Well, in the spirit of p1forest's suggestion, voila, new thread! But since we can't rename threads, I thought maybe we could continue here. For the record, this is the thread we were using.

So far, we've been primarily discussing Game of Thrones and Runelords.

I find that nothing turns me off faster with fantasy than a bad magic system. Now, what exactly do I consider to be a bad magic system? Well, I'm not really sure. But I know it when I see it.

For example, I was reading "Lord of the Isles" by David Drake and, while overall I enjoyed it, I didn't think the magic used was reasonable. I don't know how to describe it but Drake kept having one of his characters talking about how some wizards didn't know the powers they were tapping into. As a result, this gave him license to have all kinds of "fantastical" magical stuff happen. In other words, if the magic system is loose or ill-defined, it is too easy for authors to do whatever they want; almost like a cheat.

Kind of like this:

"...and then Boy-boy, reeling from Eviloids brutal and frenzied magical blows, was able to tap into the essence of Eviloid's prismatic crystal, shining malignantly from the top of his ebony staff. Never before, up until this critical time, as his life was quickly flowing away, had Boy-boy ever been able to meld his consciousness with a precious stone's essence. Instictively, as if he had been a Grand Master Stone Lord of the 10th Degree for decades, he knew how to channel the crystal's power.

With a desperate mighty effort, he was able to dislodge Eviloid's mind fusion with the crystal and tap into the crystal's essence himself. Drawing strength from the crystal, he was able to blast Eviloid into ashes.

Or so he thought, for Eviloid, knowing the battle was lost at the last possible moment, as he was at the very brink of victory and world domination, managed to teleport himself to an alternate plane, leaving only his clothing and equipment to be consumed by Boy-boy's righteous crystal-enhanced blast.

One day, thought Eviloid, I will return and destroy that wretched 18 year old farm-boy. Just because nine dozen of my highly skilled and motivated minions failed to kill him in the preceeding 500 pages does not mean I won't get him in the sequel for I am evil incarnate, an unstoppable, immortal, universal power. Ha-ha-ha-HA!!"



[Edited by Yrth on 05-18-01 at 07:55 AM]

I completely agree with how a bad magic system can ruin a story. For some odd reason it's like i can only suspend disbelief so far.

Dragons flying around no problem. Evil demons and sorcerers returning from the dead - sure why not. But if a spell is cast that needs a gesture or focus item or something and then later it miraculously doesn't it just seems like the author is cheating. I guess i just want some basic ground rules in my fantasy worlds

Yrth, first of all, my comment was kind of a tongue-in-check joke; the thread had started because the 3 of us were discussing Martin's stories before, and we all 'hijacked' our own thread to discuss other books. However, this new thread is good; only a few people chimed in on the other one, and this will draw in other to the discussion.

Now, back to your thoughts, I totally agree with the magic system comments. While I generally try to let it slide, it still bothers me when some aspects of a magical system seem illogical. Of course, I'll be the first to state that it's a funny statement, considering magic doesn't really exist...but you know what I mean.

Have you read L.E. Modesitt's Recluce books? It seems to me that he has put quite a bit of thought into his magic system. Subtle things that always bothered me are covered in his series.

[anal nitpicking] For example, in many systems, wizards/mages etc. can turn themselves invisible. However, I've always thought this if one is truly invisible, it would probably mean that all light rays pass or bend around an individual. If you think about it, this would mean no light reaches the person's eyes. Thus, they'd be blind. [/anal nitpicking]

I know, that's really nitpicking, but like I said, I generally let it slide, but still notice stuff like that. However, in Modesitt's series, one mage tries to make himself invisible by bending the light around himself. He suddenly can't see, and panicks. I was quite impressed he put that little detail in; it's the only time I've seen that. You might look into the series; I like it quite a bit, although the last few books have become repetitive.

If you want to read a particularly awful case of having no "magic system" at all, check out Rodger Zelazny's Amber books.

I don't know why, but I managed to read all 9 books, and he would change the rules from book to book. It got pretty lame towards the end, like he ran out of ideas.

I've read one of L.E. Modesitt's Recluce books and stopped for the simple reason that it was written in the first person so it looked like the story was being told through the characters view... that irritated me beyond anything else so I never bought any other of his books.

As for bad magic systems, I just don't like that in every series of books out there, magic is either gone or is disseapearing and it's always a select group of women who still have magic who stay in some tower or island castle and there are only a few men who have magic left and are usually under the power of the women, I never got that.

As for another failing magic system, Terry Brooks has a very nice example in his Shannara series where only 1 of the heros has magic while no one else does, but that most of the enemies they fight seem to have some sort of magic.

I've also read the first 2 books in David Drake's serie and didn't really like them, I don't remember much, but they were nothing special. But I do have to say that the serie by Tad Williams takes the cake for being pitiful, Memory, Thorns and Sorrow I think it's called... now there is one hell of a badly written serie for the simple reason that the hero is some mentally challenged 14 year old who acts like a 5-6 year old child. I mean jeeze, if you want us to read 4 books, at least put a hero in them that we can follow without hoping the bad guys kill him off because he has yet another tantrum in every other chapter. I thought I'd re-read the serie as it's been around 2 years since I had read it the first time, but I only got to around the 4th chapter in the first book and threw it aside.

On a ligher note, im going to pick up the 3rd David Farland book tonight, yay!

Feneant - I agree that a first-person perspective is not for everyone, and can be limiting. But if I recall correctly, Modesitt does switch the characters that the perspective comes from, although not nearly as often as Martin (every chapter). I a little surprise the perspective bothers you that much, if you like Martin. Or did you mean just Modesitt's style of presenting it?

I also have started the Drake series. I read the first book and though it was ok. Don't remember much from it though (not a good endorsement). I've picked up the second at a library give-away, but haven't felt motivated to read it.

I'm waiting for my "hold" copy of Farland's third book to become available from the library; I don't want to spend the money buying all the hardcovers I read. I probably won't see it for a week or too.

Martin does 1st person? I never noticed, but Modesitt it's all I could see, the constant use of "I" always jumped at me, it's the first thing I noticed.

Runelord book 3 is only 400 pages... yuk, I paid 40$ Cdn for it... I'm not satisfied, will post my remarks on Sunday, itll be finished by then.

I like the Shannara series. The first book is clearly a LoTR rip-off, but all the next books improve exponentially over the last. Ilse Witch (the latest one) is a good read.

More than just one hero has magic, you just have to look at it in context. The whole idea of these books is that the world swings from science to magic, and Shannara takes place mostly in a post-apocalyptic, slightly post magic stage. Terry Brooks goes into detail about this if you manage to make it through the later books. Fun stuff.

I now see the confusion. When you said 'first person' I thought you were loosely using the term, meaning from the character's perspective in general terms, like what Martin does. That each chapter is generally told from a character's perspective, but without using "I." There are roughly 10+ books, and I didn't recall any being in the strict first person "I" style. This is probably because I think only 2 (I just checked my collection quickly) are written that way. The first book The Magic of Recluce and it's sequel The Death of Chaos. Sorry for the confusion. Perhaps the other books in the series would be more to your liking.

Regarding the Runelords, please don't post any spoiler tags. Even though I haven't read the book yet, I know I won't be able to help myself and see what you wrote.

No, he doesn't do first person. What he does is present the story from different perspectives.

On Runelords, my problem with the Voice of Raj Ahten is not that he can charm people, it is that he can level buildings.

Because it's unreasonable, or too powerful?

BTW have you read all 3 or just the first 2? I'm interested in general impressions of the third book, but have haven't read it yet...so don't tell me anything important!

Yrth, what other books/authors would you recommend, in the vein of Martin?

I've found that Martin has upped my standards a bit and kind of ruined other authors for me!

I've actually only read the first one. And I object because it is too powerful.

As for fantasy recommendations, I hesitate to make any but, you might try John Marco's "Jackal of Nar." I really wanted to like this book as I guess it can be called "military" fantasy but it was not as good as I was hoping. If you read it, we can discuss it and we'll see if I was being too critical.

I've read the 3rd book today (Yeah, so I read it in 5 hours... so sue me), quite interesting and answers some questions, but it reminded me of Robert Jordan as to the way it's written and ends. I won't give a spoiler, but let's just say that this serie might go on a long time. Too bad no one has read it, I have quite a few questions that I'd like to discuss so get reading!

5 hours? Holy cr*p, Feneant. You said before you read fast, but wow. Do you find you miss stuff reading that fast? Is there anyway you can word your questions to not give too much away while making it clear to someone else (like me) what sections to pay attention to? I'll be getting the book within a couple of weeks.

Yeah, I do miss some when I read, but It's more a wanting to know what's going to happen so I keep reading and going faster and faster, but I usually only skip useless stuff and rarely miss something that's important. I won't even post my questions now since doesn't appear that anyone has read it yet.

So I switched from re-reading Terry Brooks to re-reading Robert Jordan and I have to say, if he wrote faster and every book was like the first, I'd have trouble putting them down... Eye of the World is so well written and it's a fantastic story, too bad now it takes him around 1.5 year per books and most of the new ones are less and less worth it.

To the point, I'm wondering, anyone know the release dates for the next books from Terry Goodkind (Sword of Truth serie), Robert Jordan (Wheel of Time), George R.R. Martin and David Farland (Runelords). I can hardly find any new books to read since no authors seem to be as good as those 4... I've also read everything from Eddings, Feist and Brooks, those listed being among the best. You guys have suggestions on new fantasy series I could start in the style of the ones listed?. I don't like the work from the guy who wrote the Fionavar tapestry serie so don't bother suggesting him.

Amazing. I could have written the above statement!

I totally agree. The Eye of the World is excellent. Also, as his series has progressed, I've found that the quality has seemed to decline, and my interest in them is waning a bit. I've read all the same books you mention, except the latest from Goodkind, Farland, and Feist although I'll have read all three within a few weeks.

One recent series I've read that I really enjoyed was The Farseer Trilogy by Robin Hobb. Perhaps you'd like that one. If you do, you should like Hobb's other series. I can't remember the name, but people generally have said that it's better than the first (I haven't had time to read them yet).

Did you read The Redemption of Althalus by David Eddings? Personally, that was easily the worst book I've read in a long time.

[Edited by p1forest on 05-21-01 at 10:01 PM]

I could never read the Jordan stuff. I tried the first few chapters of the first book and could not continue. But then, it seemed to me to fit into the standard self-fulfilling prophecy storyline of:

(1) evil guy menaces world
(2) evil guy finds out someone(A) will destroy him
(3) evil guy sends minions to kill this someone(A) before someone kills him

(4) someone(A) is unaware of his/her destiny
(5) someone(A) just wants to raise corn/children
(6) someone(A) is told by someone else(B) they have a destiny but someone(A) just wants to be left alone to live out the remainder of life in small out-of-the-way village

(7) evil minions try to kill someone(A) but fail
(8) someone else(B) tells someone "see, evil minion will never stop, you must fulfill your destiny."
(9) more evil minion attempts fail but result in someone(A) beginning his/her journey, kicking and screaming and fighting against destiny the whole way and picks up sidekicks along the way.

(10) confrontation with evil menace, evil loses -- had evil not tried to stop the prophecy, it might not have come true as someone(A) might never have left the village.

Of course, in Jordan's book, I think he wraps this stuff up with some long-term grand struggle between good and evil and the current evil menace and someone(A) are the reincarnations or avatars of forces that have existed from the beginning of time and must be kept in balance (???) At least that is the impression I got.

As for Eddings, I picked up one of his series but could not finish the first book. For some reasons, some of the female characters ticked me off. I must have been in "masculinist" mode at the time. Maybe I should give them another shot.

I'd agree somewhat with your basic analysis of Jordan. However, I find parts of those basic themes in most of the fantasy fiction that I read. That's one reason I admire Martin so much.

Do you recall what book/series it was? It seems almost unanimous (from what I've seen) that his first series, the Belgariad, starting with the Pawn of Prophecy, is considered his best work. Unfortunately, his writing has seemed to deteriote since them, with each successive series/book.

Your observation regarding the female characters is in no way unique. Although it's not really present in the first series I mention above (that I recall), it's something that has materialized and grown more prevalent in his later works. Possibly due to the fact that his wife has been co-author for the past decade or so (although her name isn't always on the book). The absolute worst is their latest, the Redemption of Althalus. I wonder if this is the book you read?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...743096-9321358

I guarantee you will hate this book. I defy you to read the whole thing (well, ok, you might accept the challenge, but you won't enjoy it). If this is the one you read, it is almost nothing like his first series.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by p1forest

Did you read The Redemption of Althalus by David Eddings? Personally, that was easily the worst book I've read in a long time.

QUOTE]


I've read it, it's wasn't that bad, but who can write a good story in 1 book these days. But I do have one major problem with EVERY Edding book with that stupid sentence "Oh... I do love you". I mean the characters say that every second line it seems and it's so friggin pathetic. In the Althalus book, they seem to say that more than anything else.

No, I can't recall but I think it is the Belgariad. I should have them in the basement (I hate to throw books away, even if I don't like them).

How to explain? I don't dislike strong female characters so much as I hate it when they are coupled with weak male characters. I think I read a science fiction book about by Bujold (Vorkinsen sp? series) where the heroine is female and just about every male character had serious flaws. Needless to say, I didn't read any more. But it is a very popular series.

I just don't know how to explain some of my aversion to some female characters. I guess all I can do is give examples from the movies:

Sandahl Bergman as Valeria in "Conan" -- cool and believable kick-butt swordsman (I mean, she looks like she really can slice up guys with that sword).

Sigourney Weaver as Riply in "Alien"/"Aliens" -- OK, I can buy it; she can duke it out with aliens like any guy.

Jennifer Lopez as Karen in "Out of Sight" -- less believable than either of the two above, playing a tough federal agent.

So, when I perceive that a Melanie Griffith-like female is being placed in a role that only someone like Bergman or Weaver can pull off, it annoys me.

I've read the first book and did like it. Hobb has a more refined writing style IMO than is usually found in fantasy.

But I haven't gotten around to picking up the others.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Feneant

Quote:

Originally posted by p1forest

Did you read The Redemption of Althalus by David Eddings? Personally, that was easily the worst book I've read in a long time.

QUOTE]


I've read it, it's wasn't that bad, but who can write a good story in 1 book these days. But I do have one major problem with EVERY Edding book with that stupid sentence "Oh... I do love you". I mean the characters say that every second line it seems and it's so friggin pathetic. In the Althalus book, they seem to say that more than anything else.

Actually, I thought I saw "Yes Dear" "Yes Dear" "Whatever you say Dear" much more often.

I know some people liked this book, but I had major problems with it. I don't have the time now to discuss (I'm at work). And I'll admit a small factor might be because I read this right after A Storm of Swords. It made the deficiencies of Redemption of Althalus stand out all the more.

I thought I had those Eddings books here at home. But I can't find them. They might be boxed up. The pain of digging them out--ugh. More likely, they are still at my parent's house, hundreds of miles away. Maybe if I visit my family I'll see if they are there.

On another matter....Jack Vance
Last time I went there I checked through my old books and what upset me was that I could not find my copy of "Suldrun's Garden" by Jack Vance. It is the first of the Lyonesse series. I got into this series when I was intrigued by the paperback version of "The Green Pearl," an awesome cover IMO. Greenish/yellow background with this guy with cool armor (?) on some beast. Wicked. Imagine my dismay when I realized it was book 2. So, I had to wait for months until I found book 1. I did read the 3rd book, "Madouc" but was not blown away by it as I was by the first two.

What I like best about Vance is the dialogue between characters. It is so cool IMO. This holds true for the dialogue in other Vance books as well. A couple that are fun to read are the "Dying Earth" and "Cugel's Saga." I have to point out that the magic in Vance's books is not exactly predictable (i.e., a system of magic with clear rules/limits is not exactly spelled out so anything goes). Also, he sometimes just wraps stuff up. A bit annoying.