Game of Thrones (S7E06) -- "Beyond the Wall" -- 8/20/17 -- 75 min episode
08-24-17, 05:20 PM
#376
Re: Game of Thrones (S7E06) -- "Beyond the Wall" -- 8/20/17 -- 75 min episode
Book readers - do the books have more stuff relating to Benjen and his relationship with Jon? I know he's still "beyond the wall" and unaccounted for, but he always seemed like a cool motherfucker.
08-24-17, 09:02 PM
#378
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Game of Thrones (S7E06) -- "Beyond the Wall" -- 8/20/17 -- 75 min episode
08-24-17, 09:03 PM
#379
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Game of Thrones (S7E06) -- "Beyond the Wall" -- 8/20/17 -- 75 min episode
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08-24-17, 09:52 PM
#380
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08-24-17, 10:54 PM
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08-24-17, 11:13 PM
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08-25-17, 05:42 AM
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08-25-17, 10:06 AM
#384
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Re: Game of Thrones (S7E06) -- "Beyond the Wall" -- 8/20/17 -- 75 min episode
I have despised the last two episodes of this show.
What the show used to be about:
1. People acting in understandable and reasonable ways that seem right at the time who still get in trouble because the world isn't fair.
2. Actions having consequences, often that took multiple seasons to play out.
3. Subverting expectations. The show delighted in destroying tropes.
4. Characters with depth and self-contradictions.
5. A world with strong rules and some sort of basis in reality. Strong people die of infection. Trips take a long time. Practical concerns like food are critical.
What the show is about now:
1. We are going to hit these plot points no matter what. Forget logic. Forget depth. We need these seven people to go north of the wall so there they go. We need Sansa to be an uber-bitch to Brienne so here we go. We need the Ironborn to have a thousand ships so here we go.
2. Zombies and dragons are sure cool, aren't they? Here's some more spectacle for the sake of spectacle. We're going to "put every dollar on the screen" if it kills us.
3. Every character trait we spent years teaching you? Yeah, forget all of that. Tyrion is now a moron because that's what the plot demands. Jon is now a one-note action hero because that's what the plot demands. Cersei is suddenly a tactical genius because that's what the plot demands. Arya is now threatening family members because that's what the plot demands.
4. Forget the rules of this world. Vast distances can be crossed in seconds. Characters survive because the writers want them to, despite their own stupid actions. The telegraphed "cliffhangers" or so trope-y that no one buys them. The forced romance between Jon and Dany is instantaneous and "makes sense" for the plot to proceed.
5. Trope city. Star crossed lovers meeting cute. Redshirts. Littlefinger manipulating in only the most obvious ways. Also, nothing makes sense. Bran knows everything but no one asks him anything. The Red Priests and Priestesses have been dealt with as reincarnation would be inconvenient at this point. Characters emerging from un-survivable fates in deep water, never seen that before have we. Etc.
What the show used to be about:
1. People acting in understandable and reasonable ways that seem right at the time who still get in trouble because the world isn't fair.
2. Actions having consequences, often that took multiple seasons to play out.
3. Subverting expectations. The show delighted in destroying tropes.
4. Characters with depth and self-contradictions.
5. A world with strong rules and some sort of basis in reality. Strong people die of infection. Trips take a long time. Practical concerns like food are critical.
What the show is about now:
1. We are going to hit these plot points no matter what. Forget logic. Forget depth. We need these seven people to go north of the wall so there they go. We need Sansa to be an uber-bitch to Brienne so here we go. We need the Ironborn to have a thousand ships so here we go.
2. Zombies and dragons are sure cool, aren't they? Here's some more spectacle for the sake of spectacle. We're going to "put every dollar on the screen" if it kills us.
3. Every character trait we spent years teaching you? Yeah, forget all of that. Tyrion is now a moron because that's what the plot demands. Jon is now a one-note action hero because that's what the plot demands. Cersei is suddenly a tactical genius because that's what the plot demands. Arya is now threatening family members because that's what the plot demands.
4. Forget the rules of this world. Vast distances can be crossed in seconds. Characters survive because the writers want them to, despite their own stupid actions. The telegraphed "cliffhangers" or so trope-y that no one buys them. The forced romance between Jon and Dany is instantaneous and "makes sense" for the plot to proceed.
5. Trope city. Star crossed lovers meeting cute. Redshirts. Littlefinger manipulating in only the most obvious ways. Also, nothing makes sense. Bran knows everything but no one asks him anything. The Red Priests and Priestesses have been dealt with as reincarnation would be inconvenient at this point. Characters emerging from un-survivable fates in deep water, never seen that before have we. Etc.
Last edited by Hiro11; 08-25-17 at 10:12 AM.
08-25-17, 10:28 AM
#386
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Re: Game of Thrones (S7E06) -- "Beyond the Wall" -- 8/20/17 -- 75 min episode
The fast travel has finally been explained! http://io9.gizmodo.com/we-finally-kn...ium=socialflow
08-25-17, 12:03 PM
#387
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08-25-17, 01:44 PM
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Re: Game of Thrones (S7E06) -- "Beyond the Wall" -- 8/20/17 -- 75 min episode
I haven't read the books, so I don't know if it's covered in more detail there, but I don't see Bran as "knowing everything." He's not omniscient. From what we've seen on the show, he gets flashes. Over time, he gets more flashes, and thus has a better understanding of the past and present. I don't believe he has been shown to see the future. After all, he did tell Arya he thought she'd go to King's Landing, and he only mentioned the past and present when describing his abilities to Sansa.
Given his abilities, he'd definitely be someone you'd want to have more than a passing conversation with, but it's debatable how that conversation would go. His Bran Stark persona has been greatly buried and he always seems to be thinking of things with greater significance than whatever localized immediate concerns the Starks are concerned with.
Given his abilities, he'd definitely be someone you'd want to have more than a passing conversation with, but it's debatable how that conversation would go. His Bran Stark persona has been greatly buried and he always seems to be thinking of things with greater significance than whatever localized immediate concerns the Starks are concerned with.
08-25-17, 07:32 PM
#389
Re: Game of Thrones (S7E06) -- "Beyond the Wall" -- 8/20/17 -- 75 min episode
I have despised the last two episodes of this show.
What the show used to be about:
1. People acting in understandable and reasonable ways that seem right at the time who still get in trouble because the world isn't fair.
2. Actions having consequences, often that took multiple seasons to play out.
3. Subverting expectations. The show delighted in destroying tropes.
4. Characters with depth and self-contradictions.
5. A world with strong rules and some sort of basis in reality. Strong people die of infection. Trips take a long time. Practical concerns like food are critical.
What the show is about now:
1. We are going to hit these plot points no matter what. Forget logic. Forget depth. We need these seven people to go north of the wall so there they go. We need Sansa to be an uber-bitch to Brienne so here we go. We need the Ironborn to have a thousand ships so here we go.
2. Zombies and dragons are sure cool, aren't they? Here's some more spectacle for the sake of spectacle. We're going to "put every dollar on the screen" if it kills us.
3. Every character trait we spent years teaching you? Yeah, forget all of that. Tyrion is now a moron because that's what the plot demands. Jon is now a one-note action hero because that's what the plot demands. Cersei is suddenly a tactical genius because that's what the plot demands. Arya is now threatening family members because that's what the plot demands.
4. Forget the rules of this world. Vast distances can be crossed in seconds. Characters survive because the writers want them to, despite their own stupid actions. The telegraphed "cliffhangers" or so trope-y that no one buys them. The forced romance between Jon and Dany is instantaneous and "makes sense" for the plot to proceed.
5. Trope city. Star crossed lovers meeting cute. Redshirts. Littlefinger manipulating in only the most obvious ways. Also, nothing makes sense. Bran knows everything but no one asks him anything. The Red Priests and Priestesses have been dealt with as reincarnation would be inconvenient at this point. Characters emerging from un-survivable fates in deep water, never seen that before have we. Etc.
What the show used to be about:
1. People acting in understandable and reasonable ways that seem right at the time who still get in trouble because the world isn't fair.
2. Actions having consequences, often that took multiple seasons to play out.
3. Subverting expectations. The show delighted in destroying tropes.
4. Characters with depth and self-contradictions.
5. A world with strong rules and some sort of basis in reality. Strong people die of infection. Trips take a long time. Practical concerns like food are critical.
What the show is about now:
1. We are going to hit these plot points no matter what. Forget logic. Forget depth. We need these seven people to go north of the wall so there they go. We need Sansa to be an uber-bitch to Brienne so here we go. We need the Ironborn to have a thousand ships so here we go.
2. Zombies and dragons are sure cool, aren't they? Here's some more spectacle for the sake of spectacle. We're going to "put every dollar on the screen" if it kills us.
3. Every character trait we spent years teaching you? Yeah, forget all of that. Tyrion is now a moron because that's what the plot demands. Jon is now a one-note action hero because that's what the plot demands. Cersei is suddenly a tactical genius because that's what the plot demands. Arya is now threatening family members because that's what the plot demands.
4. Forget the rules of this world. Vast distances can be crossed in seconds. Characters survive because the writers want them to, despite their own stupid actions. The telegraphed "cliffhangers" or so trope-y that no one buys them. The forced romance between Jon and Dany is instantaneous and "makes sense" for the plot to proceed.
5. Trope city. Star crossed lovers meeting cute. Redshirts. Littlefinger manipulating in only the most obvious ways. Also, nothing makes sense. Bran knows everything but no one asks him anything. The Red Priests and Priestesses have been dealt with as reincarnation would be inconvenient at this point. Characters emerging from un-survivable fates in deep water, never seen that before have we. Etc.
08-25-17, 07:39 PM
#390
Re: Game of Thrones (S7E06) -- "Beyond the Wall" -- 8/20/17 -- 75 min episode
Like Draven, I have. I re-read all the books in a series when a new one comes out. An exception: When the final Fitz & Fool Robin Hobb book came out, I only re-read the most recent 6 books. I didn't have the energy for 14 or whatever again, since I'd just done it a couple of years prior.
Now of course when Feast was announced, Dragons was essentially supposed to already be done, it was just too big to publish....only took 5 more years to come out.
08-26-17, 03:22 PM
#391
DVD Talk Hero - 2023 TOTY Award Winner
Re: Game of Thrones (S7E06) -- "Beyond the Wall" -- 8/20/17 -- 75 min episode
The Alt-Shift-X on ep6. As with last week, he had some serious concerns and criticisms. He also did a better job of pointing out just how illogical Arya's behavior has been:
08-26-17, 03:39 PM
#392
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Re: Game of Thrones (S7E06) -- "Beyond the Wall" -- 8/20/17 -- 75 min episode
You touched on something I had been thinking as well. They could have fixed most of these problems with better/more plausible set design and a tiny amount of additional footage. The little island they were standing on was attackable from at least 270 degrees and they were saved by a perfectly-timed giant circle of breaking ice. At the end, they were able to defend themselves from a force 100 times their own size for an extended period of time without any substantial topographic advantage to speak of. Absolute nonsense.
Instead:
Combine this with a more plausible reason why Jon got separated at the end (again, use topography to your advantage here), Then all we would be left with is the ridiculous BenJen coincidence and the ridiculous basis for them being their to begin with and you'd have an episode that did not quite so strongly scream, "Haha! You'll eat any crap I serve you!!" into the face of its audience.
Instead:
- Put them in a more elevated position that was restricted to a single, more easily defended approach
- "save" them with a more plausible ice break
- Imply more passage of time with a small amount of additional footage (them eating a little from their supplies, perhaps melting water, even making a fire, why not?)
Combine this with a more plausible reason why Jon got separated at the end (again, use topography to your advantage here), Then all we would be left with is the ridiculous BenJen coincidence and the ridiculous basis for them being their to begin with and you'd have an episode that did not quite so strongly scream, "Haha! You'll eat any crap I serve you!!" into the face of its audience.
08-26-17, 04:26 PM
#393
DVD Talk Hero - 2023 TOTY Award Winner
Re: Game of Thrones (S7E06) -- "Beyond the Wall" -- 8/20/17 -- 75 min episode
When you just accidentally read a major spoiler for the finale but you are not sure if it is a legitimate spoiler or not.
08-26-17, 05:35 PM
#394
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Re: Game of Thrones (S7E06) -- "Beyond the Wall" -- 8/20/17 -- 75 min episode
Pretty sure the one on the top is Edgar Winter.
08-27-17, 05:47 AM
#395
Banned
Re: Game of Thrones (S7E06) -- "Beyond the Wall" -- 8/20/17 -- 75 min episode
.I don't disagree with your points. However just as the books have become uber complicated and difficult to plot, the show was in the same place. Reality is that to continue the same level of depth probably would have required 4 or more seasons. The showrunners did not want to do it, and the contracts just to keep the cast for that long would probably have been impossible.
Consider that things have been aligning for final confrontations for the past couple of seasons while some major characters have been jettisoned in GoT tradition. That left 15 episodes (some running more than an hour) to conclude the saga. Epic movies with multiple characters have told large-scale stories in 4 hours of less...including introduction of characters & story lines. One would think that 16 hours or more of running time would be sufficient to tie up loose ends in a way that doesn't denigrate the essence of ASOI&F. The audience who bought into this journey (book readers and non-readers alike) did so because GoT was different from the typical "action spectacle fantasy show." There simply isn't any explanation...and worse, any need...for so many outlandishly stupid things to have happened that (to quote Hiro) have moved the show into "Trope City" territory.
The fact that many are so disappointed is a tribute to the initial genius of the saga in creating plausible situations out of an implausible setting and memorable, endearing characters in whom the audience became invested. People aren't complaining because they just like to grip...it's because they care so much and wanted the show to maintain its previous standards.
I believe the showrunners had ample opportunity and time to finish things up in a way that would accomplish that task and satisfy all without leaving a bad taste in the mouths of the most passionate, loyal fans.
Hopefully, the next season will rectify some of the problems and end in a way that returns to past glory and cements the GoT legacy instead of limping flaccidly to a pat ending.
08-27-17, 05:57 PM
#396
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Re: Game of Thrones (S7E06) -- "Beyond the Wall" -- 8/20/17 -- 75 min episode
watching this again to prep for tonight. that little humor, especially by The Hound, was great. never really see that. except from Tyrion from time to time...
08-28-17, 03:52 PM
#397
Banned by request
Re: Game of Thrones (S7E06) -- "Beyond the Wall" -- 8/20/17 -- 75 min episode
I wasn't able to catch this last week, so I did a double feature of this and the finale.
Man, what a complete and utter shit episode. The show runners have really gotten lazy. TWO deus ex machinas in the same sequence?? And Benjen's just like "Hey nephew" and bounces?
Jon Snow is the most annoying fucking character, in that he always makes the dumbest decisions and it never hurts him. There is no tension or drama when he's on screen.
Fuck, at this point I'm just watching it because I've invested enough time in it that I want to see it end. The show was good but I think it's a huge stretch to call it one of the best shows ever, and episodes like this and episode five drag it down further.
Man, what a complete and utter shit episode. The show runners have really gotten lazy. TWO deus ex machinas in the same sequence?? And Benjen's just like "Hey nephew" and bounces?
Jon Snow is the most annoying fucking character, in that he always makes the dumbest decisions and it never hurts him. There is no tension or drama when he's on screen.
Fuck, at this point I'm just watching it because I've invested enough time in it that I want to see it end. The show was good but I think it's a huge stretch to call it one of the best shows ever, and episodes like this and episode five drag it down further.
08-29-17, 11:26 AM
#398
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Re: Game of Thrones (S7E06) -- "Beyond the Wall" -- 8/20/17 -- 75 min episode
08-29-17, 11:45 AM
#399
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Re: Game of Thrones (S7E06) -- "Beyond the Wall" -- 8/20/17 -- 75 min episode
It's the most incredible TV spectacle ever. But if "best show ever" requires good tight writing throughout a series, it clearly ain't there.
08-29-17, 11:47 AM
#400
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Re: Game of Thrones (S7E06) -- "Beyond the Wall" -- 8/20/17 -- 75 min episode
It's probably one of my favorite shows ever. Best obviously has some different connotations to it.