Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams
#251
DVD Talk Limited Edition
re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams
It's a thread about whether Return of the Jedi is great, how do you want us to answer? Seems like I can answer whether I agree and here's why, or I disagree and here's why.
#253
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 688
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams
The problem with ROTJ is the pacing, as there are some great moments that rival anything in the trilogy, and there are some bad moments that the movie comes to a complete halt.
The opening scene with Jabba is too long, and too boring IMO until Luke fights the rancor. And frankly, the whole plan to free Han makes no sense, especially when Leia rescues him yet Jabba and his crowd are all hiding behind a curtain? I guess he doesn't like his favorite decoration, because he watched this bounty hunter free Han and did nothing?
When Luke and Co. get to Endor, the movie comes to a complete halt after the Speeder Bike Chase, and doesn't really get good again until the throne room scenes.
I actually think the Ewoks are the least of the problems of ROTJ, as the pacing is terrible compared to Star Wars and Empire. Star Wars and Empire are compelling for all 2 hours, and there just isn't a bad scene in them (IMO), whereas half of ROTJ is great, and the other half is bad.
The Prequels continued that trend, but those movies are about 1/4 great, and 3/4 bad, as they ALL suffer the same pacing problems too.
The opening scene with Jabba is too long, and too boring IMO until Luke fights the rancor. And frankly, the whole plan to free Han makes no sense, especially when Leia rescues him yet Jabba and his crowd are all hiding behind a curtain? I guess he doesn't like his favorite decoration, because he watched this bounty hunter free Han and did nothing?
When Luke and Co. get to Endor, the movie comes to a complete halt after the Speeder Bike Chase, and doesn't really get good again until the throne room scenes.
I actually think the Ewoks are the least of the problems of ROTJ, as the pacing is terrible compared to Star Wars and Empire. Star Wars and Empire are compelling for all 2 hours, and there just isn't a bad scene in them (IMO), whereas half of ROTJ is great, and the other half is bad.
The Prequels continued that trend, but those movies are about 1/4 great, and 3/4 bad, as they ALL suffer the same pacing problems too.
I can't think of any bad scenes in Star Wars or Empire, and they both have more than three great scenes each. I struggle to call any of the scenes in Jedi great, although a few parts come close. But it has so many bad scenes...it's really a struggle for me to get throught the whole thing.
#254
DVD Talk Legend
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: wandering the earth like Caine in the Kung-Fu
Posts: 19,937
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
5 Posts
re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams
I never got the hate for ROTJ. Granted, this was my first Star Wars in theaters(at the age of 4) but I always thought it was a satisfying conclusion to the Original trilogy. It's paced just fine to me. I probably would find it not as good if I was older and had experienced Star Wars and ESB beforehand. I even like it more than A New Hope. I don't think I would call ROTJ great or bad though. Just good.
#256
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Formerly known as "Solid Snake PAC"/Denton, Tx
Posts: 39,239
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams
I was never a SW kid. And I thought the Ewoks were crappy as a kid. But I wouldn't mind hugging one cuz they're so cute.
#259
RIP
re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams
In all my years, I have never raped ANYONE who I didn't truly believe wanted to be raped.
#260
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams
I never got the hate for ROTJ. Granted, this was my first Star Wars in theaters(at the age of 4) but I always thought it was a satisfying conclusion to the Original trilogy. It's paced just fine to me. I probably would find it not as good if I was older and had experienced Star Wars and ESB beforehand. I even like it more than A New Hope. I don't think I would call ROTJ great or bad though. Just good.
But that wasn't to be. By the time the story conference (with Lucas, Marquand, Kasdan, and Kanzijian) rolled around, Lucas had decided to dispense with just about all of the 'smart' character continuity (some of which i referenced earlier) and just scrub it clean. He's quoted several times in the transcripts saying He wants the story written for 7 year olds - he wanted everything at that intellectual level. No concepts or substance that would go over the head of the average second grader.
Kasden frequently voices disbelief and surprise that this is the direction Lucas wants to take the material, but his mind at this point is made up.
Gone is the natural conflict between Vader and The Emperor (that actually provides motivation for Vader killing him- motivation that is absent or unsupported in the final film) as is the idea that Luke' failures gave him any further performance anxiety. Or that Leia is torn between her very serious responsibilities to the rebellion and her high school romance with her boyfriend...just to name a few.
there was also an early idea that both Yoda and Ben would show up on the
sidelines as Luke had his last duel with Vader. Lucas toyed with the idea that Ben wasn't really dead, but that his stay in the netherworld was contingent on Luke resolving the situation with Vader. If he didn't snuff out Vader, Ben's time would expire and he would merge with the force. As L&V duel, Ben and Yoda would be blocking any attempts by the Emperor to fix the game.
There's still a few interesting things left to transcribe, including some funny exchanges in the transcripts, for anyone that's still interested. i'll try to get it up over the weekend.
Last edited by Paul_SD; 11-07-13 at 01:56 PM.
#262
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams
Although Rinzler quotes substantial portions, the conference last several long days. I would love to be able to read the whole thing. I walked away from the Raiders conference transcript with an entirely different opinion of both Spielberg and Lucas. Lower for the former and much higher for the latter.
But just to whet your appetite, here's one exchange in the ROTJ transcript I found amusing.
.
But just to whet your appetite, here's one exchange in the ROTJ transcript I found amusing.
LUCAS: We're going to have to cope with Billy.
MARQUAND: Well seriously, the Falcon is the thing to send him in.
LUCAS: I'm just going to have to break the news that it's not about him.
KASDEN: Why does he think it's about him?
LUCAS: Because he's an actor
MARQUAND: Well seriously, the Falcon is the thing to send him in.
LUCAS: I'm just going to have to break the news that it's not about him.
KASDEN: Why does he think it's about him?
LUCAS: Because he's an actor
#263
DVD Talk Limited Edition
re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams
#264
DVD Talk Gold Edition
re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams
Indy was 25 and Marion was 15?!?!
Last edited by hasslein; 11-07-13 at 09:01 PM.
#265
re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams
#266
RIP
re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams
I'm not a ROTJ apologist, but I am definitely biased, as it was a film of my youth. It does have flaws, and I can see where it would have been viewed as somewhat of a disappointment in 1983. That being said, it's my favorite after ESB, if only for the scenes with Luke, Vader and the Emperor, which I find very dark (tonally and visually). It's very exciting stuff, and crushes any of the prequels, IMO.
If you want disappointment, try any of my past "Take Me Home Tonight" output.
If you want disappointment, try any of my past "Take Me Home Tonight" output.
#267
DVD Talk Gold Edition
re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams
HA! That is awesome. Karen Allen always looked 30ish to me, so it never crossed my mind. Funny I just saw The Possessed (1977) for the first time last night, Harrison plays a teacher that sleeps with his students & faculty... One of the students is the daughter of a teacher with whom he was intimate.
Last edited by hasslein; 11-08-13 at 01:50 PM.
#268
DVD Talk Legend
re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams
I'm not a ROTJ apologist, but I am definitely biased, as it was a film of my youth. It does have flaws, and I can see where it would have been viewed as somewhat of a disappointment in 1983. That being said, it's my favorite after ESB, if only for the scenes with Luke, Vader and the Emperor, which I find very dark (tonally and visually). It's very exciting stuff, and crushes any of the prequels, IMO.
As I get older, I maintain that ROTJ (and all three prequels) would benefit strongly from another pass through the editing room to tighten them up and give them a little more zing.
#269
re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams
ESB all the way. Four reasons why :
writer Leigh Brackett
director Irvin Kershner
cinematographer Peter Suschitzky
&
George Lucas did not write any of the screenplay.
None of the 3 was brought back for ROTJ
writer Leigh Brackett
director Irvin Kershner
cinematographer Peter Suschitzky
&
George Lucas did not write any of the screenplay.
None of the 3 was brought back for ROTJ
#270
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams
The Brackett script is also online, though I don't know recall where I got it.
Based on the snatches of transcripts from the ROTJ conference, I don't get the feeling that Marquand was right for the material at all. He comes across as enthusiastic, but too willing to embrace the most expedient and infantile story solutions Lucas comes up with. Kasden comes across, to me, as frustrated. I'd always been surprised that he was responsible for this films script, but now I've got the feeling he knew it was a losing proposition to give Lucas what he wanted he so he just phoned it in, in as lazy and disinterested a way as possible. Seven year olds were never going to know the difference anyway.
#271
Moderator
re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams
Return of the Jedi is in theaters for one week only to celebrate its 40th anniversary.
We went as a family tonight to a sold-out house and it was a lot of fun. Most people were into it, though a few kids (not young kids, either, they were around 10-12) were clomping up and down the stairs over and over for bathroom breaks, snack breaks, etc. Clearly, their parents wanted to go more than they did. Our kids liked it and hadn't seen it in a long time so it was both familiar and fresh.
At first, I was spotting models, matte lines, paintings, puppets, etc. After a while, I let it all go. I realize I've seen the "making of" on this one so many times that a game of pop-up video in my head isn't nearly as fun as just enjoying the movie.
The parts that I fast-forwarded as a kid are the parts I enjoyed the most now: Yoda and Obi-Wan, Luke and Leia on the bridge, Vader and Luke on Endor, all the talking scenes. I still love the space battle and that was what I watched the most as a kid, but all of those family and generational dynamics simply hit me differently as an adult with children of my own.
One thought on something I would change: the Emperor sees Luke in manicles and says, "You no longer need those," then they fall off Luke. You can see Luke realize the Emperor is a Force user. That said, there's nothing in the original trilogy until that point that makes it clear the Emperor is a Dark Side of the Force user. I think a different way to go, in terms of a surprising reveal, would be for him to tell Vader, "He no longer needs those," then have Vader use the Force to remove the manicles. If you do that, then how does Luke learn the Emperor is a Force user for the first time? With the lightning hands! I now think that would've been a much better reveal.
As far as the special edition bits, I found myself genuinely enjoying the ending montage of all of those planets and the new music much better than "Yub Nub" and the original ending. I'm even going to say yeah, I dig Hayden Christiansen there now. Maybe it's my enjoyment of the expanded Star Wars lore through Rebels, Andor, etc., but the universe is getting bigger and I like it.
I'm pretty sure Return of the Jedi is either my first or very close to my first movie in the movie theater. I remember going with my parents and grandma. When it was over, I was given the speeder bike toy with the Scout Trooper stuffed in the box. I played with that toy to death!
Excellent re-release poster by Mark Ferguson, by the way, spoilerized for size:
We went as a family tonight to a sold-out house and it was a lot of fun. Most people were into it, though a few kids (not young kids, either, they were around 10-12) were clomping up and down the stairs over and over for bathroom breaks, snack breaks, etc. Clearly, their parents wanted to go more than they did. Our kids liked it and hadn't seen it in a long time so it was both familiar and fresh.
At first, I was spotting models, matte lines, paintings, puppets, etc. After a while, I let it all go. I realize I've seen the "making of" on this one so many times that a game of pop-up video in my head isn't nearly as fun as just enjoying the movie.
The parts that I fast-forwarded as a kid are the parts I enjoyed the most now: Yoda and Obi-Wan, Luke and Leia on the bridge, Vader and Luke on Endor, all the talking scenes. I still love the space battle and that was what I watched the most as a kid, but all of those family and generational dynamics simply hit me differently as an adult with children of my own.
One thought on something I would change: the Emperor sees Luke in manicles and says, "You no longer need those," then they fall off Luke. You can see Luke realize the Emperor is a Force user. That said, there's nothing in the original trilogy until that point that makes it clear the Emperor is a Dark Side of the Force user. I think a different way to go, in terms of a surprising reveal, would be for him to tell Vader, "He no longer needs those," then have Vader use the Force to remove the manicles. If you do that, then how does Luke learn the Emperor is a Force user for the first time? With the lightning hands! I now think that would've been a much better reveal.
As far as the special edition bits, I found myself genuinely enjoying the ending montage of all of those planets and the new music much better than "Yub Nub" and the original ending. I'm even going to say yeah, I dig Hayden Christiansen there now. Maybe it's my enjoyment of the expanded Star Wars lore through Rebels, Andor, etc., but the universe is getting bigger and I like it.
I'm pretty sure Return of the Jedi is either my first or very close to my first movie in the movie theater. I remember going with my parents and grandma. When it was over, I was given the speeder bike toy with the Scout Trooper stuffed in the box. I played with that toy to death!
Excellent re-release poster by Mark Ferguson, by the way, spoilerized for size:
Spoiler:
The following 2 users liked this post by story:
Abob Teff (04-29-23),
miller_time22 (04-30-23)
#272
DVD Talk Hero
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Not necessarily Formerly known as Solid Snake
Posts: 29,261
Received 1,245 Likes
on
856 Posts
Re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams
I was looking forward to this ... not playing around here. Thanks AMC.
I hope Disney has that poster up as a reward. I snagged the ESB one and this would look fantastic with it. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of an ANH one to match.
I hope Disney has that poster up as a reward. I snagged the ESB one and this would look fantastic with it. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of an ANH one to match.
#273
DVD Talk God
Re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams
I booked a late afternoon ticket for Monday. Bummer that it's not getting a premium screen, but those screens are occupied by Mario and Sisu for AMC.
If I have time, I'm going to try to re-watch Empire before Monday since I haven't seen it in a few years and of course it segues to ROTJ.
If I have time, I'm going to try to re-watch Empire before Monday since I haven't seen it in a few years and of course it segues to ROTJ.
#274
DVD Talk Legend & 2021 TOTY Winner
Re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams
Nearest place this is showing is 30 miles away. I'll just watch the blu-ray.
#275
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams
It doesn’t look like my theater will be getting the 40th Anniversary screening. Not surprised really as they generally don’t get a lot of special screenings.
I’ve always liked the movie personally. To me it has a lot of the best stuff out of the Original Trilogy. The whole opening at Jabba’s Palace is fun although admittedly pretty convoluted when you think about it. The Speeder Bike sequence on Endor is cool. Also of course the whole showdown in the Emperor’s Throne Room on the Death Star II is awesome.
The Luke and Leia reveal as siblings I could have done without. Death Star II being a retread is kinda weak but doesn’t bother me that much. I’ve never had a big issue with the Ewoks.
I’ve always liked the movie personally. To me it has a lot of the best stuff out of the Original Trilogy. The whole opening at Jabba’s Palace is fun although admittedly pretty convoluted when you think about it. The Speeder Bike sequence on Endor is cool. Also of course the whole showdown in the Emperor’s Throne Room on the Death Star II is awesome.
The Luke and Leia reveal as siblings I could have done without. Death Star II being a retread is kinda weak but doesn’t bother me that much. I’ve never had a big issue with the Ewoks.