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Better Call Saul (S6E01&E02) - Season Premiere - "Wine and Roses" & "Carrot and Stick" - 4/18/22

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Better Call Saul (S6E01&E02) - Season Premiere - "Wine and Roses" & "Carrot and Stick" - 4/18/22

Old 04-19-22, 05:58 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S6E01&E02) - Season Premiere - "Wine and Roses" & "Carrot and Stick" - 4/18/22

Originally Posted by dhmac View Post
That still makes no sense to me because I think all they did was increase the chances that Nacho tells someone about Gus being behind the hit on Lalo.
I was wondering this myself and maybe I'm misremembering - but when Mike set up the second safe, didn't everyone think Lalo was dead? Once they learned Lalo was alive, they had to change plans because then they knew Lalo would want to capture Nacho alive. (I'm guessing when they set the safe up, they figured no one would've been smart enough to capture Nacho without Lalo's direction. They would've just killed him outright.) Yeah I don't know. Now that I type it out, it does sound rather far fetched.
Old 04-19-22, 06:15 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S6E01&E02) - Season Premiere - "Wine and Roses" & "Carrot and Stick" - 4/18/22

Originally Posted by windom View Post
I don't get who was in the shack watching Nacho in his room. Was it one of Mike's guys? Who did Nacho keep talking to on the his phone? It didn't sound like Mike.
That was Gus' guy. It was Victor who paid him and calling him, as proven by Victor calling him immediately after hanging up with Nacho. They were paying him to watch and make sure Nacho was killed vs being captured.

I'm not confused by the setup at all. They planted the location to send everyone to his location. They told him to shoot anyone that came in. It was a two birds one stone situation. They wanted the twins to find him and Nacho to kill the twins while either the twins or other henchman killed Nacho in the process. Eliminated both threats by using them against each other. A big gunfight that takes everyone out.

Not a fullp roof plan by any means. But that was the purpose of the guy watching. To report back if the plan went wrong and they took Nacho alive.
Old 04-19-22, 07:58 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S6E01&E02) - Season Premiere - "Wine and Roses" & "Carrot and Stick" - 4/18/22

Originally Posted by New Lurker View Post
That was Gus' guy. It was Victor who paid him and calling him, as proven by Victor calling him immediately after hanging up with Nacho. They were paying him to watch and make sure Nacho was killed vs being captured.

I'm not confused by the setup at all. They planted the location to send everyone to his location. They told him to shoot anyone that came in. It was a two birds one stone situation. They wanted the twins to find him and Nacho to kill the twins while either the twins or other henchman killed Nacho in the process. Eliminated both threats by using them against each other. A big gunfight that takes everyone out.

Not a fullp roof plan by any means. But that was the purpose of the guy watching. To report back if the plan went wrong and they took Nacho alive.
Yes, that is exactly how I took it as well (and the general consensus on Reddit, at least). Messy, and it didn't work. Lalo being alive really set Gus off, but we already know who lives and dies (for the most part)
Old 04-19-22, 08:32 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S6E01&E02) - Season Premiere - "Wine and Roses" & "Carrot and Stick" - 4/18/22

All this shit going down and then Saul and Kim going out of their way to mess with Harry, who, at this point, is minding his own business. As it stands now, I hope their plan backfires.
Old 04-19-22, 10:55 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S6E01&E02) - Season Premiere - "Wine and Roses" & "Carrot and Stick" - 4/18/22

Originally Posted by windom View Post
I don't get who was in the shack watching Nacho in his room. Was it one of Mike's guys? Who did Nacho keep talking to on the his phone? It didn't sound like Mike.
I thought it was Tyrus he was talking to.
Old 04-20-22, 12:01 AM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S6E01&E02) - Season Premiere - "Wine and Roses" & "Carrot and Stick" - 4/18/22

Originally Posted by bluetoast View Post
All this shit going down and then Saul and Kim going out of their way to mess with Harry, who, at this point, is minding his own business. As it stands now, I hope their plan backfires.
Yeah, the shit they're doing to Harry makes them total assholes. He's not all that bad a guy and doesn't deserve the treatment.
Would be better if they just moved on with their lives already, because I find this part of the show now to be dull. Although I also expect it will come into play and backfire on them - basically teaching them a possibly brutal lesson.
Old 04-20-22, 02:54 AM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S6E01&E02) - Season Premiere - "Wine and Roses" & "Carrot and Stick" - 4/18/22

It is interesting that this is really the first time we aren't rooting for Jimmy/Saul or Kim.
Still a little fuzzy on what they want the Kettleman's to do next. It's not just to be quiet, which is the pretense. We know that for sure.
As he pulls away from the Kettleman's tax place Saul says "Wolves and Sheep" and when Kim asks what did he just say he replies "Nothing". Given how the episode titles are going, that has to be significant.
Wish I could remember all the details of the Kettleman case.

Last edited by Decker; 04-20-22 at 03:00 AM.
Old 04-20-22, 06:34 AM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S6E01&E02) - Season Premiere - "Wine and Roses" & "Carrot and Stick" - 4/18/22

Originally Posted by dhmac View Post
That still makes no sense to me because I think all they did was increase the chances that Nacho tells someone about Gus being behind the hit on Lalo.
Originally Posted by Deftones View Post
Exactly. There seems to be an angle we aren't seeing.
Yeah, the whole plan to eliminate Nacho seems really out of character for Gus. We know that he does not like loose ends, nor vulnerabilities, and it seems like the most sensible plan for Gus to enact would be send someone like Tyrus down there to extract him, put a bullet in the back of his head, and then leave him out in the desert to rot.

Instead, he seems to have relied on an overly complex plan for his enemies to take him out that ultimately backfired. Gus is usually so meticulous, it's strange that he would even want any Salamancas to get close to Nacho. And, of course, they're going to want him to taken alive.
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Old 04-20-22, 09:45 AM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S6E01&E02) - Season Premiere - "Wine and Roses" & "Carrot and Stick" - 4/18/22

As usual, Alan Sepinwall does a remarkable job explaining all the plot threads, motivations and Easter Eggs in his detailed and fantastic episode reviews. Well worth the read, I honestly think I've taken so much more out of BB/BCS because of his writing.
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Old 04-20-22, 10:58 AM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S6E01&E02) - Season Premiere - "Wine and Roses" & "Carrot and Stick" - 4/18/22

Originally Posted by Decker View Post
It is interesting that this is really the first time we aren't rooting for Jimmy/Saul or Kim.
Still a little fuzzy on what they want the Kettleman's to do next. It's not just to be quiet, which is the pretense. We know that for sure.
I think their part of the con is done. I wouldn't expect them to show back up. Kim & Jimmy just wanted a way to confirm to Cliff that Howard really is a coke head. Seeing the coke fall out of the locker wasn't enough. It could have been a worker just stashing it away or something. But now Cliff has previous clients of Howard's also seemingly confirming he's a coke head. These things come in threes so there's probably one more thing they will try and pull off to show Howard as an addict. But all of this is coming off way too forced and heavy handed. So I have a feeling it will all blow up before Cliff turns on Howard.

The Kettleman husband stole 1.6 million from the state with shady accounting. Early Jimmy tried to get them as a customer but they went with HHM. They were Kim's client. Nacho was going to rip them off so Jimmy gave them an anonymous warning so their kids didn't get hurt. They went "camping" and everyone thought they were kidnapped and Nacho was arrested. Jimmy found them in the woods and they had the money with them. They paid off Jimmy to keep quiet. But they were going to plead not guilty even tho they were obviously guilty. Jimmy had Mike break in and steal the money. He then delivered it to the DA without the Kettleman's knowing so they would be forced to take the deal Kim got them. Another instance of Jimmy doing something shady to help out Kim's career.
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Old 04-20-22, 11:32 AM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S6E01&E02) - Season Premiere - "Wine and Roses" & "Carrot and Stick" - 4/18/22

^ Thank you so much for that. I barely remembered any of the Kettleman's storyline besides them being embezzling assholes (and camping out with their kids).
Old 04-20-22, 03:49 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S6E01&E02) - Season Premiere - "Wine and Roses" & "Carrot and Stick" - 4/18/22

I wonder if the choice of leading off the first episode with the song "The Days of Wine and Roses" was a nod in the direction of the Jimmy/Kim relationship. It's the theme song to "The Days of Wine and Roses", Blake Edward's grim 1962 film about alcoholism. For those unfamiliar with the film, it features Jack Lemmon as a drinker who falls in love with Lee Remick, who does not drink. Jack introduces Lee to social drinking and together they eventually descend into full-blown alcoholism. Jack hits rock bottom and he finally gets sober and becomes responsible. At the end Lee refuses to get sober and leaves Jack, desperately looking for her next drink.

Now replace alcohol with Grifting (or whatever you care to call it) ....
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Old 04-20-22, 06:57 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S6E01&E02) - Season Premiere - "Wine and Roses" & "Carrot and Stick" - 4/18/22

I liked the episodes a lot but they were not quite home runs with me. The whole getting Nacho killed thing and the Hamlin thing were a little bit too clever IMO. Gus would have found a more direct and definitive way of taking Nacho out. Like if they can arrange the hotel room and all that just have a guy inside shoot him in the head when he walks in or even better, since Gus sort of needs Nacho dead just shoot him when he opens the gate.

Does anyone feel that BCS Gus is much more sinister and terrifying than he was in BB? "Speak freely" is not something I want to hear from Gus ever.

Mrs Kettleman is a little heavier but still has great boobs.
Old 04-20-22, 10:44 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S6E01&E02) - Season Premiere - "Wine and Roses" & "Carrot and Stick" - 4/18/22

Originally Posted by johnnysd View Post
I liked the episodes a lot but they were not quite home runs with me. The whole getting Nacho killed thing and the Hamlin thing were a little bit too clever IMO. Gus would have found a more direct and definitive way of taking Nacho out. Like if they can arrange the hotel room and all that just have a guy inside shoot him in the head when he walks in or even better, since Gus sort of needs Nacho dead just shoot him when he opens the gate.
He's in a war with the Salamancas. He was taking a shot at taking out the twins. It's risky. And it didn't work. But I can see the thought process in it. Nacho is a pawn. The twins are much more valuable and wayyy harder to take out. Had this plan worked it would have been such a reward it validated the risk. Theoretically he would have been Salamanca free. Lalo is alive but pretending to be dead / not a factor. Hector has been neutralized. Tuco is in prison. The twins were the last piece of the puzzle to finishing the war. He had to swing for the fences.

Gus is likely smart enough to realize the Salamoncas already know who is behind the attack on Lalo. Taking Nacho out to prevent him telling them it was Gus is kind of a waste of time. Whether Nacho confirms it or not, they know.

It's literally the exact same plan he used years later. He gave Hank a heads up the twins were coming so a gun fight would break out and it would take everyone out.
Old 04-20-22, 11:12 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S6E01&E02) - Season Premiere - "Wine and Roses" & "Carrot and Stick" - 4/18/22

I thought maybe Mike did the safe thing on his own as a way to force Gus to let him help get Nacho out of Mexico. It was risky, but either way Nacho was probably fucked, so Mike took the chance. Now that Salamanca's guys are on Nacho's tail, Gus will want to get him back before he gets captured and squeals. At least that was my take on it.
Old 04-21-22, 02:13 AM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S6E01&E02) - Season Premiere - "Wine and Roses" & "Carrot and Stick" - 4/18/22

Very cool Peter Gould interview here.
Be warned though : It does go over that same big potential spoiler that was discussed in the last episode thread and announced by Gould and Gilligan at the premiere.
Old 04-21-22, 11:43 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S6E01&E02) - Season Premiere - "Wine and Roses" & "Carrot and Stick" - 4/18/22

Originally Posted by New Lurker View Post
He's in a war with the Salamancas. He was taking a shot at taking out the twins. It's risky. And it didn't work. But I can see the thought process in it. Nacho is a pawn. The twins are much more valuable and wayyy harder to take out. Had this plan worked it would have been such a reward it validated the risk. Theoretically he would have been Salamanca free. Lalo is alive but pretending to be dead / not a factor. Hector has been neutralized. Tuco is in prison. The twins were the last piece of the puzzle to finishing the war. He had to swing for the fences.

Gus is likely smart enough to realize the Salamoncas already know who is behind the attack on Lalo. Taking Nacho out to prevent him telling them it was Gus is kind of a waste of time. Whether Nacho confirms it or not, they know.

It's literally the exact same plan he used years later. He gave Hank a heads up the twins were coming so a gun fight would break out and it would take everyone out.
Excellent points. I was not thinking about it from that angle but what you said makes a lot of sense.
Old 05-09-22, 05:36 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S6E01&E02) - Season Premiere - "Wine and Roses" & "Carrot and Stick" - 4/18/22

My wife and I just finished bingeing all 5 seasons to start this one. Was a little bummed that season 6 is the only one not to start with the black and white Cinnebon / Gene storyline but my god, there is really not a bad episode in the entire series, and as far as I'm concerned they otherwise stuck the landing with opening season six with these two episodes. This show is just brilliant.

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