Game of Thrones -- "The Lion and the Rose" -- 4/13/14
04-14-14, 11:04 AM
#101
Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Lion and the Rose" -- 4/13/14
In some ways, Joffrey’s death is the toughest death for viewers because he’s such an entertaining character to lose. You really had such fun with that character and Jack Gleeson’s performance is so malevolent. Can you talk about the decision you made to end this character when you did and how you did?
Martin: Oh boy, it was so long ago! Lets see, the book came out in 2000, so I guess I wrote those scenes in like 1998. I knew all along when and how Joffrey was going to die, and on what occasion. I’d been building up to it for three years through the first books. Part of it was that there’s a lot of darkness in the books. I’ve been pretty outspoken in my desire to write a story where decisions have consequences and no one is safe. But I didn’t want it to be unrelentingly bleak—I don’t think everyone would read the books if everything was just darkness and despair and people being horribly tortured and mutilated and dying. Every once in a while you have to give the good guys a victory — where the guys who are perhaps a lighter shade of grey have a victory over the guys who are a darker shade of grey. The Red Wedding and this — fans call this the Purple Wedding — occur in the same book. In the TV show, it’s separate seasons. But Joffrey’s death was in some ways a counterweight for readers to the death of Robb and Catelyn. It shows that yes, nobody is safe—sometimes the good guys win, sometimes the bad guys win. Nobody is safe and that we are playing for keeps. I also tried to provide a certain moment of pathos with the death. I mean, Joffrey, as monstrous as he is — and certainly he’s just as monstrous in the books as he is in the TV show, and Jack has brought some incredible acting chops to the role that somehow makes him even more loathsome than he is on the page — but Joffrey in the books is still a 13-year-old kid. And there’s kind of a moment there where he knows that he’s dying and he can’t get a breath and he’s kind of looking at Tyrion and at his mother and at the other people in the hall with just terror and appeal in his eyes—you know, “Help me mommy, I’m dying.” And in that moment, I think even Tyrion sees a 13-year-old boy dying before him. So I didn’t want it to be entirely, “Hey-ho, the witch is dead.” I wanted the impact of the death to still strike home on to perhaps more complex feelings on the part of the audience, not necessarily just cheering.
You also deny us the expected way that we would think that Joffrey will die, which would be by one of the hands of the surviving Stark kids, or through some other obvious mechanism from people he has wronged. You give us his death, but deny use the typical pleasure that we would normally get from it.
Martin: I wanted to make it little bit unclear what exactly has happened here, make the readers work a little to try and figure out what has happened. And of course, for Tyrion, Joffrey’s death doesn’t make things better, it makes things worse. Tyrion’s in terrible trouble, and it proves that something I’ve tried to make a point of through the whole series: Decisions have consequences. When Robb breaks his word to House Frey and doesn’t marry one of Frey’s daughters, that has dire consequences for him. One of Tyrion’s problems has been that he has a big mouth. He’s been saying things since the beginning of the series, these veiled threats to Cersei—”someday I’m going to get you for this, someday your joy is going to turn to ashes in your mouth.” Now, all these declarations make him look really guilty.
04-14-14, 11:08 AM
#102
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Lion and the Rose" -- 4/13/14
Great episode... Glad he's dead and loved the way it happened.
I do have a question though as I don't know if it was ever mentioned in the show (it may have and I completely missed it). We know Joffrey is Ceresi and Jamie's kid, but are all of Ceresi's children fathered by Jamie? Did any of Robert's swimmers get through??
I do have a question though as I don't know if it was ever mentioned in the show (it may have and I completely missed it). We know Joffrey is Ceresi and Jamie's kid, but are all of Ceresi's children fathered by Jamie? Did any of Robert's swimmers get through??
Which sort of a strain on the marriage and also implied that Robert and Cersei couldn't have children together?
04-14-14, 11:11 AM
#103
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Lion and the Rose" -- 4/13/14
No, that was just something the TV show created (Cersei in season 1 expressed regret over a child between Robert and Cersei that died). That never happened in the book. Cersei deliberately prevented any children with Robert. She drank moon tea to prevent that.
04-14-14, 11:11 AM
#104
DVD Talk God
Thread Starter
Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Lion and the Rose" -- 4/13/14
Deadline posted a headline in their Facebook feed that Joffrey died and people commenting are losing their shit about the spoiler. I get that people sometimes can't watch GOT right away, but if you really want to stay spoiler-free, don't log on to social media until you watch it.
04-14-14, 11:12 AM
#105
DVD Talk Godfather
04-14-14, 11:14 AM
#106
Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Lion and the Rose" -- 4/13/14
Deadline posted a headline in their Facebook feed that Joffrey died and people commenting are losing their shit about the spoiler. I get that people sometimes can't watch GOT right away, but if you really want to stay spoiler-free, don't log on to social media until you watch it. I saw that. Picture and headline.
04-14-14, 11:31 AM
#107
DVD Talk God
Thread Starter
04-14-14, 11:32 AM
#108
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Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Lion and the Rose" -- 4/13/14
04-14-14, 11:38 AM
#109
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Lion and the Rose" -- 4/13/14
Sorry, but I always think these "what'll happen next?!?" discussions about this show are pretty funny. Storm of Swords was published almost 13 years ago. It's a good book and worth reading, it turns out.
04-14-14, 11:46 AM
#110
Suspended
Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Lion and the Rose" -- 4/13/14
Grand Maester Pycelle.
04-14-14, 11:49 AM
#111
Suspended
Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Lion and the Rose" -- 4/13/14
A redditor explains how the poison got to Joffrey here: http://imgur.com/gallery/0EQr6
04-14-14, 11:53 AM
#112
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Lion and the Rose" -- 4/13/14
Deadline posted a headline in their Facebook feed that Joffrey died and people commenting are losing their shit about the spoiler. I get that people sometimes can't watch GOT right away, but if you really want to stay spoiler-free, don't log on to social media until you watch it.Just by the mere fact that these have been books published for over a decade (popular ones at that), means that you can not expect to be free of spoilers like you can with something like Breaking Bad.
04-14-14, 12:06 PM
#113
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Lion and the Rose" -- 4/13/14
I don't necessarily mind the spoilers as much as I mind the spoilers when they take place less than 12 hours after the episode airs.
Not everybody watches a show when it's aired live.
Not everybody watches a show when it's aired live.
04-14-14, 12:10 PM
#115
Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Lion and the Rose" -- 4/13/14
If I were that kid who played Joffrey, I'd take a few years off acting and enjoy being a teen, because he is going to be SERIOUSLY typecast.
04-14-14, 12:11 PM
#116
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Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Lion and the Rose" -- 4/13/14
I think he basically had to break her heart to get her to leave. She had shown before that she was unwilling to go no matter how much danger Tyrion told her she was in. So thats what Tyrion had to do to get her to leave.
04-14-14, 12:12 PM
#117
DVD Talk Limited Edition
04-14-14, 12:21 PM
#118
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Lion and the Rose" -- 4/13/14
Deadline posted a headline in their Facebook feed that Joffrey died and people commenting are losing their shit about the spoiler. I get that people sometimes can't watch GOT right away, but if you really want to stay spoiler-free, don't log on to social media until you watch it.
04-14-14, 12:30 PM
#119
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Lion and the Rose" -- 4/13/14
04-14-14, 12:30 PM
#120
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Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Lion and the Rose" -- 4/13/14
Maybe this is explains your feelings?
In some ways, Joffrey’s death is the toughest death for viewers because he’s such an entertaining character to lose. You really had such fun with that character and Jack Gleeson’s performance is so malevolent. Can you talk about the decision you made to end this character when you did and how you did?
Martin: Oh boy, it was so long ago! Lets see, the book came out in 2000, so I guess I wrote those scenes in like 1998. I knew all along when and how Joffrey was going to die, and on what occasion. I’d been building up to it for three years through the first books. Part of it was that there’s a lot of darkness in the books. I’ve been pretty outspoken in my desire to write a story where decisions have consequences and no one is safe. But I didn’t want it to be unrelentingly bleak—I don’t think everyone would read the books if everything was just darkness and despair and people being horribly tortured and mutilated and dying. Every once in a while you have to give the good guys a victory — where the guys who are perhaps a lighter shade of grey have a victory over the guys who are a darker shade of grey. The Red Wedding and this — fans call this the Purple Wedding — occur in the same book. In the TV show, it’s separate seasons. But Joffrey’s death was in some ways a counterweight for readers to the death of Robb and Catelyn. It shows that yes, nobody is safe—sometimes the good guys win, sometimes the bad guys win. Nobody is safe and that we are playing for keeps. I also tried to provide a certain moment of pathos with the death. I mean, Joffrey, as monstrous as he is — and certainly he’s just as monstrous in the books as he is in the TV show, and Jack has brought some incredible acting chops to the role that somehow makes him even more loathsome than he is on the page — but Joffrey in the books is still a 13-year-old kid. And there’s kind of a moment there where he knows that he’s dying and he can’t get a breath and he’s kind of looking at Tyrion and at his mother and at the other people in the hall with just terror and appeal in his eyes—you know, “Help me mommy, I’m dying.” And in that moment, I think even Tyrion sees a 13-year-old boy dying before him. So I didn’t want it to be entirely, “Hey-ho, the witch is dead.” I wanted the impact of the death to still strike home on to perhaps more complex feelings on the part of the audience, not necessarily just cheering.
You also deny us the expected way that we would think that Joffrey will die, which would be by one of the hands of the surviving Stark kids, or through some other obvious mechanism from people he has wronged. You give us his death, but deny use the typical pleasure that we would normally get from it.
Martin: I wanted to make it little bit unclear what exactly has happened here, make the readers work a little to try and figure out what has happened. And of course, for Tyrion, Joffrey’s death doesn’t make things better, it makes things worse. Tyrion’s in terrible trouble, and it proves that something I’ve tried to make a point of through the whole series: Decisions have consequences. When Robb breaks his word to House Frey and doesn’t marry one of Frey’s daughters, that has dire consequences for him. One of Tyrion’s problems has been that he has a big mouth. He’s been saying things since the beginning of the series, these veiled threats to Cersei—”someday I’m going to get you for this, someday your joy is going to turn to ashes in your mouth.” Now, all these declarations make him look really guilty.
In some ways, Joffrey’s death is the toughest death for viewers because he’s such an entertaining character to lose. You really had such fun with that character and Jack Gleeson’s performance is so malevolent. Can you talk about the decision you made to end this character when you did and how you did?
Martin: Oh boy, it was so long ago! Lets see, the book came out in 2000, so I guess I wrote those scenes in like 1998. I knew all along when and how Joffrey was going to die, and on what occasion. I’d been building up to it for three years through the first books. Part of it was that there’s a lot of darkness in the books. I’ve been pretty outspoken in my desire to write a story where decisions have consequences and no one is safe. But I didn’t want it to be unrelentingly bleak—I don’t think everyone would read the books if everything was just darkness and despair and people being horribly tortured and mutilated and dying. Every once in a while you have to give the good guys a victory — where the guys who are perhaps a lighter shade of grey have a victory over the guys who are a darker shade of grey. The Red Wedding and this — fans call this the Purple Wedding — occur in the same book. In the TV show, it’s separate seasons. But Joffrey’s death was in some ways a counterweight for readers to the death of Robb and Catelyn. It shows that yes, nobody is safe—sometimes the good guys win, sometimes the bad guys win. Nobody is safe and that we are playing for keeps. I also tried to provide a certain moment of pathos with the death. I mean, Joffrey, as monstrous as he is — and certainly he’s just as monstrous in the books as he is in the TV show, and Jack has brought some incredible acting chops to the role that somehow makes him even more loathsome than he is on the page — but Joffrey in the books is still a 13-year-old kid. And there’s kind of a moment there where he knows that he’s dying and he can’t get a breath and he’s kind of looking at Tyrion and at his mother and at the other people in the hall with just terror and appeal in his eyes—you know, “Help me mommy, I’m dying.” And in that moment, I think even Tyrion sees a 13-year-old boy dying before him. So I didn’t want it to be entirely, “Hey-ho, the witch is dead.” I wanted the impact of the death to still strike home on to perhaps more complex feelings on the part of the audience, not necessarily just cheering.
You also deny us the expected way that we would think that Joffrey will die, which would be by one of the hands of the surviving Stark kids, or through some other obvious mechanism from people he has wronged. You give us his death, but deny use the typical pleasure that we would normally get from it.
Martin: I wanted to make it little bit unclear what exactly has happened here, make the readers work a little to try and figure out what has happened. And of course, for Tyrion, Joffrey’s death doesn’t make things better, it makes things worse. Tyrion’s in terrible trouble, and it proves that something I’ve tried to make a point of through the whole series: Decisions have consequences. When Robb breaks his word to House Frey and doesn’t marry one of Frey’s daughters, that has dire consequences for him. One of Tyrion’s problems has been that he has a big mouth. He’s been saying things since the beginning of the series, these veiled threats to Cersei—”someday I’m going to get you for this, someday your joy is going to turn to ashes in your mouth.” Now, all these declarations make him look really guilty.
The look on his face as he's dying was also very effective as it almost made you think of him as just a scared kid instead of an evil ahole.
04-14-14, 12:30 PM
#121
DVD Talk Legend
04-14-14, 12:34 PM
#122
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Lion and the Rose" -- 4/13/14
Jack Gleeson, who King Prince Joffrey in Game of Thrones, is reconsidering his acting career and may pursue a more academic career path.
Speaking to Brendan O'Connor on The Saturday Night Show last night, the 21-year-old Cork native who studies philosophy and theology in Trinity College, Dublin, said, "I have wanted to become an actor and it's just the last few years I've started to change my mind about it, so I'm liable to change it again.
"It's hard to explain, once the prospect of becoming an actor professionally, and essentially my dreams became a reality, well it nearly professionalises it too much.
"It was a recreation beforehand and when I started doing Game of Thrones there was, I wouldn't say pressure, but perhaps the reality became too real for me."
He added, "I feel slightly ungrateful because I'm in a position that, as you said, a lot of people would like to be in, but I guess I'll just have to be ungrateful for the time being."
Gleeson also spoke about his work for charity GOAL on last night's show and revealed that he doesn't actually watch Game of Thrones himself. "I don't tend to, it's bizarre when you see those clips, you tend to abstract yourself from the creepiness of it when you're playing it, so to see it on television, it sends a shiver down my spine."
Speaking to Brendan O'Connor on The Saturday Night Show last night, the 21-year-old Cork native who studies philosophy and theology in Trinity College, Dublin, said, "I have wanted to become an actor and it's just the last few years I've started to change my mind about it, so I'm liable to change it again.
"It's hard to explain, once the prospect of becoming an actor professionally, and essentially my dreams became a reality, well it nearly professionalises it too much.
"It was a recreation beforehand and when I started doing Game of Thrones there was, I wouldn't say pressure, but perhaps the reality became too real for me."
He added, "I feel slightly ungrateful because I'm in a position that, as you said, a lot of people would like to be in, but I guess I'll just have to be ungrateful for the time being."
Gleeson also spoke about his work for charity GOAL on last night's show and revealed that he doesn't actually watch Game of Thrones himself. "I don't tend to, it's bizarre when you see those clips, you tend to abstract yourself from the creepiness of it when you're playing it, so to see it on television, it sends a shiver down my spine."
04-14-14, 12:35 PM
#123
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Lion and the Rose" -- 4/13/14
Ellen got a GoT hashtag trending this morning:
@TheEllenShow
Everyone's so excited about Game of Thrones, I think I wanna start watching. Can anyone catch me up really quick? #SoFarOnGameOfThrones
@TheEllenShow
Everyone's so excited about Game of Thrones, I think I wanna start watching. Can anyone catch me up really quick? #SoFarOnGameOfThrones