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Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

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Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

Old 04-21-20, 11:45 AM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

Originally Posted by B5Erik
Chiming in on the timing of the next/final season...

You know, it used to be shows only had a 5 or 6 month break from the airing of the last episode of a season to the next season's premiere. And that's with shows that usually had 22-23 episodes per season.

There's no legitimate reason why they can't get a 13 episode season ready to go in 12 months, let alone 18. OK, Coronavirus, shutdown, lockdown, blah, blah, blah. OK. 18 months.

But no way do they need 2 YEARS to get the next season on the air. The only reason why it's taken so long between seasons for BCS is because AMC has given them the luxury of not cracking the whip and demanding the show for a certain date. When forced to do it producers and writers were able to come up with much longer seasons much more quickly. And there was a lot of quality TV back then, too. It's just a matter of looking at it like a job, rather than a hobby that pays. The people running BCS have taken as long as they have between seasons because they're working when they want to, on their own schedule, when they feel like it, rather than setting up a schedule to do it like an actual job where you get up every day and go to work (the way producers and writers did it for decades).

The final season will be on by October, 2021. And it will be great.
This isn't really accurate at all. First and foremost, this is cable, not network TV. They don't need to stick with rules that networks set. Second, the break in between Season 3 and 4 was long because AMC didn't renew it until weeks after the finale, so the writer's room wasn't in place. The break between season 4 and 5 was apparently "driven by talent needs, which we would not override if it would result in a worse show."
Old 04-21-20, 12:17 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

Originally Posted by Decker
Do you guys feel that turn by Kim was set up well enough? I know they've played up her enjoyment of the con with Jimmy (never more blatantly than grabbing the tequila stopper out of her drawer last week). But this, wanting to go way farther than Jimmy ever even considered? It just doesn't really sit well with me. Though then ends-justifying-the-means part of her motivation was at least well explained.
I do. absolutely. We all assumed that Kim was inherently good so we thought that it was the influence of Jimmy that was making her interested in the little cons and deceptions that they took party to. But this episode to me was the AHA moment of the series for me where you realize the underneath the sweet interior, Kim is actually worse than Jimmy; she is an incredibly smart drive and manipulative person that at her core is far more cold and calculating than Jimmy. When she stood up to Lalo, the wall she built in herself to shield herself from her inner core and funnel her evil into accomplishing what she wants through traditional "acceptable" paths is destroyed and her true nature is now exposed to get what she wants without any moral boundaries, using PD work to make her feel good about herself.

We just could never get over that initial impression of Kim, but it was wrong.

It is quite a brilliant turn. Saul in BB is pretty hardcore if you think about it. But he does not become that way by revealing his true inner self, he is turned by Kim who is a sociopath at her core. All you needed to see was the laugh at Howard. Without Kim, Jimmy likely would have been happy as a slightly incompetent and morally flexible lawyer. He just wants someone to recognize him. We thought what happened with Chuck was the true Jimmy but really that was isolated to the reaction to his own brother.
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Old 04-21-20, 12:19 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

Originally Posted by dex14
This isn't really accurate at all. First and foremost, this is cable, not network TV. They don't need to stick with rules that networks set. Second, the break in between Season 3 and 4 was long because AMC didn't renew it until weeks after the finale, so the writer's room wasn't in place. The break between season 4 and 5 was apparently "driven by talent needs, which we would not override if it would result in a worse show."
Also wasn't every episode like rally lon this year. It was 10 episodes but it was probably at least 13 or 14 "traditional" episodes long.
Old 04-21-20, 12:25 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

Originally Posted by johnnysd
Also wasn't every episode like rally lon this year. It was 10 episodes but it was probably at least 13 or 14 "traditional" episodes long.
Not particularly. Some were 50-60 without commercials.
Old 04-21-20, 12:26 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

Looking at the ratings, Season 5 has the lowest of any of its season, no quarantine bump at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...isodes#Ratings

This show's popularity is not growing like happened for Breaking Bad.
Old 04-21-20, 12:43 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

Originally Posted by dhmac
Looking at the ratings, Season 5 has the lowest of any of its season, no quarantine bump at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...isodes#Ratings

This show's popularity is not growing like happened for Breaking Bad.
Well the first couple seasons are quite different than BB so a lot would drop off before now. It is really in BB territory now, but it is still not as good as BB was or as unexpected.
Old 04-21-20, 12:43 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

Originally Posted by dhmac
Looking at the ratings, Season 5 has the lowest of any of its season, no quarantine bump at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...isodes#Ratings

This show's popularity is not growing like happened for Breaking Bad.
I wonder where the ratings are all pulled from. Do they also take in account for all the various streaming platforms? Because I know absolutely ZERO people with cable/satellite. Everyone has legitimately ditched it for streaming. Which depending on whether they only account for cable viewers or not.... would really have a big difference in ratings.
Old 04-21-20, 12:44 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

Originally Posted by dhmac
Looking at the ratings, Season 5 has the lowest of any of its season, no quarantine bump at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...isodes#Ratings

This show's popularity is not growing like happened for Breaking Bad.
Much like FX's The Americans, the ratings don't really matter at all. The show gets a full run and all the acclaim it deserves.

I do wonder about that weird Jason Segal/ Sally Field show they are running afterwards. Zero buzz for it obviously, but also having to start whenever BCS finally finishes its episodes.
Old 04-21-20, 12:47 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

Originally Posted by Decker
I do wonder about that weird Jason Segal/ Sally Field show they are running afterwards. Zero buzz for it obviously, but also having to start whenever BCS finally finishes its episodes.
Probably about to visit Feed the Beast and Dietland.
Old 04-21-20, 01:45 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

Originally Posted by dex14
This isn't really accurate at all. First and foremost, this is cable, not network TV. They don't need to stick with rules that networks set. Second, the break in between Season 3 and 4 was long because AMC didn't renew it until weeks after the finale, so the writer's room wasn't in place. The break between season 4 and 5 was apparently "driven by talent needs, which we would not override if it would result in a worse show."
You missed my point.

I'm saying they COULD if they WANTED TO. Most of the TV shows throughout TV history were done on a deadline. And a lot of them were done VERY well. They COULD do BCS just as well with a self-imposed deadline. They choose not to. They work at a much more relaxed (almost lazy) pace, by comparison to the history of network TV shows. They have the talent and ability to do it old school, but they just don't want to.
Old 04-21-20, 01:49 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

Every minute spent writing or in production means one less minute spent at The Ivy or Mr Chow talking about writing and production while paying with other people's money.
Old 04-21-20, 01:50 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

Originally Posted by B5Erik
You missed my point.

I'm saying they COULD if they WANTED TO. Most of the TV shows throughout TV history were done on a deadline. And a lot of them were done VERY well. They COULD do BCS just as well with a self-imposed deadline. They choose not to. They work at a much more relaxed (almost lazy) pace, by comparison to the history of network TV shows. They have the talent and ability to do it old school, but they just don't want to.
I don't even know where to begin with that. They aren't shooting on a soundstage. They are practically making a movie every week. Vince Gilligan shot "Bagman" for 17 days (!) on location in the To'hajiilee Indian Reservation. That isn't laziness, it's meticulous, expensive and ambitious.
Old 04-21-20, 01:52 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

Originally Posted by B5Erik
You missed my point.

I'm saying they COULD if they WANTED TO. Most of the TV shows throughout TV history were done on a deadline. And a lot of them were done VERY well. They COULD do BCS just as well with a self-imposed deadline. They choose not to. They work at a much more relaxed (almost lazy) pace, by comparison to the history of network TV shows. They have the talent and ability to do it old school, but they just don't want to.
And the two examples/reasons I gave as to why the long gaps have nothing to do with the writers not choosing deadlines and having a lack of work ethic.

This isn't The Rockford Files or Rawhide or whatever old timer network TV show that spat out a bunch of filler episodes in between a couple of good ones. I would much rather shows take their time to meticulously craft their story then just pop out a season to make sure it gets on TV in time for prime advertising.
Old 04-21-20, 01:54 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

Come on, you can't tell me they're working hard every day to get the show ready and it takes a year and a half to do 10 episodes. They've got the leeway in scheduling and they take advantage of that.
Old 04-21-20, 02:06 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

Originally Posted by B5Erik
Come on, you can't tell me they're working hard every day to get the show ready and it takes a year and a half to do 10 episodes. They've got the leeway in scheduling and they take advantage of that.
Yes, I can tell you for the third time, the year and half gap didn’t have to do with the production taking their sweet time.

Do shows on cable have a more lenience? Yes. And they are usually better for it.
Old 04-21-20, 02:12 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

Originally Posted by dex14
Yes, I can tell you for the third time, the year and half gap didn’t have to do with the production taking their sweet time.

Do shows on cable have a more lenience? Yes. And they are usually better for it.
The Two Best Arguments for Not Rushing the Next Season of a Cable Show :



Old 04-21-20, 02:15 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

I’ll give you True Detective - Season 2. Definitely forced. Westworld - Season 2 wasn’t rushed, it just wasn’t very good. There was still almost a year and half between seasons on both of them actually.
Old 04-21-20, 02:16 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

This review intercuts clips from the whole season to examine the character journeys of both Jimmy and Kim


Old 04-21-20, 03:23 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

Is there a psychological disorder where you get off on escaping consequences? I suspect that's what Kim's deal is and why she, a 7, is with Jimmy, a 5. Because he feeds her desire for people to get away with stuff they shouldn't. Same with pro-bono cases she wants to help the people get away with whatever they did when they wouldn't have with a public defender. She doesn't feel good helping them because they're poor just that they got away. I bet the 20 cases she took are because she thinks they're guilty with no chance. Over time even that's not enough and she wants to break bad herself more and try to get away with it. Just a theory.
Old 04-21-20, 03:43 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

My only concern with the finale is I feel like it's set up too much to be resolved in a single season. I know season 6 is a little longer, but a lot needs covered and this show likes to move slow. (And there better be more than a 7-minute Gene sequence next year!) A rushed story is a recipe for disaster. I'd feel better with there being two more seasons left, but, then again, this show hasn't disappointed me yet.
Old 04-21-20, 03:46 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

Originally Posted by rennervision
My only concern with the finale is I feel like it's set up too much to be resolved in a single season. I know season 6 is a little longer, but a lot needs covered and this show likes to move slow. (And there better be more than a 7-minute Gene sequence next year!) A rushed story is a recipe for disaster. I'd feel better with there being two more seasons left, but, then again, this show hasn't disappointed me yet.
From the Alan Sepinwall interview with Gould and Gilligan

5 Burning Questions About the ‘Better Call Saul’ Season 5 Finale — Answered


Do Gilligan and Gould know how the series ends?
The co-creators famously don’t plan very far ahead with their storytelling. “We see about three inches down the road at any particular moment,” Gould likes to say. When, for instance, they open a season with Jimmy’s post-Breaking Bad persona, Gene from Cinnabon, in trouble, they joke that figuring out what happens next is something someone else will have to deal with the following year. As Gilligan puts it, “That’s a future Peter problem!”

But while writing Season Five, Gould says, “The fog started to clear slightly about where we were going with all of this. So we started to think about how this all relates to where we’re going. Having said that, I don’t want to say we’ve got it all figured out. I’m very happy to have Vince in the writers room this season, even though we’re doing it remotely, because we’re getting to finish this thing that we started together. But we’re deep in the struggle. Even though we have ideas about where we’re going, we’re always ready to jettison them.”

When it came time to write the Season Five finale, Gould realized that they hadn’t gotten around to a lot of story ideas they had hoped to include. This happens each season, and Gould always reassures himself by saying that they’ll get to them eventually. But for next season, “We have these 13 episodes, and that’s it. There’s no ‘eventually’ anymore.”
Old 04-21-20, 04:32 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

Thinking about Nacho's actions at the end. Once Lalo still being up meant the hit wasn't going to go according to plan, Nacho then should've done nothing given he had no "Abort" option (a surprising screw-up by Gus). He should've just sat there, drinking with Lalo until the hit team either improvised a way in (in which he could've played innocent) or canceled their hit and left.
Old 04-21-20, 04:35 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

Originally Posted by johnnysd
Well the first couple seasons are quite different than BB so a lot would drop off before now. It is really in BB territory now, but it is still not as good as BB was or as unexpected.
So many people I know that loved BB just couldn't get into Saul and despite me saying it's not the same show now they won't go back.

You can count me in with the people that think BCS is every bit as good as BB and has the potential to eclipse it with the final season.
Old 04-21-20, 06:01 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

In the big moment for Jimmy and Kim in the season finale, Jimmy and Kim joke around about seeking revenge on Howard, and then Kim makes her bold proposition, which ends with Jimmy telling her that she wouldn’t make that leap go through with such a plan. There’s an ominous tone in the air when she answers, “Wouldn’t I?” What was your first reaction when you read those words or heard them from Peter [Gould, the show’s co-creator]?

SEEHORN: My first reaction was going to Bob and tell him, “We need to call Peter and say that we need rehearsal.” [Laughs] It's a lot to navigate those moments! A lot.

ODENKIRK: Yeah, it's a very strange moment. The reason it works for me is because we started this project [to explore the question] “Who is the person behind Saul Goodman?” and give him a logic for why he becomes Saul Goodman. They've done that, and it's very well established, and in fact, we see that to a great extent, he’s Saul Goodman at work and that's what he was on Breaking Bad. We found it. How he gets into [the] particular moment that he's in in Breaking Bad, we still don't know, but really we know why he's become the person that we recognize from Breaking Bad.

So the show is really mutated into the question of “Who is Kim Wexler?” This really important person in his life who is very smart, very capable, and lives by a strong ethical code most of the time, with these little moments that we see where she breaks that code and slides around and does what she wants for a hoot or for a thrill. That's the real mystery that we have. And that moment is the ultra-mysterious moment of all that we've seen. In this little conversation they have in bed and they're imagining ways to torture Howard Hamlin — I don't know about you guys, but when that scene started, I think she's playing along with Jimmy just to share something with him, just to be on the same page as him. And then we sort of aren't sure if she is more serious than he is about torturing and hurting this person who doesn't deserve it. I guess because these moments we've seen her have this slippery ethical scale in the past, and now we see her almost more fully committing to being duplicitous and maybe even evil. They've set up, I guess, she could be that.

So one way to look at the moment is she's just playing along with Jimmy to try to be on the same page as him emotionally. Another way to look at it is… maybe she's crazier than he is. [Both laugh] And she's just been waiting for some moment or some frustration to build inside or to show how intensely nutso she is. We’ll see! [Laughs]

SEEHORN: Bob’s right. It’s all of those things. When I say we asked for rehearsal, it’s because it's a lot. And Peter Gould and Ariel Levine wrote this great script, and then Peter, as a showrunner and as a director, is so not just tolerant but encouraging of playing the moments that are open to interpretation. And not just in a gimmicky cliffhanger way, but multiple moments throughout the season — throughout the entire series — where you are not being spoon-fed information as to exactly what these people are thinking.

It also makes the people more human. Jimmy and Kim are more human and sometimes even accessible and they're relationship-accessible because people do unpredictable things. I don't yet know the answer to whether this is supposed to be — you know, the questions for the whole series that they've always had: Is this who she always was, and this very controlled persona she has is what she uses to suppress that? I don't think it's that black-and-white, but whether or not she's being sincere or truthful or playing a game or — and I thought there was a third level to it that I talked to Peter about — she's also throwing something back at Jimmy. Throughout the series, she does not like it when people tell her who she is, what she should think, or what she should do, or this whole idea of people are bad for you and you're somehow not making your own choices. You see it in the scene that she has with Howard as well — this people-need-to- tell-me-what's-good-for-me kind of crap. She really doesn't like it. And Jimmy has presented this new persona that she's supposed to deal with, this Saul Goodman. So I do think there's an element of playful and/or angry “I'm really sick of people telling me they know who I am as well. What if I have something else inside me?”

Earlier in the episode, Jimmy had asked her, “Am I bad for you?” And at the end of the episode when he looks stunned by the “Wouldn’t I?” comment and the finger guns, is that question burning in his brain even more? Was he horrified and disappointed in some way by her reaction — in that she’s been the more moral and balancing force in this relationship — and/or is any part of him relieved to learn that maybe they are even more compatible than he imagined?

ODENKIRK: I think he's horrified! [Seehorn laughs] For the first time, Jimmy is expressing what the audience is feeling, which is, “Who is this person?!” And you can obviously see it as playful, but I don't think you should. It’s almost like the rule about pulling a gun. Having her express that level of crazy vindictiveness and willfulness to be cruel — you can't just put that out there and say, “Well, it really was just her just talking.” To the great tribute of the writers, she's always had a dark side and a mystery side to her. Everyone watching has wondered, “Who is she, really? What's her past?” And we saw a little glimpse of it, but we really don't know who she is. Now that, to me, is the mystery of the show that you want sorted out. I think there's two mysteries: Who is she really? And what happens to Gene after all this Breaking Bad stuff happens? He can't stay undercover, hidden, obviously, so what happens to him?

SEEHORN: I've always been attracted to that [Gene] story. I love watching the black-and-white pieces they do about Gene and answering those questions. As far as, “What is really happening in that scene?” in the finale and Jimmy’s reaction to Kim and what Kim’s doing, the “Wouldn’t I?” versus the slight shift in the finger point, [laughs] we did that little couplet of lines and gesture so many times with minute, different modulations. I have to be honest about what I'm playing as an actor, Bob has to be honest about what he's playing as an actor, but we're aware that there is mystery. She's actually purposely obscuring some part of whether or not it's completely truthful. To what level is she playing a game?

And I agree with Bob. I don't think that the writers are ever so manipulative that they're just like, “Oh! She said she was an ax murderer, but she was kidding! Hahaha!” I don't think that they would be that ridiculous. I think that's partially why the writing and the direction and my performance is a bit twisty in that scene where she's not landing on one specific truth ever. But yeah, I thought Bob looked horrified. To tell you the truth, I haven't seen this finale and we shot quite a few different reactions, so I’m like, “I wonder which one it is!” [Laughs]

Peter Gould said it’s one thing to suggest a plan like this, and it’s another to go through with it. Do you think she has in it in her?

ODENKIRK: While she may not go through with it to the letter of what she said, there's something more intense going on there, and that's going to show itself again. And it's going to become something. Because they don't reveal moments like that just to tease the audience.

SEEHORN: Something's there and something is amiss or suppressed or revealing itself…. It's hard for me to say because she's a different person now, but still, she has a conscience. All of the characters are not immovable objects in space, so I get that she's forever evolving and she does have a history of thinking she gets to choose who should receive ill and who shouldn't. [Laughs] Which is a bit of an ego issue, if you ask me, deciding who deserves things and who doesn't. And she has a chip on her shoulder about people she doesn't think make their own way, whether it's the Kevin Wachtels, or the Howard Hamlins in life. These people that didn't make their own way are in her mind stepping on the little people. There's definitely truth to the sentiment and I think they mean to ratchet it up.
https://ew.com/tv/better-call-saul-s...k-rhea-seehorn
Old 04-21-20, 06:24 PM
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Re: Better Call Saul (S5E10) -- Season Finale -- "Something Unforgivable" -- 4/20/20

Originally Posted by dex14
Yes, I can tell you for the third time, the year and half gap didn’t have to do with the production taking their sweet time.

Do shows on cable have a more lenience? Yes. And they are usually better for it.

What I'm saying is that they could have come up with this season and had it turn out just as good if they had self-imposed a 12 month deadline. That would have given them twice as long as network shows have to do twice as many episodes.

Now, could they have done as well in 5 months, like network shows have? Maybe, maybe not, but there is no way you can tell me they spent as much time per day on this thing as network show writers and producers do.

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