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-   -   A Revolution rumor with some teeth (More 3d stuff) (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/video-game-talk/429022-revolution-rumor-some-teeth-more-3d-stuff.html)

jeffdsmith 07-01-05 05:13 PM

A Revolution rumor with some teeth (More 3d stuff)
 
From the dojo:


Rumor: Nasa, Nintendo, & the Revolution
7/1/2005, 4:03pm Eastern Time

For some time now Nasa has been working on a 3-D visualization system for robotic teleoperations. This system would allow them to conduct holographic displays for future missions and create 3-D autocad diaplys for spacecraft design. However, other companies are interested in this product.

As you probably recall, different sketches have surfaced amongst other rumors, offering up the idea of a full 3-D display that will be possible on the Revolution. The rumor just got more fuel, as one of the aforementioned companies interested in Nasa's project is a undisclosed Japanese firm (who contributed 300,000 dollars to the project) with the intention of finding out whether or not the technology could be applied to gaming experiences.

This Japanese game company, which many (again) suspect to be Nintendo, joins the ranks of the U.S. Army and Ford, who have invested their dollar for medical imaging and autmotive design display purposes, respectively. The following feats have been accomplished by Nasa's 3D display:

* Fabricated and tested a 20 in. X 20 in. holographic screen display
* 3-D objects are displayed up to 20 inches above and 15 inches below display table surface
* Images can be in 24-bit color

You can click here for a rough snapshot of Nasa's setup. If we find out that Nintendo is indeed the Japanese company referred to in Nasa's report, we'll obviously let you know. Be on the lookout for more Revolution news as the year progresses!

joshd2012 07-01-05 08:45 PM

Still is absolute bullshit.

This type of technology is rediculously expensive. Nintendo has already come out and said that the Revolution will cost less than the PS3 and 360. The "revolution" will be in controller design... nothing more.

jiggawhat 07-01-05 11:14 PM

My feeling on the controller thing that Nintendo is developing is that it will have a touch screen where the biggest 'revolution' will be that the buttons will be configurable. Meaning that you can adjust the layout as needed. This is in response to what Howard Fils said when he talked about what kind of controller would be needed to play the games in the Nintendo Library.

TheMadMonk 07-02-05 12:19 AM


"finding out whether or not the technology could be applied to gaming experiences"
I think N has to be farther along in their design/development process than to be putting stakes in a product that may not even be able to be applied to gaming.

outer-edge 07-02-05 12:21 AM

Even if the interested party is Nintendo, I don't see how this could even begin to apply to Revolution. Most likely Nintendo would looking to the far future, not next year.

MasterofDVD 07-02-05 01:01 AM

As stated above these are obviously looooooong term plans.

I may not own a DS but I sure as hell play one when I see the displays in the stores and I applaud their efforts with the touch screen. It should be interesting to see how creative Nintendo can get with new and upcoming advancements in technology.

jeffdsmith 07-02-05 10:14 AM

I don't think it has anything to do with the Revolution either, but I think its hell of cool, and I'm willing to bet it is Nintendo that is involved in this partnership.

Regarding cost, it really does not cost that much to enable this technology. Much lower cost then say, supporting two wide screen HDTV's at 1080P.

Dan Average 07-02-05 09:36 PM


Originally Posted by jiggawhat
My feeling on the controller thing that Nintendo is developing is that it will have a touch screen where the biggest 'revolution' will be that the buttons will be configurable. Meaning that you can adjust the layout as needed. This is in response to what Howard Fils said when he talked about what kind of controller would be needed to play the games in the Nintendo Library.

Iwata's already denied that the Revolution will have a touchscreen.

Michael Corvin 07-04-05 07:05 PM


Originally Posted by jeffdsmith
I don't think it has anything to do with the Revolution either, but I think its hell of cool, and I'm willing to bet it is Nintendo that is involved in this partnership.

Regarding cost, it really does not cost that much to enable this technology. Much lower cost then say, supporting two wide screen HDTV's at 1080P.

I believe the word you are looking for is "hella" cool. :)

I agree with others BUT the article mentions no time frame. For some time now could mean anything from the past 6 months to the past 6 years. If it leans towards 6 years, chances are it could be applied to Revolution. NASA could have this up and running and Nintendo just swoops in recently with contributions to get the rights to use it in gaming.

On the design, Revolution could indeed work. There would have to be some kind of device (controller) to be placed on a tabletop to work(Wi-fi anyone?) That could explain why the box itself is small, all the guts would be in this other device.

Just trying to think outside the box...and hoping Nintendo brings a real Revolution.

jeffdsmith 07-04-05 09:06 PM

No I meant "hell of".





;)

I do like you ideas, not likely but possible. I still fear that nintendo has jack crap is is using smoke and mirrors hoping for some inspiration. :)

Dan Average 07-05-05 12:42 PM

I find it a little hard to believe a decently-sized monitor capable of producing continually updated holographic 3D images in full color would be cheaper than two DVI outputs. DTI has been selling 3D displays for a few years and those retail for upwards of $1,500 for a 15-inch screen (and those aren't even truly holographic, just stereoscopic). The Revolution screen wouldn't have to be that big but you'd still be looking at many hundreds of dollars just for the screen alone. Given that Nintendo has confirmed the Revolution will be VGA-compatible (i.e. you can use it with a computer monitor) I suspect they're sticking with 2D displays for this generation.

jeffdsmith 07-05-05 12:51 PM

The monitor you are looking at right now can produce the 3d imagery that this reasearch entails, that is why it actually holds promise, it uses conventional display units.

Groucho 07-05-05 12:52 PM

This strikes me as obvious over-propoganda of the "Can render Toy Story in real time" variety.

Dan Average 07-05-05 04:33 PM


Originally Posted by jeffdsmith
The monitor you are looking at right now can produce the 3d imagery that this reasearch entails, that is why it actually holds promise, it uses conventional display units.

How? Where are you getting this info? The article quoted in the parent post refers to "a 20 in. X 20 in. holographic screen display," which doesn't sound like a conventional display to me.

The Franchise 07-05-05 04:57 PM

I think Nintendo hs pretty much shot itself in the foot with all this "Revolution" hype. There is no way in hell that the reality can live up to the hype. Nintendo has traditionally been a pretty conservative company and has not relied on bleeding edge technology to survive. I think the "revolution", whatever it ends up being, will be something small and obvious rather than a paradigm shift in gaming. 3D displays and head mounted visors are all pretty much a fan-boy's pipe dream.

Still it's fun to speculate but I think the marketing department may have actually done them a dis-service my promising something revolutionary. I guess it sounded btter than "Evolution" :D

jeffdsmith 07-05-05 05:24 PM

Here's the other speculation around this news:

From IGN:


Revolution Rumor 4

From Nintendo U.S. Patent filed on July 21, 2004

This rumor centers on new technologies that would change the way a gamer actually watches a game. To start, here's a brief intro: a fixation point is whatever a gamer stares at most of the time when playing a game. Thing is, most games feature several of these fixation points, so developers have needed to devise methods of including every object on screen at all times. When this wasn't possible, the display needed to shift and prioritize objects according to the action. Developers accomplished this by zooming the image up or down, to help gamers re-focus their attention. Just look at any number of sports games. The camera invariably follows the soccer ball, baseball or football. The document argues that the constant change in perspective makes playing games tougher than it should.

The patent describes a technology that would prevent a fixation point from moving and prevent the display area from changing in size. Regardless of where a player sits, he (or she) would command a deep view of the happenings on screen. This would also carry over into multiplayer gaming, where multiple players would normally require multiple fixation points. The new set of technologies would eliminate the strain associated with split-screen gaming. In summary, this would all make for excellent game sessions thanks to unparalleled view of the display. Changing the way a gamer watches the action unfold on-screen would be somewhat revolutionary, but again, it's too early to tell exactly how Nintendo plans on using the tech described in the patent. Unless, of course, they already have to some degree...

But that didn't stop anyone from speculating. Once again, rumors seeped into websites and forums. The conjecture pointed at everything from holographic imaging to new methods of image processing where a developer could create hyper realistic vistas at a fraction of the current processing cost. The latter of which alleviates concerns over the rumors that the Revolution will lack the raw processing power of both the PS3 and Xbox 2. If Nintendo has found a way to render realistic imaging at a relatively low processing cost, then it really doesn't matter that the Revolution will lack some of the punch of competing consoles. What matters is that it will stand on equal footing from a graphics stand point. Furthermore, the technologies developed to nix the forever-changing "fixation points" problem will only reinforce the new rendering methods...or so go the rumors.
This idea was reinforced with this "news":

April 25, 2005 - In the middle of last week, the Broken Saint's website posted claims they knew the secret behind Nintendo's upcoming console, codenamed Revolution. Now, if it's one thing the Web isn't short on, it's people claiming they know what drives Nintendo's Revolution. What makes the claim on Broken Saints compelling, however, is that Brooke Burgess, the man behind the site, is actually in a position to know. Or at the very least, in a position where savory strips of information may be floating around, just waiting to be picked up by wary ears.

Well, it looks like Broken Saints has gone and posted its much-anticipated theory on what makes the Nintendo Revolution revolutionary. At the core of the theory sits how Revolution will display games: through a form of real-time 3D projection. That's right folks, along the lines of a classic 50s monster movie. Nintendo itself has stated that what it plans to use on Revolution isn't all that unique, only that it has never been applied to videogames. Taking that into account, plus recent patents filed by Nintendo, and it doesn't sound all that far fetched, argues Burgess.

If that's not enough, he goes on. During the ShoWest film conference, a panel featuring George Lucus, Robert Zemekis, James Cameron, Robert Rodriguez, and a satellite feed from Peter Jackson discuss their plans to integrate cheap digital stereoscopic 3D into major theater chains by 2007. Here's where things get interesting: Burgess claims to know an agent who spoke to Robert Rodriguez, stating they knew of a game machine that would exploit this new wave of 3D entertainment well before Hollywood could jump in on the market.

Burgess goes on to say he spoke to an industry friend about his new theory, to which the industry friend said that Nintendo had shown a real-time 3D add-on for GameCube behind closed doors. When? At last year's Electronic Entertainment Expo in Los Angeles. Furthermore, Burgess claims the Revolution will certainly sport wireless controllers, among other, unknown wireless capabilities. Also, according to Burgess, the Revolution controller will feature either a touch-screen or some form of proprietary PDA device.

As for gyroscopic controllers, the Revolution will indeed use them. Burgess references several inside "sources" who claim they know Revolution controllers will support positional shifts as experienced in Kirby's Tilt 'n' Tumble. Not all games will support the feature, but Burgess states that at least one Revolution launch title will.

This is all speculation, of course, but there you have it.
So you can see how this recent NASA news does have some interesting ramifications based on all the previous buzz from various sources.

jeffdsmith 07-05-05 05:31 PM


Originally Posted by Dan Average
How? Where are you getting this info? The article quoted in the parent post refers to "a 20 in. X 20 in. holographic screen display," which doesn't sound like a conventional display to me.

fWhat follows is from Nintendo's patent:
http://cubemedia.ign.com/cube/image/...7054647245.jpg

http://cubemedia.ign.com/cube/image/...7054646198.jpg

As you can see, that is a normal TV. The real answer to your question lies withing the patent itself which states this type of technology can be employed on conventional sets.

jeffdsmith 07-05-05 05:32 PM


Originally Posted by The Franchise
I think Nintendo hs pretty much shot itself in the foot with all this "Revolution" hype. There is no way in hell that the reality can live up to the hype.

I agree. But I can always hope.

Dan Average 07-05-05 11:12 PM


The real answer to your question lies withing the patent itself which states this type of technology can be employed on conventional sets.
It doesn't state anything of the kind. The patent in question is for a specific method of calculating the camera angle (or "line of sight") in such a way that groups of objects can remain centered within a given display area (i.e., a television screen) even as they move towards or away from each other (as opposed to the traditional method of keeping only a single object -- usually the player character -- centered onscreen). It's an in-game camera system, not some revolutionary new display method. The patent doesn't say a single word about holography or any other form of 3D display, it refers specifically to the Gamecube at several points, and there are clear signs that the camera system described in the patent applies to a 2D display -- for example, figure 14 refers to "display size data" in terms of height and width instead of height, width and depth. I think it's pretty clear the patent has nothing to do with holography or 3D display but IGN has never let facts get in the way of a good rumor.

The Brooke Burgess thing basically boils down to "I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who knows something about the Revolution" so it's barely worth acknowledging, but this is worth pointing out:


If that's not enough, he goes on. During the ShoWest film conference, a panel featuring George Lucus, Robert Zemekis, James Cameron, Robert Rodriguez, and a satellite feed from Peter Jackson discuss their plans to integrate cheap digital stereoscopic 3D into major theater chains by 2007. Here's where things get interesting: Burgess claims to know an agent who spoke to Robert Rodriguez, stating they knew of a game machine that would exploit this new wave of 3D entertainment well before Hollywood could jump in on the market.
Stereoscopy has virtually nothing in common with the display method NASA is working on. The NASA display is holographic and (from what I can tell) projects true 3D images; stereoscopy involves an illusion of 3D using a pair of 2D images. So this doesn't really tie into the NASA thing at all. The Revolution may very well end up supporting stereoscopic imagery, but there's nothing stopping any other console from doing the same so long as the necessary equipment (glasses or an expensive LCD screen with a filter array) is available.

jeffdsmith 07-05-05 11:31 PM

Your absolutely right, I had confused some previous Nintendo patents that involve the use of stereoscopic 3d. Here's the real story on the technology medium to do the display:

A technique for projecting holographic images to make both still and moving three-dimensional displays is undergoing development. Unlike older techniques based on stereoscopy to give the appearance of three-dimensionality, the developmental technique would not involve the use of polarizing goggles, goggles equipped with miniature video cameras, or other visual aids. Unlike in holographic display as practiced until now, visibility of the image would not be restricted to a narrow range of directions about a specified line of sight to a holographic projection plate. Instead, the image would be visible from any side or from the top; that is, from any position with a clear line of sight to the projection apparatus. In other words, the display could be viewed as though it were an ordinary three-dimensional object. The technique has obvious potential value for the entertainment industry, and for military uses like displaying battlefield scenes overlaid on three-dimensional terrain maps.

An essential element of the technique is the use of block of silica aerogel as the display medium. Silica aerogel is an open-cell glass foam with a chemical composition similar to that of quartz and a density as low as about one-tenth that of quartz. The sizes of cell features are of the order of 100 Å. Silica aerogel is a suitable display medium because it is nearly completely transparent, with just enough scattering and reflection to enable the generation of a real image.

The figure illustrates a conceptual application in which a three-dimensional topographical map would be displayed by fusing images projected into a block of silica aerogel from four separate holograms. One could use static holograms to project still images, either alone or in combination with computer-generated holograms to project moving or still images. A computer-generated hologram would be downloaded into a large liquid-crystal, which would be illuminated by a laser projection apparatus to display the holographic image in the aerogel block. For example, the terrain image could be projected from static holograms, while a computer-generated hologram would be used to depict a vehicle moving on the terrain.

This work was done by Frederick Mintz, Tien-Hsin Chao, Peter Tsou, and Nevin Bryant of Caltech for NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory.
The material used:
http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/images/flower_b.gif

Regarding cost from undated article (2003 or earlier):

Cutting costs

The main problem holding up more extensive use of aerogels remains the relatively high cost of production, especially when they require supercritical drying. The alternative is to dry the sol-gel at ambient conditions and use a chemical treatment to modify the surface of the wet gels to prevent them from shrinking. This means changing the hydroxide ions on the surface to a nonreactive form. Until recently, the only way to do this required a complex chemical process that involved solvent exchange—allowing one solvent to diffuse out while another diffused into the aerogel. Because of the process’s inherent slowness, it did not solve the problem of speeding up drying times.

In recent years, many groups have experimented with reactions that simultaneously coat the aerogel surfaces and squeeze the water out by a phase separation mechanism. On the basis of earlier work at Hoechst (Frankfurt, Germany), Sang-Hoon Hyun and colleagues at Yonsei University (Seoul, South Korea) have developed a process involving a series of reactions that lead to the production of an extremely hydrophobic coating on the silica wet gels and the rapid expulsion of water from the gel. The group achieved porosities of up to 94%, and higher values may be possible. The new process not only speeds and makes drying the gels less costly, it also makes use of an economical initial material, water glass (Na2O:SiO2).

If researchers can bring such new processes to commercialization, the cost of aerogels should drop substantially and turn a still somewhat exotic material into one that is in every home.

Michael Corvin 07-06-05 06:31 AM

All of this is probably bs, but could you imagine if Nintendo dropped this bomb on everyone next year? It would probably be harder to develop for but I would think 360 and PS3 would almost be dead in the water. PS3 at least(more of the same). 360 at least has live going for it. I would imagine everyone wanting to get their hands on it.

jeffdsmith 07-06-05 09:25 AM


Originally Posted by Michael Corvin
All of this is probably bs, but could you imagine if Nintendo dropped this bomb on everyone next year? It would probably be harder to develop for but I would think 360 and PS3 would almost be dead in the water. PS3 at least(more of the same). 360 at least has live going for it. I would imagine everyone wanting to get their hands on it.

Perhaps. Maybe I'm just to pesstimistic, but I think a mass majority of gamers would be very skeptical and Nintendo would have to fight very hard to get gamers to even try it. As soon as it were revealed, anti-nintendo fanboys will fill message boards would be filled with their favorite picture:
http://www.ocremix.org/images/systems/virtualboy.jpg

Even if this were real, was cool, and "revolutionized" gaming the PS3 and 360 would still do quite well IMO, I don't think you can stop billion dollar marketing budgets simply with a better product. Besides its not like the PS3 or 360 games would suddenly "suck".

Dan Average 07-06-05 11:49 AM

The Revolution almost definitely isn't supporting any sort of aerogel, since that gets us back to the category of special displays. And as for cost I see no way Nintendo could deliver such a system for less than the price of the PS3 and 360 -- it's not just the cost of the aerogel itself, it's also the cost of the laser and the LCD. And of course such a system would be incompatible with standard TVs and monitors, unless developers actually made two different versions of their game (one for 3D display and one for 2D display), which seems like a real stretch.

At most the Revolution might support some form of stereoscopy, which would be novel but would probably be dismissed by most as a gimmick (and I would be inclined to agree -- stereoscopy is a nice effect, but it's also a very limited one and wouldn't have any real effect on gameplay).

Josh H 07-06-05 12:40 PM

I don't see that happening and honestly hope it doesn't.

Just seems to gimmicky. I'll be fine with a system a little more powerful than the GC with some innovative control. The DS turned me on to touch screen, but I don't think that will work will when your not touching the actually game screen. Gyroscope control is interesting. It certainly works great in WarioWare twisted.

Michael Corvin 07-06-05 03:50 PM


Originally Posted by jeffdsmith
Perhaps. Maybe I'm just to pesstimistic, but I think a mass majority of gamers would be very skeptical and Nintendo would have to fight very hard to get gamers to even try it. As soon as it were revealed, anti-nintendo fanboys will fill message boards would be filled with their favorite picture:
http://www.ocremix.org/images/systems/virtualboy.jpg

Even if this were real, was cool, and "revolutionized" gaming the PS3 and 360 would still do quite well IMO, I don't think you can stop billion dollar marketing budgets simply with a better product. Besides its not like the PS3 or 360 games would suddenly "suck".

No. But all of a sudden it would be, "Why would I spend my $300(?) on a system that plays 3D type games on a 2D screen, when I can spend the same amount to play true 3D games?

Also true about the anti-Nintendo crowd. Nintendo could cure cancer and the anti-Nintendo crowd would find something to bitch about. Why not cure AIDS instead?

jeffdsmith 07-06-05 04:06 PM


Originally Posted by Michael Corvin
Also true about the anti-Nintendo crowd. Nintendo could cure cancer and the anti-Nintendo crowd would find something to bitch about. Why not cure AIDS instead?

:lol:
Thanks for my new signature of the week.

Outlaw 07-06-05 06:59 PM


Originally Posted by Michael Corvin
Also true about the anti-Nintendo crowd. Nintendo could cure cancer and the anti-Nintendo crowd would find something to bitch about. Why not cure AIDS instead?

ahahahah!! rotfl that's great!

jiggawhat 07-06-05 08:31 PM


Originally Posted by Dan Average
Iwata's already denied that the Revolution will have a touchscreen.

then most likely the controller will be configurable with the user being able to move the buttons around or some sort of Transformer type controller.

The Franchise 07-06-05 11:27 PM


Originally Posted by jiggawhat
then most likely the controller will be configurable with the user being able to move the buttons around or some sort of Transformer type controller.

Holy crap! This is legit! The new revolution controller! Mindblowing!

;)

http://www.robot-japan.com/Images4/O...ime-Convoy.jpg

Michael Corvin 07-07-05 07:44 AM


Originally Posted by jeffdsmith
:lol:
Thanks for my new signature of the week.

:lol:

tek2k 07-08-05 01:58 AM


Originally Posted by Michael Corvin
No. But all of a sudden it would be, "Why would I spend my $300(?) on a system that plays 3D type games on a 2D screen, when I can spend the same amount to play true 3D games?

Also true about the anti-Nintendo crowd. Nintendo could cure cancer and the anti-Nintendo crowd would find something to bitch about. Why not cure AIDS instead?

right...

darkside 08-22-05 02:31 PM

Still nothing but rumors flying about, but two major people that have actually seen the Revolution made some interesting comments.

Yuji Naka, creator of Sonic the Hedgehog: "I am under a strict NDA, so I can't really say much. But I have seen the Revolution and I think everyone will be very pleasantly surprised, when Nintendo reveal[s] everything."

Peter Molyneux: "There is a line at the end of the book 'Game Over' and it is: 'Never underestimate Nintendo'. That is all I can say about the controller."

I keep wanting to think the whole "Controller" thing is overblown hype that will amount to nothing, but if people like that are impressed it really has me wondering if Nintendo might pull off something solid with the Revolution.

Now if only Nintendo would stop screwing around and show the thing.

joshd2012 08-22-05 02:33 PM

The line should read, "Never overestimate Nintendo".

PixyJunket 08-22-05 02:49 PM

Wow. :lol: It's almost like clockwork.

joshd2012 08-22-05 03:05 PM


Originally Posted by PixyJunket
Wow. :lol: It's almost like clockwork.

I'm very skeptical that a controler will indeed "revolutionalize gaming". Especially one they are reluctant to show.

Josh H 08-22-05 03:15 PM

If it is revolutionary they would of course be reluctant to show it until MS and Sony are committed to their current designs to keep them from stealing their idea.

I'm skeptical as well, but if anything, their reluctance to show it gives me some hope that it will at least be unique if not revolutionary.

gimmepilotwings 08-22-05 03:16 PM


Originally Posted by PixyJunket
Wow. :lol: It's almost like clockwork.

:lol:

PixyJunket 08-22-05 03:17 PM


Originally Posted by joshd2012
I'm very skeptical that a controler will indeed "revolutionalize gaming". Especially one they are reluctant to show.

It doesn't matter what the controller is, your thoughts on it are pre-determined (and possibly scripted).

darkside 08-22-05 03:42 PM


Originally Posted by PixyJunket
It doesn't matter what the controller is, your thoughts on it are pre-determined (and possibly scripted).

rotfl

joshd2012 08-22-05 04:52 PM


Originally Posted by PixyJunket
It doesn't matter what the controller is, your thoughts on it are pre-determined (and possibly scripted).

I don't see a rant about how Nintendo is the only company that can provide unique games and how Sony and Microsoft are ruining gaming on this page yet. You may want to remind everyone how much you hate the competition in light of these new testimonials.


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