Go Back  DVD Talk Forum > Entertainment Discussions > Video Game Talk
Reload this Page >

Where are the next gen games?

Community
Search
Video Game Talk The Place to talk about and trade Video & PC Games

Where are the next gen games?

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 10-01-09, 09:31 AM
  #1  
DVD Talk Godfather
Thread Starter
 
The Bus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 54,916
Received 19 Likes on 14 Posts
Where are the next gen games?

http://kotaku.com/5369850/where-are-...next-gen-games



Where are all the "Next Gen" games?

The calendar says "2009". The Xbox 360 launched in 2005. That means we're four years into the "next generation" of video gaming. If so, then where the hell are our "next generation" games?

It's something that's been gnawing at me for a while now, but as we approach Christmas 2009 – the fifth holiday season for the Xbox 360, and fourth for the PlayStation 3 and Nintendo Wii – that gnawing has turned into some serious, unchecked mastication.

After all, a new hardware generation is meant to usher in a new generation of games to go with it. And not just games that look prettier, or sound better; titles that give you something entirely new in terms of game design and mechanics, something that could only be done by taking advantage of the latest in console hardware.

Yet I think only a handful of games this console generation have done so. Which ones? Oh, I'm glad you asked. Games like:

Dead Rising – There has never been a game like Dead Rising. It's open-world in appearance, but the entire game is built around the concept of navigating an endless sea of zombies in numbers previous consoles simply couldn't get on-screen at once.

Oblivion/Fallout 3 – Two games, I know, but they do the same thing, so they go in the same listing. Nobody ever forgets that first time you leave the Imperial sewers/Vault 101 and take in the world around you, realising that Bethesda haven't crafted a level, they've built a seamless, living world well beyond the scale of previous titles like Morrowind.

Yes, they also appear on PC, but remember, these games were also built from the ground up with consoles in mind, rather than being crude ports.

Wii Sports/Wii Sports Resort – To this day, the only games that have truly delivered on the promise of the Wii Remote, integrating it so naturally within the gameplay experience that you can't imagine playing the games without it.

So as good as Modern Warfare is, as good as Mario Galaxy is, I don't call them truly "next gen" games. Why? Because they fail my "next gen" test, that's why.

Here's the test: If a game can be ported to a console in a previous generation and keep its core gameplay and overall design in place, it's not what I'm calling for the purposes of this piece a "next gen" game. Mario Galaxy was great, but really, it's a GameCube title with some star-shaking stuff thrown in. Modern Warfare? Amazing, but as the upcoming Wii port attests, it used the 360 and PS3 primarily for better graphics and sound. LittleBigPlanet? Another great game, but the PSP version shows the core experience could have been done on a PS2.

Other games I think fail this test are Halo 3, BioShock, Batman: Arkham Asylum, Uncharted, Metal Gear Solid 4…OK, pretty much everything. You get the idea. Sure, they're nice and shiny, and have lovely pre-rendered cutscenes, and there are advanced uses of physics and AI under the hood, and most important of all, advanced online connectivity, but all of those are just tweaks, improvements, icing on the cake, candy for the eyes. None of them fundamentally change the way you approach a game, or a genre.

Not like Mario Kart and F-Zero did with Parallax scrolling. Or Mario 64 with its use of 3D. Or Grand Theft Auto III with its living, breathing city. Those games re-wrote the book. You just couldn't do GTAIII on the PlayStation. Or Mario 64 on the SNES. They were true "next gen" games.

Now, I'm not saying all games NEED to be 100% innovative. That's an impossible requirement. Ridiculous, even. Not every single game idea is going to bust outside the box. I like my latest version of FIFA or Call of Duty as much as the next man, and the world will spin just fine with the majority of games simply plodding along, doing what the last one did, only slightly better. Still, a man can want, can't he?

So why do we have so few this time around? What's the problem? There's refinement under the hood. There's games that some, and especially the developers, may disagree with me on (GTAIV, for example, or Halo 3 and its extensive multiplayer modes). And there are some who could argue, with a fair point, that the same problem plagued the previous generation.

Certainly the cost of development can't help. Worlds are built with engines, and engines are built on rules. If you wanted to come up with something entirely new, you'd have to do it yourself, which for many developers and publishers in this current economic climate just isn't feasible.

It can also be argued that a single jump in the mid-90's – from the 16-bit era to the N64 and PS1 – will long be the most significant in gaming, taking us as it did from 2D to 3D, and that subsequent generations can't be relied upon to deliver the same level of innovation. Fair, to a point, but then there are still plenty of games like GTAIII that were able to innovate well past the 32-bit era.

One final possibility, however, is that there is innovation going on in today's games beyond the superficial. It's just, we can't see it. Chatting with Bethesda's Todd Howard on the subject, he put this idea forward:

"I think the visual component of it is the one that everyone notices first, and it's also the prime part that benefits from what the new hardware gives you" he says. "So it's just harder to see the innovations beyond that, but they're there. I'd guess there's just as much pure 'design innovation' with this generation as there has been in the last few."

"Look at the basis now for how games handle physics, difficulty, controls, save games, or simple load screens. I know it sounds silly, but I get excited by innovations in loading screens, because they're the worst part of a game. I'm interested in how games simply start."

Promising, yeah, but does that really hold water when compared to more fundamental changes? Not really. "There's been innovations in AI, but it certainly hasn't kept pace with the graphic fidelity, which yields this overall feeling of it going backwards" Howard adds. "The environments are so complex now in games, that building good AI just to manoeuvre them takes serious time. But that's not an innovation, that's simply the AI doing what it could do before in a game.

"My hope is, as we developers turn the corner on how to make the games simply 'work,' that we can innovate more on how the games respond to the player, whether that is the AI, or socially, or something else."

Maybe that explains it, and in 30 years, we'll look back on the current generation as one where developers were finding their feet, laying the groundwork for sprawling, innovating and revolutionary titles of the future.

<hr>

I think the article makes some good points. What truly "next gen" games do you think are missing in this list?
Old 10-01-09, 09:53 AM
  #2  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 8,073
Received 217 Likes on 130 Posts
Re: Where are the next gen games?

Left 4 Dead & Portal both spring to mind. I don't see either of those working on last gen consoles. I don't think it's fair to immediately discount the importance of graphics either. Could you downgrade Bioshock and get it to run on a Gamecube, Xbox or PS2? Probably. Would it be even close to the same experience without the incredible polish that made it feel like such a truly real place? Not a chance.
Old 10-01-09, 09:59 AM
  #3  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 45,334
Received 1,022 Likes on 812 Posts
Re: Where are the next gen games?

Gears passes for me simply because of the well integrated online options (joining/leaving co-op which for whatever reason didn't seem to exist last gen.)
Old 10-01-09, 10:03 AM
  #4  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: NY
Posts: 2,195
Received 36 Likes on 21 Posts
Re: Where are the next gen games?

I suck at Halo because I strugle to get the crosshair lined up with the enemy. I am awesme at Metroid because I point the controller in the same way I'd point a gun.

The online play universe (XBox Live) is next-gen.

I never found many games to like on the Wii. I'm hoping the Poo will have better graphics and sound.
Old 10-01-09, 10:08 AM
  #5  
DVD Talk Hero
 
pinata242's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Owasso, OK
Posts: 30,154
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Re: Where are the next gen games?

By this argument, is there anything new or innovative that the "next gen" consoles allow that the previous gen didn't? It's essentially more horsepower and all the ground has been broken. It's just going to be "bigger" and "prettier" from now on. Software is restricted by hardware just as much as imagination.

The Wii had the only chance to really innovate this gen and they're simply not delivering. Maybe Natal will bring something new. Maybe Wii's successor.

This is sort of a stop-gap gen.
Old 10-01-09, 10:10 AM
  #6  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 45,334
Received 1,022 Likes on 812 Posts
Re: Where are the next gen games?

By the same standard, very little has been "next gen" since the PSX/N64/Saturn.

We still play FPS games, we still play online (Saturn), we still play 3d platformers (n64) and we still play fighters (PSX). Living, breathing worlds are new but the game remains the same.
Old 10-01-09, 10:51 AM
  #7  
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 11,973
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Re: Where are the next gen games?

I agree with him in terms of the Wii not delivering games that could be considered true next gen. At the same time, both the X-Box 360 and the PS3 are just upgrades in terms of hardware and software from the previous consoles, but the gaming concept, including the controls are pretty much the same as the X-Box and PS2.
Old 10-01-09, 11:03 AM
  #8  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12,248
Received 75 Likes on 64 Posts
Re: Where are the next gen games?

I would think wii fit is something that could not be possible last gen. And a lot of stuff on Xbox live arcade, psn and wii ware could not be done last gen due to lack of a large hard drive and no way to possibly market some of the games as physical media in stores.
Old 10-01-09, 11:11 AM
  #9  
DVD Talk Hero
 
slop101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: So. Cal.
Posts: 43,908
Received 444 Likes on 311 Posts
Re: Where are the next gen games?

It can also be argued that a single jump in the mid-90's – from the 16-bit era to the N64 and PS1 – will long be the most significant in gaming, taking us as it did from 2D to 3D, and that subsequent generations can't be relied upon to deliver the same level of innovation.
True, but that first batch of 3D games have aged horribly and are all but unplayable now, whereas the later 16-bit games have aged wonderfully, and are every bit as playable now as they were then. But I guess you gotta start somewhere.
Old 10-01-09, 11:15 AM
  #10  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Formerly known as "orangecrush18" - still legal though
Posts: 13,844
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Re: Where are the next gen games?

Off the top of my head for Wii games:

Godfather
Madworld
Proevolution Soccer
TigerWoods w/ motion plus
New Play control Pikmin
Wii Fit/EA Active
Metroid Prime 3
Harry Potter (If we forget that the wand movements weren't exactly percise)
Madden 10

You could also argue that downloadable games like Pixel Junk et al could not have been done last gen. Personally, I think the guy is full of crap.
Old 10-01-09, 11:27 AM
  #11  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 8,073
Received 217 Likes on 130 Posts
Re: Where are the next gen games?

Another thing, online play may have been around for a while, but did any system have the capability to do online co-op before this gen? I get bored pretty quickly with online deathmatch/capture the flag/etc., but I absolutely love playing through a campaign with one or more friends online. Gears, Crackdown, Halo 3, Left 4 Dead, Resident Evil 5, Marvel Ultimate Alliance and so on and so forth all benefitted immensely from the ability to jump on and play with some of my friends that I wouldn't normally be able to game with.
Old 10-01-09, 11:28 AM
  #12  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 25,058
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Re: Where are the next gen games?

Processing power is at the point where graphics don't matter anymore. It's all diminishing returns at this point.

I do agree that there hasn't been all that much innovation in terms of game mechanics.
Old 10-01-09, 11:28 AM
  #13  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 43,205
Received 36 Likes on 20 Posts
Re: Where are the next gen games?

I think we're seeing a lot of advances that aren't so obvious if you don't know what to look for. For example, I remember when Force Unleashed was coming out, they made a big deal about the fact that it incorporated three or four different engines -- a ragdoll engine for the people, another engine to account for object destructibility, an AI engine, and I think another that I'm forgetting. I don't think you could do that on a PS2 or an XBox, and the Wii port had to cut a lot of corners to get to something akin to the 360/PS3 version.
Old 10-01-09, 11:44 AM
  #14  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 5,731
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Re: Where are the next gen games?

I don't see how you could call Oblivion/Fallout next gen, but not Call of Duty 4 and the like, considering Oblivion and Fallout are just the prettier, faster, bigger versions of Morrowind. That's a big part of next gen, the extra horsepower, and discounting that seems a little bonk to me. It's like saying Shaq wouldn't have been as good a basketball player if he wasn't so giant. Well yeah, but he is, so include that.
Old 10-01-09, 11:54 AM
  #15  
DVD Talk Godfather
Thread Starter
 
The Bus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 54,916
Received 19 Likes on 14 Posts
Re: Where are the next gen games?

I think the question is more, if you try to port this game to an Xbox or a PS2, do you lose more than just the graphics, textures, etc.? You try to port Dead Rising and you end up with less enemies, which is a big factor in the game. At the same time I disagree with the articles point on Little Big Planet: I don't think you could have the combination of online level downloads, level editing, number of textures/items on a PS2. Maybe on an Xbox. You'd still have a game, but it wouldn't be the same.
Old 10-01-09, 11:54 AM
  #16  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12,248
Received 75 Likes on 64 Posts
Re: Where are the next gen games?

Originally Posted by maxfisher
Another thing, online play may have been around for a while, but did any system have the capability to do online co-op before this gen? I get bored pretty quickly with online deathmatch/capture the flag/etc., but I absolutely love playing through a campaign with one or more friends online. Gears, Crackdown, Halo 3, Left 4 Dead, Resident Evil 5, Marvel Ultimate Alliance and so on and so forth all benefitted immensely from the ability to jump on and play with some of my friends that I wouldn't normally be able to game with.
I think X-men Legends 1 or 2 had four player online co-op on ps2/xbox
Old 10-01-09, 12:13 PM
  #17  
DVD Talk Special Edition
 
XavierMike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 1,465
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Where are the next gen games?

Originally Posted by The Bus
I think the question is more, if you try to port this game to an Xbox or a PS2, do you lose more than just the graphics, textures, etc.? You try to port Dead Rising and you end up with less enemies, which is a big factor in the game. At the same time I disagree with the articles point on Little Big Planet: I don't think you could have the combination of online level downloads, level editing, number of textures/items on a PS2. Maybe on an Xbox. You'd still have a game, but it wouldn't be the same.
I agree with Little Big Planet. I don't think it would have been possible to create that kind of a sandbox atmosphere on the previous gen.

I think we are seeing advancements in story telling and immersion as well. GTAIV, Batman: AA, (upcoming) Heavy Rain all give us realized worlds that taking processing power that was not available last gen.
Old 10-01-09, 12:25 PM
  #18  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Drexl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 16,077
Likes: 0
Received 15 Likes on 13 Posts
Re: Where are the next gen games?

Saying that graphics in a game don't matter is like saying that in a film, the cinematography, lighting, art direction, special effects, etc. are meaningless if you have a good script. Yes, the script may be the most important thing, but that doesn't mean there aren't other factors that can make the movie better. I think they really mean that graphics aren't the most important thing, and that's true, but don't go to the other extreme and say they don't matter at all.

Anyway, this guy reminds me of the naysayers of Blu-ray, who think the new format isn't innovative enough over DVD. To them, it doesn't matter that a new format offers superior picture and sound, but that it doesn't have enough new toys to play with or added convenience.

Gamers are clamoring for more sequels all the time. Innovation in gaming is nice, but I don't think most of them really want constant innovation anyway. They like to come back to the familiar, as long as it's different enough that it's not exactly the same. It's just like how guys who want more comic book movies want essentially the same formula of good triumphing over evil, or how many women want yet another story of two people who hate each other and then fall in love.

BTW, a pet peeve of mine is how a current gaming generation keeps getting referred to as "next gen." No, next gen is the generation after this. Maybe for 6 months after launch, you can call a console next gen, but after that it's current gen as far as I'm concerned.
Old 10-01-09, 12:31 PM
  #19  
Moderator
 
Groucho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 71,383
Received 122 Likes on 84 Posts
Re: Where are the next gen games?

I don't think the previous gen's had the CPU to handle Left 4 Dead's AI Director.
Old 10-01-09, 12:55 PM
  #20  
DVD Talk Godfather
 
fumanstan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Irvine, CA
Posts: 55,349
Received 26 Likes on 14 Posts
Re: Where are the next gen games?

Originally Posted by maxfisher
Another thing, online play may have been around for a while, but did any system have the capability to do online co-op before this gen? I get bored pretty quickly with online deathmatch/capture the flag/etc., but I absolutely love playing through a campaign with one or more friends online. Gears, Crackdown, Halo 3, Left 4 Dead, Resident Evil 5, Marvel Ultimate Alliance and so on and so forth all benefitted immensely from the ability to jump on and play with some of my friends that I wouldn't normally be able to game with.
Originally Posted by mhg83
I think X-men Legends 1 or 2 had four player online co-op on ps2/xbox
It doesn't help that online coop is something PC's have been doing well for over a decade.

I'm not really sure if there's anything else i'd really look for in games other then continued refinement of existing features that are out there. The Wii introduced a new way to play, but 95% of the time it doesn't really add anything to the gameplay for me.
Old 10-01-09, 01:26 PM
  #21  
2017 TOTY Winner
 
Save Ferris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 13,579
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Re: Where are the next gen games?

I think the next milestone is a workable virtual reality interface of some kind. It will be incremental enhancements in what we have now until then.
Old 10-01-09, 01:31 PM
  #22  
DVD Talk Godfather
Thread Starter
 
The Bus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 54,916
Received 19 Likes on 14 Posts
Re: Where are the next gen games?

Originally Posted by Save Ferris
I think the next milestone is a workable virtual reality interface of some kind. It will be incremental enhancements in what we have now until then.
And with Natal et al (see what I did there?) just starting to scratch the surface, I think we're at least a decade away before this becomes something beyond a gimmick. Hell, motion control is still a gimmick in 95% of games.
Old 10-01-09, 01:38 PM
  #23  
DVD Talk Hero
 
pinata242's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Owasso, OK
Posts: 30,154
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Re: Where are the next gen games?

I think motion control is limited (again, hardware) by the controllers. There's only a few applications where it feels natural. With the Wii it's the games that put you in the game. Wii Sports is obvious because the Wiimote replicates your ball, club, or racquet. Even FPS pointing games work because you're sort of immersed, with the exception of your thumb acting as your feet.

Natal is a step to capture your body and bring that into the game world, but it's still missing the kinetic response your body will need to immerse completely. It'll be gimmicky in its own right.

We're getting there, though.
Old 10-01-09, 01:57 PM
  #24  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 44,213
Received 1,937 Likes on 1,498 Posts
Re: Where are the next gen games?

I don't see how you can say Dead Rising is "next gen" because the sheer number of enemies is integral to the game, but then downplay the effect of improved graphics as "next gen," especially when the improved graphics are integral to the game. And it seems like we're discounting a lot of the AI that goes into the games that could never have been done last gen. You couldn't keep the "core gameplay and overall design" for games like Gears or Modern Warfare or Bioshock on the last gen. Otherwise you could argue they could have made (a very bad) dead rising with the dynasty warriors engine.

As far as controlling the games... besides the Wii, the consoles pretty much have the exact same controller as last gen.
Old 10-01-09, 01:59 PM
  #25  
Moderator
 
Groucho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 71,383
Received 122 Likes on 84 Posts
Re: Where are the next gen games?

Do people really want full body immersion in their games? Isn't it supposed to be a leisure activity?


Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.