Ok, I'm on vol 3 right now -- "Church and State" part one. I've heard different things about the series in general. Some folks recommend the whole set, but I've heard other people who were pretty adamant about stopping after Church and State.

Is there a general decline in quality (perceived or otherwise) or does it drop off sharply after vol 4?

Just curious since they've definitely been worth the $$$ so far for the amount of material, but I don't have $$$ to blow randomly either.

thanks.

Not a fan, but I love the art & lettering.

Are they still churning out original issues..?

The final issue comes out soon (within a couple of months) -- or already has.

I've read all the way through book 7 ("Flight"). I'm not sure if there's a decline in quality after "Church & State". However, there is a definite change in the focus and tone of the book. Some people love the changes, while other hate it. I'd recommend reading through book 5, and then deciding whther or not you want to continue from there.

"Jaka's Story" (Book 5) - Cerebus takes the background in this one. It's also the first book in the series to take a more serious tone, relying far less on the humor of previous efforts. It's slowly-paced, but a very focused piece of work. Those that enjoy the post-"Church & State" books tend to think that this is Sim's best work, and I agree with them.

"Melmoth" (Book 6) - Here's where Sim's lost more readers. You thought that there wasn't much Cerebus in "Jaka's Story"??? Just wait until you read "Melmoth", where Sim takes a major detour. Although there is some Cerebus in this book, it is mostly the story of Oscar Wilde's final days. (Wilde also appears in "Jaka's Story".) Being a fan of Wilde, I did enjoy this, but many readers will find it very frustrating. I'd also add that I found the art in this book to be the best yet.

"Flight", "Women", and "Reads" (Books 7 - 9) "Flight" was the last Cerebus book that I read, and that was years ago. Honestly, I don't remember much about it, but I do know that it was my least favorite. These books collect "Mothers & Daughters" storyline, which was quite controversial due to views expressed in the book that many felt were misogynist. (I cannot comment on this since I don't really remember "Flight", only took a brief glance through "Women", and never even took a look at "Reads". But I do know that many people, including some who had been close to Sim, found the book to be highly offensive.)

I've always meant to go back to collecting the Cerebus "phone books", but I've never gotten around to it. (Too many other things to waste my money on.) But seeing this thread did remind me once again how much I enjoyed most of the books I read, and I plan on revisiting them soon.

I'd be interested in hearing your thought is you do decide to go on to "Jaka's Story".

jim

I posted some comments in this thread:

http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthr...5&pagenumber=3

I ended up selling the books I had instead of getting back into it.

I'm also probably more sensitive to this than most, so I wouldn't necessarily let it put you off. It wasn't the exact same thing, but it was similar to my overall dislike of the movie Runaway Jury...the acting and cinematography were good, but the political bias was just so blatant to me (and so poorly justified) that it ripped me out of the movie constantly.

Tuan Jim...
Definitely check out Blade's comments in that thread. (I personally never had a problem with the ending of "Church & State". Then again, Blade describes himself as "fairly conservative" while I'm proud to be a bleeding heart liberal. So your political views may detrmine how much you enjoy it.)

Then check out the comments by Josh-da-man in the same thread, which talks more about Sim's misogyny, among other things. (Railing against homosexuals...MLK as a communist...and, worst of all, the possible influence of [gasp!] Ayn Rand!!! Perhaps I'm better off not reading the rest of the books!)

jim

Thanks for the comments Blade. A guy on a listserv I hang out on (Charles Williams discussion) said that everything up to Church and State was a "Must-have" and everything after was garbage, but I've seen different reviews elsewhere. ie. he'd recommend vol 1 and High Society but NOTHING after C&S.

i was also wondering about these. discount comic book service was offering all of the phone books ar 50% off so i took the plunge and ordered the first two to see how i would like them. i could've ordered all of them at that price but i didn't want to sink that much money into an unproven thing.

Link?

HS and C&S are definitely my 2 favorites, but I thought pretty much everybody liked Jaka's Story. I didn't like Melmoth that much, but the final issue is so incredibly good it almost makes up for the whole rest of the tpb. For some reason I don't remember Flight or Women that well, but I know I liked them.

The book started taking a serious decline with Reads. Half of Reads is Dave Sim's essays and regardless of how you feel about his subjects or opinions, I don't think the writing quality is as good as it should be.

I've found something to love in every single issue of Cerebus, but with either Melmoth or Reads, Cerebus went from being one of the greatest things I've ever read to merely good.

One more thing. If you're interested in Oscar Wilde, F. Scott Fitzgerald, or Hemingway, I would definitely recommend you keep reading Cerebus.

I've been holding out to the bitter end, with just 2-3 issues left to go, but it's been tough. I've been reading Cerebus on and off since 1984 or so, and I think the first 200 issues are mostly excellent material. But I'll agree, the last 100 issues have been very, very mixed. Some great stuff mixed in with far too much dogma, ranting and just plain bizarro-world philosophizing by Dave. I quite enjoy "Guys" (the novel right after "Mothers & Daughters") but "Rick's Story" is where he starts to go off the rails into the religious blather. Then it picks up again with the decent "Going Home," although for my money the ending of that novel is where Sim stopped caring about the characters and became more concerned with making a political point. The ending of that novel is very jarring and out of character, and leaves a sour taste. Everything after that point (#260? or so) has been treading water, more interminable religion and such cutting-edge topical satire as Woody Allen and The Three Stooges. The final 10 issues or so have shown some life but frankly I long ago lost track of the chronology and stopped caring (the story, far as I can tell, has shot decades ahead in the final 50 issues, and none of the characters from the original days - Jaka, Sophia, Elrod, etc.) have ever reappeared.

I wish he would've ended it at 200 now, it would've been a good ending point. If I didn't suffer from that damn fanboy completism I probably would've checked out 40-50 issues ago, but there you go...

I just keep hoping against hope he won't disappoint with 300, but at the rate it's going it's hard to imagine this ending on anything approaching the greatness Sim consistently managed in the best of the books -- "Church & State" through the first half of "Mothers & Daughters" to me.

I know not everyone loves "Melmoth," but I actually think it was a fine book. "Jaka's Story" probably is my favorite one overall though.

It's a shame about Cerebus, if you think about it -- if Dave hadn't gone so radically off the rails this last decade or so he would've gone down in history as one of comics' greatest creators. He still deserves a huge round of applause for the scope and breadth of his achievement, but as someone on The Comics Journal message board put it recently, it's a shame getting this far has apparently driven the man insane.

http://www.dcbservice.com/

i don't know if you can still get that 50% off price or not as the cutoff date was supposedly monday. try emailing them and i think they might be able to work something out.

Their website still shows the discount.

Edit: They don't carry the most recent volume (Latter Days). Neither does Amazon or B&N. Any decent deals anywhere?

thanks. I think I'll go ahead and get vol 4 but hold off on the others for the time being.

I have to disagree about Dave Sim not going down in history as one's of comics' greatest creators. I would go so far as to say that Dave Sim has been more consistently good than just about any other creator out there. The two biggest names that come to the top of my head are Frank Miller and Alan Moore. Has Dave Sim ever done anything as bad as Spawn/Batman, DK2, or a lot of Moore's Image work?

The biggest problem with Sim is that he just set too high a bar for himself with both quality and quantity. I have no problem with him making Cerebus 300 issues, but he should've taken a break. Instead of forcing Fitzgerald and Hemingway into Cerebus, he could have gone and done a miniseries about them. Doing 20 pages of writing and art every month for 25 years while at the same time making it relevant to his overall story is just too hard a task. And yet, imo, he never once turned out a bad comic.

I need to start reading these again. They rank right behind Sandman as my favorite comic series. (And right in front of Sim City, The Maxx, and Preacher.

A month back Neil Gaiman posted a link to a fascinating/depressing article about Sims and Cerebus in Saturday Night Magazine. You'll find the story about halfway down this page:

http://spiltink.dreamhost.com/blogs/...28042796095292

Wow, what an article. I haven't read a single issue of Cerebus, I've always wanted to but never seem to get around to it, but the idea of one man creating a 300 issue series boggles my mind. The story of Sim himself is fascinating and depressing, if you want to look at it that way. As much as I would like to think that everyone is entitled to their beliefs, it does seem that the monumental task that Sim set out for himself drove him insane.

Regardless of his personal beliefs and politics, I have to admire and salute the commitment of Sim to his work.

Thanks for posting the link to that article.

God, yes! Good portions of his run on Cerebus were nothing more than self-indulgent, barely coherent rantings. Quite frankly, even his best works (High Society and Church & State) are overly long and suffer pacing problems.

Sim is to be commended for his vision and the fact that he wrote, drew, and lettered a monthly comic book series on his own or with a single assistant for 300 issues. But, putting aside the David vs. Goliath factor, Cerebus is a C- series with flashes of B+.

Very interesting article. Spells out a lot of what I've heard rumored about Sim.

I gotta disagree with the previous poster -- Cerebus definitely achieved "A" status for me with much of the first 200 issues. There's few stories in comicdom as graceful, beautifully drawn and thought-provoking as "Jaka's Story" IMHO.

Right on the nail. 8 or 9 years ago, I realized I bought them, put them aside and never read them anymore. They were non-essential . Sorry Dave, but the world kept a-turning.

In fairness to Sim, I've only read the first 4 collections (Cerebus, High Society, and Church & State Parts 1 and 2), as well as isolated single issues here and there. So if Jaka's Story is really A work, then I wouldn't know. But I think High Society and Church & State had some interesting ideas, but were plagued by endless digressions and poor pacing (especially Church & State).

So you were passing judgement on the entire series before without having read more than half of it? Not that your take is entirely wrong (I think most Cerebus readers would agree the glory days ended circa #200 or so), but it seems a little off-base for you to give the entire series a grade of C- and not having read half of it? That's like giving the entire Lord Of The Rings saga a review having read just Fellowship Of The Ring, IMO.

My understanding was that High Society and Church and State are considered the best the series has to offer. If that's not the case, then I agree it's unfair of me to review it, but if those are the best Cerebus gets, then I've seen the best and think that it doesn't rise above B+.