Did PIRACY actually help the PSX 1 ?
06-08-01, 11:13 AM
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It has been said that even with a big copied game market the PSX still kicked arse worldwide
do you think the piracy helped the PSX ?
heaps more people would have bought the PSX and still bought some original games as well as copied games
do you think the piracy helped the PSX ?
heaps more people would have bought the PSX and still bought some original games as well as copied games
06-08-01, 11:15 AM
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Sure it helped Sony. With 200 + games do you know how many memory cards you need? Plus 4 controllers and the acutal console.
Did it help the developers like EA and Capcom, I dont think so.
But if games wernt 80 bucks each then this would be a non issue.
Did it help the developers like EA and Capcom, I dont think so.
But if games wernt 80 bucks each then this would be a non issue.
06-08-01, 11:19 AM
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No, piracy doesn't help anyone. Billions and billions of dollars are lost yearly due to pirates.
06-08-01, 11:54 AM
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Yeah, I think it did. I think a certain amount of piracy helps. It certainly helped Microsoft -- I'm sure everyone here has at least one pirated version of a Microsoft product.
It helps Adobe. They sell Photoshop for $600, and then don't care if everyone pirates it. Why? Because, if I learn to use it instead of Paint Shop Pro, when I find a real job doing graphics work, and they ask me what software I need to do my work, I'll say Photoshop. And, there's their sale. If I jump from job to job, like many people in today's society do today, that's a copy everywhere I go -- it's not like I get to bring it with me. Plus, don't forget word of mouth.
I don't think it's the only thing that sold the PSX, but I think it was a big factor, especially late in it's life when the N64 and Dreamcast were obviously superior.
It helps Adobe. They sell Photoshop for $600, and then don't care if everyone pirates it. Why? Because, if I learn to use it instead of Paint Shop Pro, when I find a real job doing graphics work, and they ask me what software I need to do my work, I'll say Photoshop. And, there's their sale. If I jump from job to job, like many people in today's society do today, that's a copy everywhere I go -- it's not like I get to bring it with me. Plus, don't forget word of mouth.
I don't think it's the only thing that sold the PSX, but I think it was a big factor, especially late in it's life when the N64 and Dreamcast were obviously superior.
06-08-01, 12:19 PM
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IT DOES NOT help anyone!
the last poster mentioned about CPU software priated brings word of mouth.... Uh. even if you didn't have that job at the graphic design place, they will still have the program. Do you actually believe that they hire you based on the only factor that you are a graphic artist?? That is to say that if i wanted to get hired in a editing shop, all i have to do is go in and say i'm an editter, and that I will require Avivd Editting programs or Final cut pro
it doesn't work that way, you HAVE TO KNOW THE PROGRAM before you get hired. they hire you because of what you know. what programs they have installed in there CPU's. they already know what is the top grade stuff. what programs they will need. and they hire you based on if you can operate the machines. So word of mouth is not at all any factor. They sell the programs at that high price in order to prevent priacy. and to make a profit. Word of mouth does nothing if you just hand your friend a copy of the soft ware. Profesional studios do not use programs just from what you tell them is good out there. they know there stuff. they know whats the best program to use for certain things. I was at NAB just a bit ago, and people know there stuff. or else they will not be in buisness any longer.
As for the burning for PSX. well there was soooo many games put into the market that there was to much to choose from, and back then the cost of blank cd's wasn't all that cheap compared to todays average price. So burning wasn't really a big thing for to many games. Many people jumped on it. but there was so many games out there that it would have been impossible for the burners to pump out all the titles. and many of which (capcom and SQUARE) used that copied game protection later on. so it didn't help PSX, but because there was so many games being put out, it couldn't hurt it. meaning the games out numbered what people could burn.
For the DC. burning came in big. and with the price drop of the re-writable cd-r's, DC didn't have much of a chance to protect itself from it. and besides. DC wasn't pumping out 5 games per week like PSX was doing (not all of them were good, but there was plenty for people to choose from) So the people burning did out number the amount of DC games out there. so it was only a matter of time before the burning had an effect on the DC market share. besides. PSX games, you had to buy the first one to copy it. DC, you didn't even have to spend money on any copy, a simple Download and it was yours.
that is what happened. and NO. it did not help it, getting a product for free does not help a system stay alive as you can see from sega's mistake.
-jack
the last poster mentioned about CPU software priated brings word of mouth.... Uh. even if you didn't have that job at the graphic design place, they will still have the program. Do you actually believe that they hire you based on the only factor that you are a graphic artist?? That is to say that if i wanted to get hired in a editing shop, all i have to do is go in and say i'm an editter, and that I will require Avivd Editting programs or Final cut pro
it doesn't work that way, you HAVE TO KNOW THE PROGRAM before you get hired. they hire you because of what you know. what programs they have installed in there CPU's. they already know what is the top grade stuff. what programs they will need. and they hire you based on if you can operate the machines. So word of mouth is not at all any factor. They sell the programs at that high price in order to prevent priacy. and to make a profit. Word of mouth does nothing if you just hand your friend a copy of the soft ware. Profesional studios do not use programs just from what you tell them is good out there. they know there stuff. they know whats the best program to use for certain things. I was at NAB just a bit ago, and people know there stuff. or else they will not be in buisness any longer.As for the burning for PSX. well there was soooo many games put into the market that there was to much to choose from, and back then the cost of blank cd's wasn't all that cheap compared to todays average price. So burning wasn't really a big thing for to many games. Many people jumped on it. but there was so many games out there that it would have been impossible for the burners to pump out all the titles. and many of which (capcom and SQUARE) used that copied game protection later on. so it didn't help PSX, but because there was so many games being put out, it couldn't hurt it. meaning the games out numbered what people could burn.
For the DC. burning came in big. and with the price drop of the re-writable cd-r's, DC didn't have much of a chance to protect itself from it. and besides. DC wasn't pumping out 5 games per week like PSX was doing (not all of them were good, but there was plenty for people to choose from) So the people burning did out number the amount of DC games out there. so it was only a matter of time before the burning had an effect on the DC market share. besides. PSX games, you had to buy the first one to copy it. DC, you didn't even have to spend money on any copy, a simple Download and it was yours.
that is what happened. and NO. it did not help it, getting a product for free does not help a system stay alive as you can see from sega's mistake.
-jack
06-08-01, 02:05 PM
#6
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It certainly doesn't help anyone. Jackskeleton hit most of the points. I have downloaded games that I wanted to try, but wasn't sure of first and 9 times out of 10 I didn't like them. No big deal and I'm only out 35 cents on a CD-R. However, if its something I did end up liking I bought the game. I am about the only person I know that will actually bother to purchase the game. I work with several guys who have never bought any PSX or DC game and they have 200+ titles on CD-R. Hardware sales make little or no profit for the game company. If Pirates cut heavily into sales it just makes things worse. I am hoping the Gamecube design will finally cut out a big percentage of piracy.
06-08-01, 02:17 PM
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"the last poster..." that would be me.
By the way, I thought the question was "did piracy help Sony move PS1 units." I think you'd be hard pressed to say no. The question is not if it made Sony money, though I suspect it did. I also think it caused people to develop for the PS1, because even if you are worried about piracy, you've still got to develop for the platform that has the largest penetration in the marketspace.
I think Sega had other problems than piracy. I'm not saying that piracy is always good, but I think in the right circumstances, and the right amounts, it can be a good thing -- especially when it allows you to move product you would not have been able to move otherwise.
I do know people who did not buy a N64 because they could not pirate the games. Now, maybe you don't want a pirating customer anyway -- but that's one more unit out there, and maybe their friends will come over and play it, and say "wow, I have GOT to get me one of these". Haven't you ever bought a game console, not because it was better, but because it was the one everyone else had? Meaning it was easy to borrow games, and when you brought your games to your friend's houses, it was very likely you'd be able to play them there? I can remember buying a 2600 for precisely that reason. I remember owning a C-64 for the same reason. I'd say the same for the NES and SNES, but those were better systems. I'd say I purchased a PS2 for the same reason, except I have a N64, Dreamcast, and PS1, so that's not saying much.
As far as purchasing photoshop? Granted, I am not a true graphic designer, but I do have a need for a graphics editor in my job. To date I have had five seperate companies purchase the latest version of Photoshop for me. In two others, they had a copy available -- but would have purchased whichever software I said was nessesary to do my job. I routinely compile a list of software that runs about 10 grand whenever I start a new job. I've never been questioned on it, never had to justify it, and quite frankly, I'd be pretty upset if I had to use something other than what I'm used to using. Granted, I can't get them to change something that's company standard, like version control software, but they typically don't care if I use Notepad or Codewarrior (or Photoshop or Microsoft Paint) so long as the quality of my work doesn't suffer.
I also don't understand your comment on the PSX. There was never a game I couldn't copy if I didn't want to. I could usually at least rent it from Blockbuster, and I never had a problem with the marginal copy protection. Keep in mind, the piracy was hard enough to defeat that the causual user was never even going to be exposed to piracy. In the early days, you had to solder a chip onto the system board, something that many people do not have the skill to do. On top of that, you had to have a CD Burner, which most people did not have, and many people still do not have. Now, you can skip the soldering if you don't have the two latest PSXs, but you still have to have one store-bought game to defeat the copy protection. It may not be great for the game developers -- but it is great for Sony, as it allows them to sell a lot more game systems.
You are saying that Sony had a bunch of titles, so because one couldn't burn them all, that they would get purchased? In a round about way, you also say that pirates will not buy what they can just steal. That makes no sense. All the games were copyable, so why go and buy something that I could just copy anyway? My old 2x burner could burn a game in a half-hour, which is how long it would take me just to run to the store. There was never a game I wanted that Blockbuster didn't carry. But, for the record, I did buy a few games, because I thought they were worth the money. The ones I have burned and didn't buy are ones I never would have purchased in the first place. I like them at the free price, but if I could not have pirated them and had to pay only a dollar for them, I still wouldn't have purchased them at all.
The Dreamcast is not a easy system to pirate for either. It's not like you can just rent the game, pop it in your burner and make a CD -- your CD-ROM can't read the disks. As far as I can tell, you have to make a special CD to boot the Dreamcast, just so it can read CD-ROMs, then you have to go find the game you want on USENET, which many people do not know how to use, then burn it to a CD, then place that CD in the Dreamcast.
Dreamcast had other problems besides piracy. It never really gained a big foothold in the market because everyone was so sure that PS2 was going to be so much better. Plus, Sega had been weak for a long time before Dreamcast ever came out. The company itself was directionless and weak. I highly doubt that piracy claimed the Dreamcast. By your rationale, the PSOne should be dead, because it's considerably easier to pirate the games, and yet, they are still selling well, and they just released a new version of it.
[Edited by einTier on 06-08-01 at 12:20 PM]
By the way, I thought the question was "did piracy help Sony move PS1 units." I think you'd be hard pressed to say no. The question is not if it made Sony money, though I suspect it did. I also think it caused people to develop for the PS1, because even if you are worried about piracy, you've still got to develop for the platform that has the largest penetration in the marketspace.
I think Sega had other problems than piracy. I'm not saying that piracy is always good, but I think in the right circumstances, and the right amounts, it can be a good thing -- especially when it allows you to move product you would not have been able to move otherwise.
I do know people who did not buy a N64 because they could not pirate the games. Now, maybe you don't want a pirating customer anyway -- but that's one more unit out there, and maybe their friends will come over and play it, and say "wow, I have GOT to get me one of these". Haven't you ever bought a game console, not because it was better, but because it was the one everyone else had? Meaning it was easy to borrow games, and when you brought your games to your friend's houses, it was very likely you'd be able to play them there? I can remember buying a 2600 for precisely that reason. I remember owning a C-64 for the same reason. I'd say the same for the NES and SNES, but those were better systems. I'd say I purchased a PS2 for the same reason, except I have a N64, Dreamcast, and PS1, so that's not saying much.
As far as purchasing photoshop? Granted, I am not a true graphic designer, but I do have a need for a graphics editor in my job. To date I have had five seperate companies purchase the latest version of Photoshop for me. In two others, they had a copy available -- but would have purchased whichever software I said was nessesary to do my job. I routinely compile a list of software that runs about 10 grand whenever I start a new job. I've never been questioned on it, never had to justify it, and quite frankly, I'd be pretty upset if I had to use something other than what I'm used to using. Granted, I can't get them to change something that's company standard, like version control software, but they typically don't care if I use Notepad or Codewarrior (or Photoshop or Microsoft Paint) so long as the quality of my work doesn't suffer.
I also don't understand your comment on the PSX. There was never a game I couldn't copy if I didn't want to. I could usually at least rent it from Blockbuster, and I never had a problem with the marginal copy protection. Keep in mind, the piracy was hard enough to defeat that the causual user was never even going to be exposed to piracy. In the early days, you had to solder a chip onto the system board, something that many people do not have the skill to do. On top of that, you had to have a CD Burner, which most people did not have, and many people still do not have. Now, you can skip the soldering if you don't have the two latest PSXs, but you still have to have one store-bought game to defeat the copy protection. It may not be great for the game developers -- but it is great for Sony, as it allows them to sell a lot more game systems.
You are saying that Sony had a bunch of titles, so because one couldn't burn them all, that they would get purchased? In a round about way, you also say that pirates will not buy what they can just steal. That makes no sense. All the games were copyable, so why go and buy something that I could just copy anyway? My old 2x burner could burn a game in a half-hour, which is how long it would take me just to run to the store. There was never a game I wanted that Blockbuster didn't carry. But, for the record, I did buy a few games, because I thought they were worth the money. The ones I have burned and didn't buy are ones I never would have purchased in the first place. I like them at the free price, but if I could not have pirated them and had to pay only a dollar for them, I still wouldn't have purchased them at all.
The Dreamcast is not a easy system to pirate for either. It's not like you can just rent the game, pop it in your burner and make a CD -- your CD-ROM can't read the disks. As far as I can tell, you have to make a special CD to boot the Dreamcast, just so it can read CD-ROMs, then you have to go find the game you want on USENET, which many people do not know how to use, then burn it to a CD, then place that CD in the Dreamcast.
Dreamcast had other problems besides piracy. It never really gained a big foothold in the market because everyone was so sure that PS2 was going to be so much better. Plus, Sega had been weak for a long time before Dreamcast ever came out. The company itself was directionless and weak. I highly doubt that piracy claimed the Dreamcast. By your rationale, the PSOne should be dead, because it's considerably easier to pirate the games, and yet, they are still selling well, and they just released a new version of it.
[Edited by einTier on 06-08-01 at 12:20 PM]
06-08-01, 07:02 PM
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Don't take that "the last poster" comment to the heart. I wasn't pointing out anything or bashing or personal attack. just like above mentioned By Kv, The systems alone Do not make the company money. Hell, N64 will be losing money when they release game cube. PS2 is losing money with the amount they are selling for. the company does not make money off the console. in just about every case, they lose money. they make the money off the games. and if those games are being pirated.. it sure as hell doesn't do them any good.
as for the DC boot's If your into them. you know it is very easy to make a self-booting game. and DC was very easy to hack into. while other systems like PS1 and now PS2 need chips or a modification of some sort where you physically had to open up your machine to tweak it. DC all you had to do is get a loader. no internal changes needed to be made.
as for the DC boot's If your into them. you know it is very easy to make a self-booting game. and DC was very easy to hack into. while other systems like PS1 and now PS2 need chips or a modification of some sort where you physically had to open up your machine to tweak it. DC all you had to do is get a loader. no internal changes needed to be made.
06-08-01, 07:25 PM
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Consoles are only sold at a loss during the early years of a platform's lifespan. At launch, the per unit cost of the first million units is astronomical. But, as with anything else in the electronic world, the more you make the cheaper it gets. Not just in a decrease in variable costs, but over the long term, your fixed costs will decrease as well. Trust me, they don't lower the price of the console at retail to match lowered production costs. They only do it when competition forces them to.
It's really difficult to speculate on whether the software piracy was a net positive for Sony. My guess is that it did result in more hardware sales for Sony. I'm hesitant to say it was beneficial to the software publishers, but I am certain that they weren't harmed to as high a degree as they would have everyone believe.
It's really difficult to speculate on whether the software piracy was a net positive for Sony. My guess is that it did result in more hardware sales for Sony. I'm hesitant to say it was beneficial to the software publishers, but I am certain that they weren't harmed to as high a degree as they would have everyone believe.
06-08-01, 07:54 PM
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In my experience, most people who pirate games can't afford to pay $150 a month for only 3 ps2(et al.) games(which they might not even like) If you rent before you buy you are spending another $5 dollars per game bringing it up to $165 for 3 games!!! In MY opinion, most piracy is done by college kids who wouldn't buy the damn game anyway because they can't afford it. So the companies are not even loosing money because this class of people wont buy these games anyway because they can't afford them. Not everyone has mommy and daddy to support them or they are just becoming independent and don't have a lot to spend(which is what most college kids fit into)
On a side note, game companies have been putting out more crappier games than ever. Rushing them and leaving bugs in them. Just another reason while some people pirate games. Who wants to pay for crap when it is free? These are just my opinions.
On a side note, game companies have been putting out more crappier games than ever. Rushing them and leaving bugs in them. Just another reason while some people pirate games. Who wants to pay for crap when it is free? These are just my opinions.
06-08-01, 10:06 PM
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Its obvious it hurts Sony! If it didn't, why does Sony and other companies continue to put anti-pirate technology in their hardware and games?
Look at these sales numbers:
Top Selling games of November 2000:
1. Zelda Majoras Mask (Nintendo) N64
2. Final Fantasy IX (Sony) PSX
source: NPD
http://www.npd.com/corp/content/ie/v...s/c_vg0011.htm
Top Selling Games December 1999:
1. Donkey Kong 64 (Nintendo) N64
2. Gran Turismo 2 (Sony) PSX
source: NPD
http://www.npd.com/corp/content/ie/v...s/c_vg9912.htm
Top Selling Games of November 1998:
1. Zelda: Ocarina of Time (Nintendo) N64
2. WCW/NWO Revenge (THQ) N64
3. Crash Bandicoot Warped (Sony) PSX
4. Metal Gear Solid (Konami) PSX
5. GoldenEye 007 (Nintendo) N64
source: NPD
http://ign64.ign.com/news/6187.html
How can these N64 games, on a user base of 30 million N64 consoles; beat out PSX games that are on a user base of 70 million PSX consoles? Do you think piracy is at work here?
Look at these sales numbers:
Top Selling games of November 2000:
1. Zelda Majoras Mask (Nintendo) N64
2. Final Fantasy IX (Sony) PSX
source: NPD
http://www.npd.com/corp/content/ie/v...s/c_vg0011.htm
Top Selling Games December 1999:
1. Donkey Kong 64 (Nintendo) N64
2. Gran Turismo 2 (Sony) PSX
source: NPD
http://www.npd.com/corp/content/ie/v...s/c_vg9912.htm
Top Selling Games of November 1998:
1. Zelda: Ocarina of Time (Nintendo) N64
2. WCW/NWO Revenge (THQ) N64
3. Crash Bandicoot Warped (Sony) PSX
4. Metal Gear Solid (Konami) PSX
5. GoldenEye 007 (Nintendo) N64
source: NPD
http://ign64.ign.com/news/6187.html
How can these N64 games, on a user base of 30 million N64 consoles; beat out PSX games that are on a user base of 70 million PSX consoles? Do you think piracy is at work here?
06-09-01, 11:01 AM
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Originally posted by CreatureX
How can these N64 games, on a user base of 30 million N64 consoles; beat out PSX games that are on a user base of 70 million PSX consoles? Do you think piracy is at work here?
How can these N64 games, on a user base of 30 million N64 consoles; beat out PSX games that are on a user base of 70 million PSX consoles? Do you think piracy is at work here?
System A has 30 million consoles. System B has 70 million. Piracy in this world doesn't happen. Every gamer buys exactly one game a month. System A has three games released this month. Only one is any good. 20 million gamers buy game A, five million each buy game B or C. System B has ten games released this month. Three of these games are good. Fifteen million gamers buy game A. Fifteen million gamers buy game B. Fifteen million gamers buy game C. Five of the remaining games sell five million copies each, two games don't sell any copies.
Granted that's just hypothetical, but a game for system A outsells any game for system B. How can this be? System B has more consoles!
By the way, I love how you selected your months. Oct 00 has PSX take spots 1-15, except spot 2(Zelda N64) and 10(NFL 2k1 DC). Dec 00 has PSX taking the top four spots. Jan 01 has the top five games going to PSX or PS2, nintendo doesn't ring in until number 6. Feb 01 has a N64 game at number one, but the next eight spots are PS2 or PSX. Almost every month in question for the past two years Playstation occupies over 75% of the top 20 games sold.
I think the reason Sony continues to fight piracy is one, they feel it does threaten their profits. Most victims of piracy believe that every pirated game represents a lost sale -- I can promise you that it does not, I have many pirated games that would never have bought at any price. I also honestly believe that if piracy is too easy, then yes, it will hurt your profits in the long run.
06-09-01, 11:26 AM
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Well, here are the numbers for the ENTIRE YEAR of 2000!
**Top 10 Videogames for the year 2000**:
1)Pokemon Silver(GBC)- Nintendo
2)Pokemon Gold(GBC)- Nintendo
3)Pokemon Stadium(N64)- Nintendo
4)Pokemon Yellow(GBC)- Nintendo
5)Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2(PS)- Activision
6)Tony Hawk's Pro Skater (PS)- Activision
7)Zelda: Majora's Mask(N64)- Nintendo
8)Gran Turismo 2(PS)- Sony
9)Tony Hawk's Pro Skater(N64)- Activision
10)Madden NFL 2001(PS)- Electronic Arts
source: TRST http://www.npd.com/
http://www.dailyradar.com/news/game_news_6637.html
**Top 10 Publishers of 2000**:
publisher (sales)
1)Nintendo ($955,169,820)
2)Electronic Arts ($435,493,079)
3)Activision ($332,803,304)
4)THQ Inc ($262,998,114)
5)Sega ($262,494,552)
6)Sony ($244,438,591)
7)Midway ($135,982,929)
8)Acclaim ($134,503,569)
9)Capcom ($124,124,609)
10)Infogrames Entertainment ($112,687,963)
source: TRST http://www.npd.com/
http://www.dailyradar.com/news/game_news_6632.html
[Edited by CreatureX on 06-09-01 at 12:37 PM]
**Top 10 Videogames for the year 2000**:
1)Pokemon Silver(GBC)- Nintendo
2)Pokemon Gold(GBC)- Nintendo
3)Pokemon Stadium(N64)- Nintendo
4)Pokemon Yellow(GBC)- Nintendo
5)Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2(PS)- Activision
6)Tony Hawk's Pro Skater (PS)- Activision
7)Zelda: Majora's Mask(N64)- Nintendo
8)Gran Turismo 2(PS)- Sony
9)Tony Hawk's Pro Skater(N64)- Activision
10)Madden NFL 2001(PS)- Electronic Arts
source: TRST http://www.npd.com/
http://www.dailyradar.com/news/game_news_6637.html
**Top 10 Publishers of 2000**:
publisher (sales)
1)Nintendo ($955,169,820)
2)Electronic Arts ($435,493,079)
3)Activision ($332,803,304)
4)THQ Inc ($262,998,114)
5)Sega ($262,494,552)
6)Sony ($244,438,591)
7)Midway ($135,982,929)
8)Acclaim ($134,503,569)
9)Capcom ($124,124,609)
10)Infogrames Entertainment ($112,687,963)
source: TRST http://www.npd.com/
http://www.dailyradar.com/news/game_news_6632.html
[Edited by CreatureX on 06-09-01 at 12:37 PM]
06-09-01, 04:51 PM
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You do realize that the top 4 slots go to "Pokemon" and not to "Nintendo". You could stick whatever company's name to those games and they'd still be #1-4 simply by the fact that they've got an entire age range dying for those games.
06-10-01, 02:11 AM
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Most victims of piracy believe that every pirated game represents a lost sale -- I can promise you that it does not, I have many pirated games that would never have bought at any price.
This is the most idiotic argument people use to rationalize stealing. What part of "PIRACY IS ILLEGAL" don't you understand?
06-10-01, 07:03 AM
#17
DVD Talk Legend
Originally posted by Lurker1999
You do realize that the top 4 slots go to "Pokemon" and not to "Nintendo". You could stick whatever company's name to those games and they'd still be #1-4 simply by the fact that they've got an entire age range dying for those games.
You do realize that the top 4 slots go to "Pokemon" and not to "Nintendo". You could stick whatever company's name to those games and they'd still be #1-4 simply by the fact that they've got an entire age range dying for those games.
06-29-01, 08:37 PM
#19
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A bigger question is how much did piracy hurt the Dreamcast? Tons of DVDTalkers on here downloaded their games with pride... some said "well I only buy the games I like and are worth buying" and surprisingly (or not so much) those people went out and bought 4 games probably owning dozens of others illegally.
Getting software illegal? Maybe in high school when you don't have a pot to piss in... but in college, people really ought to take advantage of education discounts. Just today I bought Visual Basic 6.0 and Visual C++ 6.0 for a grand total of 80 dollars.
Getting software illegal? Maybe in high school when you don't have a pot to piss in... but in college, people really ought to take advantage of education discounts. Just today I bought Visual Basic 6.0 and Visual C++ 6.0 for a grand total of 80 dollars.
