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OldDude
03-03-08, 02:44 PM
It's almost time for early DST, this Sunday at 2 AM. I think the 3 weeks extra in the spring and 1 week extra in the fall is particularly stupid. There just isn't enough daylight to save yet, and its too damn cold to work in the yard.

Meanwhile, a study in Indiana, which changed last year from "patchwork DST" to the whole state on DST, says DST wastes energy, with increased a/c and heating offsetting any lightbulb savings. This study is for the entire DST period, not just the recent three extra weeks in fall and spring.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bal-daylight0303,0,924321.story
Daylight saving may be a waste of energy, study says
By Justin Lahart | The Wall Street Journal
March 3, 2008

For decades, conventional wisdom has held that daylight-saving time, which begins March 9, reduces energy use. But a unique situation in Indiana provides evidence challenging that view: Springing forward may actually waste energy.

Up until two years ago, only 15 of Indiana's 92 counties set their clocks an hour ahead in the spring and an hour back in the fall. The rest stayed on standard time all year, in part because farmers resisted the prospect of having to work an extra hour in the morning dark. But many residents came to hate falling in and out of sync with businesses and residents in neighboring states and prevailed upon the Indiana Legislature to put the entire state on daylight-saving time beginning in the spring of 2006.

Indiana's change of heart gave University of California- Santa Barbara economics professor Matthew Kotchen and Ph.D. student Laura Grant a unique way to see how the time shift affects energy use. Using more than seven million monthly meter readings from Duke Energy Corp., covering nearly all the households in southern Indiana for three years, they were able to compare energy consumption before and after counties began observing daylight-saving time. Readings from counties that had already adopted daylight-saving time provided a control group that helped them to adjust for changes in weather from one year to the next.
Their finding: Having the entire state switch to daylight-saving time each year, rather than stay on standard time, costs Indiana households an additional $8.6 million in electricity bills. They conclude that the reduced cost of lighting in afternoons during daylight-saving time is more than offset by the higher air-conditioning costs on hot afternoons and increased heating costs on cool mornings.

"I've never had a paper with such a clear and unambiguous finding as this," says Kotchen, who presented the paper at a National Bureau of Economic Research conference this month.

A 2007 study by economists Hendrik Wolff and Ryan Kellogg of the temporary extension of daylight-saving in two Australian territories for the 2000 Summer Olympics also suggested the clock change increases energy use.

That isn't what Benjamin Franklin would have expected. In 1784, he observed what an "immense sum! that the city of Paris might save every year, by the economy of using sunshine instead of candles." (Franklin didn't propose setting clocks forward, instead he satirically suggested levying a tax on window shutters, ringing church bells at sunrise and, if that didn't work, firing cannons down the street in order to rouse Parisians out of their beds earlier.)

During the first and second world wars, the U.S. temporarily enacted daylight-saving time as an energy-saving measure. Over time, most states began changing their clocks, and in response to the 1973 oil shock, the country extended daylight-saving time in 1974 and 1975. Analyzing that time shift, a 1975 report by the U.S. Department of Transportation concluded that the change reduced electricity demand by 1 percent in March and April. But in a 1976 report to Congress evaluating that analysis, the National Bureau of Standards concluded that there were no significant energy savings.

Still, the Transportation Department study stuck. Speaking before the House of Representatives in 2002, Indiana Rep. Julia Carson said that under daylight-saving time, Indiana families would save "over $7 million annually in electricity rates alone."

In 2005, Reps. Edward J. Markey of Massachusetts and Fred Upton of Michigan drafted legislation that would extend daylight-saving time nationwide. Congress approved the amendment, which called for clocks to be sprung forward a week earlier in the spring and to be set back three weeks later in the fall. The change went into effect last year.

The energy-savings numbers often cited by lawmakers and others come from research conducted in the 1970s. Yet a key difference between now and the '70s -- or, for that matter, Ben Franklin's time -- is the prevalence of air conditioning.

"In an inland state like Indiana, it gets hot in the summer," says Steve Gustafsen, a lawyer in New Albany, Ind., who filed a suit in 2000 in an effort to get his county to abandon daylight-saving time. "Daylight saving means running the air conditioner more."

That was borne out by the study by Kotchen and Grant. Their research showed that while an extra hour of daylight in the evenings may mean less electricity is spent on lights, it also means that houses are warmer in the summer when people come home from work. Conversely, during daylight-saving time's cooler months, people may crank up the thermostats more in the morning.

Still, the case on daylight-saving time isn't closed.

"My read on this study is that it's one data point that gives us something to think about," says Richard Stevie, an economist with Duke Energy, of Kotchen and Grant's research. "I think that additional research really needs to be done." And UCLA economist Matthew Kahn points out that even if the evidence on Indiana is airtight, the effect of daylight-saving time on other states might be different -- a point that Markey makes as well.

"One study of the situation in Indiana cannot accurately asses the impact of (daylight-saving time) changes across the nation, especially when it does not include more northern, colder regions," the congressman notes.

There may also be social benefits to daylight-saving time that weren't covered in the research. When the extension of daylight-saving time was proposed by Markey, he cited studies that noted "less crime, fewer traffic fatalities, more recreation time and increased economic activity" with the extra sunlight in the evening.

In Indiana, the debate goes on. "The simpler the issue, the more people have opinions about it," says Indiana State Rep. Scott Reske, who voted against the switch to daylight-saving time. In the aftermath of the time shift, "a lot of people who hated it now love it, and a lot of people who loved it now hate it," he says. A separate debate over whether the state should be on Central or Eastern Time rages on.

Tracer Bullet
03-03-08, 02:48 PM
DST starts on Sunday? Fuck. Change it back!

wendersfan
03-03-08, 02:52 PM
"I've never had a paper with such a clear and unambiguous finding as this," says Kotchen, who presented the paper at a National Bureau of Economic Research conference this month.Ain't science grand?

Dumbass government policies, not so much.

wishbone
03-03-08, 02:55 PM
Didn't they determine that the early/later DST switch did not save any add'l energy as well? That did not include all the work-arounds for devices and software that were coded for first Sunday in April/last Sunday in October item.

Bronkster
03-03-08, 02:57 PM
Think of the cows!!

dick_grayson
03-03-08, 02:57 PM
so long as my S.A.D. lifts, I don't care when they do it

mosquitobite
03-03-08, 03:07 PM
I love DST for the extra sunlight in the evenings. :shrug:

wishbone
03-03-08, 03:09 PM
I love DST for the extra sunlight in the evenings. :shrug:You mean you did not enjoy having your cable tv programs changing times between EST and CST or trying to remember if California was three hours behind or just two? ;)

The Cow
03-03-08, 03:10 PM
Think of the cows!!
Damn straight! :up:

Tracer Bullet
03-03-08, 03:14 PM
I love DST for the extra sunlight in the evenings. :shrug:

I hate it for that reason.

NCMojo
03-03-08, 03:15 PM
Too much ready-ready -- not enough bolding. What does the "2:1" in the thread title mean?

mosquitobite
03-03-08, 03:16 PM
You mean you did not enjoy having your cable tv programs changing times between EST and CST or trying to remember if California was three hours behind or just two? ;)

Actually, I was in one of the counties in Indiana that has always observed DST (well as long as I've been alive at least). There were a few counties to the north that didn't, and some of those people worked down here (including me when I was married to my ex). Now THAT was confusing! Working on DST, but living on "slow time" (that's the local slang for the other) was unique to say the least.

It was nice to say you worked 7-4 instead of 8-5 during the summer, but it really made no difference since I was going to bed at 8 or 9 instead of 9 to 10 ;)

wishbone
03-03-08, 03:17 PM
Actually, I was in one of the counties in Indiana that has always observed DST (well as long as I've been alive at least). There were a few counties to the north that didn't, and some of those people worked down here (including me when I was married to my ex). Now THAT was confusing! Working on DST, but living on "slow time" (that's the local slang for the other) was unique to say the least.

It was nice to say you worked 7-4 instead of 8-5 during the summer, but it really made no difference since I was going to bed at 8 or 9 instead of 9 to 10 ;)I remember hearing about "slow time" -- that would take getting used to.

OldDude
03-03-08, 03:19 PM
Too much ready-ready -- not enough bolding. What does the "2:1" in the thread title mean?

Two stories for the price of one.

You don't even need to read the article -- I completely summarized it in two sentences. I just quoted it to prove i had one. :)

Venusian
03-03-08, 09:16 PM
I don't see why you have to run extra AC? Is it a psychological thing? the heat is going to be there no matter what time it is

Venusian
03-03-08, 09:18 PM
just read this
Their research showed that while an extra hour of daylight in the evenings may mean less electricity is spent on lights, it also means that houses are warmer in the summer when people come home from work.

What about businesses? They should be able to turn off the AC during that time and save money, right?

Deftones
03-03-08, 09:18 PM
Wooooo. Yet again, I can declare my love for my home state by not following this absurd policy.

Ranger
03-03-08, 09:33 PM
I don't see why you have to run extra AC? Is it a psychological thing? the heat is going to be there no matter what time it is
The federal government just likes to play God.

AGuyNamedMike
03-03-08, 09:43 PM
Screw DST, and screw time zones too. Greenwich Mean Time for everybody!

naitram
03-04-08, 12:52 AM
I hate this shit. Stop messing with the time! Just leave it at one or the other, I don't care which! It fucks me up for weeks!

DVD Polizei
03-04-08, 01:26 AM
Save the bicyclists!

DST|http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/6592/bicycle2ve5.gif|DST

VinVega
03-04-08, 07:44 AM
I love DST for the extra sunlight in the evenings. :shrug:
:up: x10

wishbone
03-04-08, 08:07 AM
The clock on my thermostat will be correct again.

atlantamoi
03-04-08, 08:24 AM
I love DST for the extra sunlight in the evenings. :shrug: I hate it for watching movies in our den. 8pm and still an hour to go before darkness.

Tuan Jim
03-04-08, 08:48 AM
Here in the SE, it's always been convenient. Can't say I've ever had any complaints in NC. That could change being somewhere else - which is why I support a uniform change across the country one way or another.

classicman2
03-04-08, 09:01 AM
Ah - another study.

Do any of you'll live in an area where children ride the school bus?

Sean O'Hara
03-04-08, 09:13 AM
There just isn't enough daylight to save yet,

Sunset will go from 6 to 7 -- that's enough for me.

Jeremy517
03-04-08, 11:19 AM
Ah - another study.

Do any of you'll live in an area where children ride the school bus?

Not relevant, since the school buses have dropped kids off at home long before dark already (minus those living in parts of Alaska).

Jeremy517
03-04-08, 11:20 AM
The only positive is that playing golf after work in March is now a lot easier.

wendersfan
03-04-08, 11:43 AM
Ah - another study.

Do any of you'll live in an area where children ride the school bus?Yes. I also walk to work. This will mean that, on my way to work, as I pass by the corner where the kids wait for the school bus, we'll all be bathed in silky darkness come next week.

VinVega
03-04-08, 11:46 AM
Yes. I also walk to work. This will mean that, on my way to work, as I pass by the corner where the kids wait for the school bus, we'll all be bathed in silky darkness come next week.
Children, talk of the silky, sexy dark? I'm checking the sex offender registry for wendersfan. :eek:

:D

wendersfan
03-04-08, 11:54 AM
My poetry is wasted on you people. :grunt:

classicman2
03-04-08, 12:11 PM
Not relevant, since the school buses have dropped kids off at home long before dark already (minus those living in parts of Alaska).

They have to be picked up - before they're dropped off.

It most assuredly is relevant - in a number of places - not just Alaska.

Tracer Bullet
03-04-08, 12:13 PM
They have to be picked up - before they're dropped off.

It most assuredly is relevant - in a number of places - not just Alaska.

So you're saying we're doing it for the children? Barf.

classicman2
03-04-08, 12:19 PM
I'm saying it benefits many children who are on the school bus - especially in rural areas where there is a large consolidated school district that covers many miles.

You don't have that problem in Brooklyn.

Jeremy517
03-04-08, 12:21 PM
I'm saying it benefits many children who are on the school bus - especially in rural areas where there is a large consolidated school district that covers many miles.

Sunset in your neck of the woods happens at about 6:30 right now. I'd be willing to wager that the kids aren't coming from home from school that late, even in rural areas.

Tracer Bullet
03-04-08, 01:05 PM
Sunset in your neck of the woods happens at about 6:30 right now. I'd be willing to wager that the kids aren't coming from home from school that late, even in rural areas.

Exactly. As arguments for DST go, this one is completely nonsensical.

OldDude
03-04-08, 01:21 PM
I'm saying it benefits many children who are on the school bus - especially in rural areas where there is a large consolidated school district that covers many miles.

You don't have that problem in Brooklyn.

I think you have applied the correction backward. Both sunrise and sunset will be an hour later on the "changed clock."

It just started getting light here when the buses roll; now the kids will go back to being picked up in the dark. On the plus side, they will have another hour to play in the sun when they get home instead of doing their homework.

Or perhaps we are using different definitions of advantage and disadvantage.

wendersfan
03-04-08, 01:25 PM
I think you have applied the correction backward. Both sunrise and sunset will be an hour later on the "changed clock."Hence my comment about the schoolkids in my neighborhood waiting in the dark for the school bus to pick them up (in a bad neighborhood) as I walk by them on my way to work (in a bad neighborhood.) I had no idea the International Brotherhood of Muggers and Rapists had such pull with the federal government.

Jeremy517
03-04-08, 01:34 PM
They have to be picked up - before they're dropped off.

It most assuredly is relevant - in a number of places - not just Alaska.

I think you are confused about which way the clocks are shifting on Sunday.

Ranger
03-04-08, 01:52 PM
Regarding the comment about kids waiting in the dark, I believe it is certainly a safety issue but there are many simple solutions.
1) Shorter school days. What teacher doesn't want this?
2) More bus drivers. Shorter routes.
3) Build more schools.
4) Install better street lights.
5) *gasp* have more parents carpool and drop off kids. Make some use of these SUVs.

OldDude
03-04-08, 03:10 PM
Those are great solutions. Four of them use more power which the rest of us have to make up, before we can begin saving power, the alleged purpose of dst.

Tracer Bullet
03-04-08, 03:25 PM
Those are great solutions. Four of them use more power which the rest of us have to make up, before we can begin saving power, the alleged purpose of dst.

Exactly.

Just stop fucking with the clocks. Or at least stop pretending it's about more than some people's desire to have it be light out at 7PM in March.

Boba Fett
03-04-08, 04:18 PM
I hate DST.

Ginwen
03-04-08, 06:13 PM
I fucking hate DST. Just leave the goddamned time the same all year.

fishdude
03-05-08, 03:24 PM
Although I love the extra hour of light in the evening (Yay for sunglasses driving home from work instead of using headlights) I think we should just move our clocks by 30 minutes and leave them there forever.

Ranger
03-05-08, 03:36 PM
30 minutes. Sounds like a good compromise.

Numanoid
03-05-08, 04:00 PM
The rest stayed on standard time all year, in part because farmers resisted the prospect of having to work an extra hour in the morning dark. Ummm...how about just starting your work an hour later, Brainiac?

Quake1028
03-05-08, 05:16 PM
I fucking LOVE, LOVE, LOOOOOOOOOOOOVE DST. I wish it would be this way all year long. I love the extra light at night.

JasonF
03-05-08, 05:53 PM
I've got the perfect solution.

Next fall, when DST ends, we turn our clocks back at 2:00 a.m. like usual. That will make sunrise an hour earlier than it would otherwise be.

Then, at 1:00 p.m., we spring forward an hour. That makes sunset an hour later than it would otherwise be.

We keep repeating this every day, thereby allowing us to reqap the benefits of an earlier sunrise and a later sunset -- giving us not one, but two additional hours of sunlight each day. Problem solved!

wishbone
03-05-08, 06:00 PM
I've got the perfect solution.

Next fall, when DST ends, we turn our clocks back at 2:00 a.m. like usual. That will make sunrise an hour earlier than it would otherwise be.

Then, at 1:00 p.m., we spring forward an hour. That makes sunset an hour later than it would otherwise be.

We keep repeating this every day, thereby allowing us to reqap the benefits of an earlier sunrise and a later sunset -- giving us not one, but two additional hours of sunlight each day. Problem solved!:lol: Some of us can barely manage the clock change twice a year -- let alone twice a day.

Since everything else today is personalized how about we just designate our own time? You will never be late and you will always be on time. :D

JasonF
03-05-08, 06:11 PM
:lol: Some of us can barely manage the clock change twice a year -- let alone twice a day.

Another advantage of my plan: if you miss a clock change, don't worry -- you'll be caught up again 12 hours later!

El Scorcho
03-05-08, 06:15 PM
The only positive is that playing golf after work in March is now a lot easier.

Except for that pesky rain that only seems to pop up on days where you actually have time to play.

wishbone
03-05-08, 06:38 PM
Another advantage of my plan: if you miss a clock change, don't worry -- you'll be caught up again 12 hours later!Okay, you have my endorsement. http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/198/smileythumbsupwg4.gif


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