Secrets. Love and Rockets. Lost in Paradise. The Dark Knight Returns. Bone. Spirit. Cerebus. Maus. Astro City. Transmetropolitan. Concrete. Elementals. Preacher. League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

Countless others.

And you're wondering why anyone would dare call you elitist?

So ditto to most everything dtcarson has mentioned thus far.
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Old 01-08-06, 11:30 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by mgbfan
Since I know you couldn't be implying that, I'm not sure that I understand the point of this.
Also from dictionary.com

syn·o·nym
A word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another word or other words in a language.

See the point now?

Umm hmm. Clearly.
You got it.
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Old 01-08-06, 11:34 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Draven
Also from dictionary.com

syn·o·nym
A word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another word or other words in a language.

See the point now?
No. Unless you genuinley don't know that synonyms are words with somewhat similar, but not identical, meanings. Unless, of course, you're willing to concede that "discerning" and "subtle" mean exactly the same thing. In which case, this becomes a different discussion.
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Old 01-08-06, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by TimeandTide
And you're wondering why anyone would dare call you elitist?
Fine. Star Wars novels are indeed written for highly literate adults. They're are wonderfully original examples of literature, not at all formulaic, and come with the full depth and passion of the other novels mentioned in this thread. They're bright and shining examples of all that is right with commercialism and franchise rights, and not at all targedted to fanboys, but to the general reading population, where they stand tall on their own merits. Further, original works of art are vastly overrated when compared to the vitality and power of pre-processed franchise books.

Long live Star Wars novels! Long live the complete non-hacks who write them!
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