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Old 03-12-13, 10:22 AM   #76
Jay G.
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

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Originally Posted by slop101 View Post
Is there a comment section on the internet more useless and brain-killing than the comments on youtube?
IMDB's forums?
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Old 03-12-13, 10:28 AM   #77
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

IMDB forums are the essence of civility and high discourse compared to the YouTube comments section.
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Old 03-12-13, 11:01 AM   #78
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

I liked her video a lot, even if I didn't agree with everything in it. Glad she's able to do her thing and that we have a forum here where most of us can discuss it pretty civilly.

I honestly can't understand why so many men feel so threatened by this sort of thing.
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Old 03-12-13, 11:02 AM   #79
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

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Is there a comment section on the internet more useless and brain-killing than the comments on youtube?
Yahoo comments can be pretty awful.
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Old 03-12-13, 11:15 AM   #80
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

I can't fathom why some males are so threatened by her. It is literally beyond my comprehension.

What I do suppose is that the vast majority of them are adolescent boys who think making rape and death threats is somehow funny... This kind of thing is why I am on the fence about real name requirements. They would still post those things, but at least they would be indexed by Google forever. Hopefully when they apply for a job the employer searches for their name and sees... Oh, you made a rape and murder threat to someone 4 years ago. Application denied.
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Old 03-12-13, 11:31 AM   #81
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

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Originally Posted by slop101 View Post
Is there a comment section on the internet more useless and brain-killing than the comments on youtube?
No. Encyclopedia Drammatica's entry on Youtube pretty much summarizes it as "a great place to troll."
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Old 03-12-13, 01:04 PM   #82
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

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Yahoo comments can be pretty awful.
If imdb and Youtube had a baby born with additional learning disabilities, it'd be Yahoo comments.
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Old 03-12-13, 01:24 PM   #83
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

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Originally Posted by Breakfast with Girls View Post
I can't fathom why some males are so threatened by her. It is literally beyond my comprehension.

What I do suppose is that the vast majority of them are adolescent boys who think making rape and death threats is somehow funny... This kind of thing is why I am on the fence about real name requirements. They would still post those things, but at least they would be indexed by Google forever. Hopefully when they apply for a job the employer searches for their name and sees... Oh, you made a rape and murder threat to someone 4 years ago. Application denied.
I think a lot of people have a stupid kneejerk reaction against feminists, probably because they think wacko ladies like the one who wants to install a matriarchy is the norm. And most people, being stupid, lash out stupidly.
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Old 03-12-13, 01:55 PM   #84
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

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Originally Posted by Breakfast with Girls View Post
I can't fathom why some males are so threatened by her. It is literally beyond my comprehension.

What I do suppose is that the vast majority of them are adolescent boys who think making rape and death threats is somehow funny... This kind of thing is why I am on the fence about real name requirements. They would still post those things, but at least they would be indexed by Google forever. Hopefully when they apply for a job the employer searches for their name and sees... Oh, you made a rape and murder threat to someone 4 years ago. Application denied.
Do you really want things you said in your early teen years to be held against you in your 30s?
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Old 03-12-13, 03:19 PM   #85
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

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So his main point is that she should enable comments on the youtube page for the video.

First, he doesn't acknowledge the disparity between the 2 negative comments he received and the plethora of rape and death threats Anita received, which are an order of magnitude worse. The comments he got, no matter how wrongheaded they were, were still attempts at civil criticism. Rape and death threats are just attempts to silence that person through fear and intimidation.

She's already discussed this somewhat on her own blog:
http://www.feministfrequency.com/201...ng-on-youtube/


So people were trying to get her video delisted by flagging it as "terrorism", as well as trying to get her Kickstarter banned, in other words trying to silence here. And that's not counting the harassment she got through other websites.

Note that in the screenshot of Youtube comments in that blog post, partway through there's a comment from here on why she (initially) left the comments open:


So since she later disabled comments on that video, one can only imagine how much worse it got.
Well, when I first watched the AA video I thought he brought up some good points, but now I've read about this lady a little more and I didn't realize the magnitude of the rape and death threat comments she was getting. I now understand more why she took the comments down and take back my post.
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Old 03-12-13, 03:20 PM   #86
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

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This guy is clueless. First of all, he doesn't address the video at all, just the fact that comments and ratings were disabled. He claims comments were disabled because Sarkeesian wants to "stifle criticism". This is completely ignoring past history...I don't think we'd see any valid "criticism" posted in her YouTube comments section...just more rape jokes.

And of course, criticism of her video hasn't been stifled...there's plenty of it all over the internet...from this thread to The "Amazing" Atheist's response video. YouTube comments are probably the worst place to get interesting discourse on anything.

I only watched about half of this inane video before giving up, so if he makes any good points in the second half feel free to summarize here.
^See above post. I understand now why she took away commenting. My bad.
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Old 03-12-13, 03:21 PM   #87
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

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Originally Posted by spainlinx0 View Post
Do you really want things you said in your early teen years to be held against you in your 30s?
No. But even without that worry I still somehow managed to avoid threatening to rape women.
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Old 03-12-13, 03:29 PM   #88
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

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Well, when I first watched the AA video I thought he brought up some good points, but now I've read about this lady a little more and I didn't realize the magnitude of the rape and death threat comments she was getting. I now understand more why she took the comments down and take back my post.
That means you're a far wiser man than the Amazing Atheist.

Still, even if you no longer agree with it, I thank you for posting the video link. It's important to know that such criticism of the video series exists, and adds to the discussion.
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Old 03-15-13, 04:50 PM   #89
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

I like this response:



TL;DW

Nintendo isn't sexist. They're just lazy.
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Old 03-15-13, 05:02 PM   #90
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

That guy's missing the point. I don't think her claim ever was "OMG video game developers are so sexist!" I think the point was that these tropes reinforce sexist views, even if they aren't intended that way.
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Old 03-15-13, 09:57 PM   #91
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

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I like this response:

OMG, that guy is sooooo anoying. I hated his snarky voice. I only got about 2 1/2 minutes in, right about the time he completely missed the point about why Anita included King Kong in her video.

He also slams her for taking the time and money to research her topics and write a well reasoned argument about it, which are totally things in her favor.

I think he also missed that her video was labelled "Part 1," so may not be conveying everything she wants to cover on this topic.

Anyway, if his ultimate point was that developers aren't sexist, just lazy, then her videos still are incredibly useful in that they can illustrate to the developers that their lazy regurgitation of sexist tropes for cheap/easy dramatic effect are damaging to society, and they should maybe think harder about what they put in their games and do better.
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Old 03-15-13, 10:21 PM   #92
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

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I honestly can't understand why so many men feel so threatened by this sort of thing.
They don't. It's mostly boys (or men that didn't grow up) that feel threatened.

That said, this woman can sometimes come across as batshit insane. One time on her facebook page she was decrying an ad in a store that claimed their products were so good for your skin that you don't need to visit a plastic surgeon to look good. She of course decried the ad for objectifying women. However, a few posters pointed out that the ad was genderless. There was no model on the ad. The background was generic (nothing you could call girly or even masculine) brown swirls or streaks, as I recall. And the font chosen was plain. It was also pointed out that half the clients of said store were men.

She of course began ranting about the comments being nothing but a case of "what about the mens" (her words) and her followers (which came across as a bunch of nutbags in this particular case) complained that people that dared not be offended by the ad should not be on her site and that it should be a safe haven for people like her and, blah, blah, blah. She kept stoking those fires as well.

Which is sad because she does tackle an important subject, which is why I started this thread. However, I'd rather see someone more level headed tackle the subject. Because, although her videos are informative (if a tad dry and every so often reaching), her occasional antics and semi-hysterics do more to hurt her cause than help it.

Anyhoo, off to watch the first video in this series which I feared I'd never be alive to see. Seriously, it feels like ages since I started this thread.
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Old 03-15-13, 10:49 PM   #93
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

Just finished watching the video. I really enjoyed it and hope the next videos in the series are just as good.
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Old 03-16-13, 12:43 AM   #94
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

I liked the video up until the last couple of minutes when she calls the trope "crap" and brought out the soap box.

The response video was pretty poor and largely missed the point. But I have to say I also found it odd that Solid Snake was on the list of Damsel in Distress offenders. It's true, the story and protagonist sexually objectifies just about every female character, but the subject of this trope, Meryl is actually show escaping her captors and independently taking on the terrorists before she even meets Snake. Yes, she is put in to a damsel in distress-like role at some point, but she is a full character who actively participates in the story and not a passive object, which would seem to be one of the trope requirements.
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Old 03-16-13, 01:29 AM   #95
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

^ Actually, she points out in the video that the only requirement for the damsel in distress trope is that the woman (in this case Meryl) is depowered at all (even if for a brief time) and thus requires rescuing at some point.

Although MGS might fudge the rules a little bit. It's a woman (Sniper Wolf) who beats Meryl and hands her over to Liquid. Although Liquid still has Meryl lying on top of Metal Gear REX during the last fight, as I recall. Then Meryl helps you escape. But that brief moment is enough to set up the trope.

That said, doesn't Meryl also save Snake at some point? I can't recall as it's been years since I played the game.
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Old 03-16-13, 03:51 AM   #96
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

In general, the MGS series doesn't use the damsel in distress trope. But maybe that was her point in including it, to show that even a series like MGS has used it at some point because of how pervasive it is.
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Old 03-16-13, 08:39 AM   #97
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

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In general, the MGS series doesn't use the damsel in distress trope. But maybe that was her point in including it, to show that even a series like MGS has used it at some point because of how pervasive it is.
I dunno. She seemed to use MG and MGS as negative examples (although mainly for the sake of contrast) in the first video. I'm sure we'll find out where MGS stands in Part 2 of the Damsel In Distress Trope video.

That said, MGS as a whole will likely get vilified as this series progresses. Just look at Eva in MGS3 and Naomi apparently no longer understanding how to button her blouse in MGS4.
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Old 03-16-13, 07:43 PM   #98
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

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^ Actually, she points out in the video that the only requirement for the damsel in distress trope is that the woman (in this case Meryl) is depowered at all (even if for a brief time) and thus requires rescuing at some point.

Although MGS might fudge the rules a little bit. It's a woman (Sniper Wolf) who beats Meryl and hands her over to Liquid. Although Liquid still has Meryl lying on top of Metal Gear REX during the last fight, as I recall. Then Meryl helps you escape. But that brief moment is enough to set up the trope.

That said, doesn't Meryl also save Snake at some point? I can't recall as it's been years since I played the game.
Meryl opens the door to the DARPA chief's cell after she escapes from her own, but while the player was stuck there until she did, Snake wasn't really in captivity since he came in through a vent. She also leaves the male guard she overpowers naked, ass up on the floor.

Also, in terms of the trope as a main plot device, part of Snakes mission at the start of the game is to rescue two male characters from captivity. Snake himself is also captured, by a woman, and can be rescued depending on the player choices. Octacon, a generally sympathetic and relatable male character, is shown as a bit of a coward if he is called on for assistance as he refuses to take on the guard and flees despite Snake's plea for rescue.

While MGS may technically use the trope, I don't think it does so in a way that promotes a gender-role message.
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Old 03-17-13, 02:05 PM   #99
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

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While MGS may technically use the trope, I don't think it does so in a way that promotes a gender-role message.
Thanks. I was having a hard time remembering the events of the game. Doesn't Naomi also actively poison Snake in MGS with the FoxDie virus that is later killing him by the time of MGS4? I seem to recall her as being far more proactive in MGS than the mostly passive character she became in MGS4.

It's a shame that MGS2 reversed the positive strides of the previous game with EE. Man, I really wanted to let that girl drown. And I wanted a chance to shoot Otacon for wasting time with bullshit chatter and whining at EE.

At least MG2 had Olga, even if they killed her off in the most dismissive manner possible. I never understood why she faced Solidus without her Ninja gear. I know officially she was supposedly wearing it under her BDU but that doesn't explain how she was suddenly so slow, weak, and pathetic. She deserved an epic duel against Solidus but instead went out like a chump.
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Old 03-17-13, 02:26 PM   #100
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

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Originally Posted by Jay G. View Post
OMG, that guy is sooooo anoying. I hated his snarky voice. I only got about 2 1/2 minutes in, right about the time he completely missed the point about why Anita included King Kong in her video.

He also slams her for taking the time and money to research her topics and write a well reasoned argument about it, which are totally things in her favor.
Of course, if she hadn't completely researched this and said something like "In Donkey Kong, Mario tries to rescue Princess Peach..." her detractors would have seized upon that. Anything to keep from responding to the actual content of her video (which is why such a big deal is being made about having comments turned off).
Quote:
Anyway, if his ultimate point was that developers aren't sexist, just lazy, then her videos still are incredibly useful in that they can illustrate to the developers that their lazy regurgitation of sexist tropes for cheap/easy dramatic effect are damaging to society, and they should maybe think harder about what they put in their games and do better.
I think he's right...developers ARE lazy, and they use these tropes because it's easy storytelling, especially for a video game. Of course, you have the perfect counter to that, that they do need to think about these things when including them in their games. This appears to be Sarkeesian's point as well...I don't think she's accusing developers of having a hidden sexist agenda.
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