fumanstan

That's not the reason people are bitching, and I don't think that's what people want to see at all. I think it's been discussed pretty in depth on why this particular episode is standing out more then others, even in this very season.

I understand the "it's entertaining, get over it" crowd, but it's weird how defensive the stance is against those of us who are bothered by such things.

I thought that was kind of funny to see, but let it slide. Which goes to show that some people with a few specific complaints aren't just a bunch of haters

Giantrobo

DthRdrX

Seeing the Hound make it to the boat at the end makes me think we are going to get Cleganebowl. It also made me think about Cersei's book prophecy.

Is there any reason everyone thinks that the little brother is Jamie or Tyrion? Jamie doesn't even have two hands anymore. Could it be the Hound instead?

DVD Josh

It's the 24 explanation - do we want to see an entire episode of people stting in traffic or in a car? No, it kills the storyline. I think they showed that the group had been on the island for awhile. The ice refroze and they looked really weary, cold and hungry.

fumanstan

I guess it's a matter of taking it literally. I think it would be really disappointing for the Hound to be the one that kills Cersei. I think it would really need to be Arya, Tyrion, or Jamie to be satisfying for me.

DVD Josh

I feel like people should have a bigger complaint about Deux Ex Benjen.

bluetoast

How long until we get some meme about the complainers (represented by Gendry) and the Hound.

"Stop bitching."
"I'm not bi-"
"Your mouth is open and you're complaining about how we got here so fast."

DVD Josh

I would watch a buddy sitcom with Tormund and the Hound.

DVD Josh

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/j_TYCbemm7s?ecver=1" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Greatest exchange in the history of the show.

creekdipper

IMO, this was a really, really weak episode. Hopefully, not a harbinger of the rest of the series, but not a good sign following last week.

Time travel doesn't bother me, although there are lots of other eye-roll moments ...the obligatory "Red Jerkins" to sacrifice; Arya-Sansa nonsense; last-minute saves...not once but twice (first Dany, then Benjin); failure of Dany to use dragons against Night King; manipulative, logic-defying details that exist only to move plot points along, and other problems).

The biggest problem for me wasn't all of those things. We saw that with the Jamie & Bronn Go To Dorne episodes which were only an excuse to off Myrcella.

IMO, the worst part was the incredibly lame, boring dialogue. Whether Jon & Dany, Tyrion & Dany, or Sansa & Arya, the exchanges were just boring. I used to hate when episodes were over; now I'm catching myself looking at the clock and nearly hoping they'll get on with it. It's just a pale imitation of what drew people to GoT in the first place.

GRRM's strong suit was surprising plot twists, tightly-interwoven stories that were individually interesting, and (perhaps most of all) stunning dialogue. There was almost nothing in this episode that came close to the cleverly-written, addictive dialogue from the books and early seasons. I even found the Hound-Tormund exchanges (except for the Brienne discussion) to be forced and anachronistic.

I don't think this is nit-picking. It's a criticism of the main elements that made the show great. There is too much last-minute saves (or resurrections) of main characters that strains credibility to its limits (as one person famously said, "This didn't just require you to suspend disbelief. This took it behind the barn and shot it."). But good plot points would still be diminished by weak dialogue.

The last thing I ever expected of GoT was for it to become boring.

Decker

Oh I almost forgot :

Jon : "Uncle Benjin, come on"
Benjin : "I can't; there isn't time"
Jon : "What? I'm right here. Seriously, get on the fucking horse!"
Benjin : "No, sadly there isn't time to climb on the horse right in front of me. I must sacrifice myself now"
Jon : "Wait, you've lived North of the Wall for like a decade by yourself and right now you get overwhelmed by zombies?"
Benjin : "My magic lantern that I've been using as a weapon for years is going out right now. Go on without me. Always remember!"

mwbmis

The second part of that prophecy has never been in the show and should probably be behind spoiler tags.

Azor Ahai

I'd say the nonsensical inclusion and riddance of Benjen is an afterthought for most because it comes late and many discerning viewers had already given up on the episode by then.

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jfoobar

So, I just found out that Kit Harrington and Rose Leslie have been a couple since 2012. Apparently I live under a rock.

dave-o

Let me preface my rant with the fact that I still think this show is my all time favorite television show. Even this episode was still better than the vast majority of shows. So take this rant in that context, and I'm sure most of these points have been brought up already. Okay, here I go...this is going to be long. These are put in descending order of nit pickiness, with the last couple being only minor complaints and completely forgivable if they had a well written episode around them. Don't read this if you do not want to be annoyed...

1.) Time and Distance: This show has always played fast and loose with travel times, and normally I can forgive it, because who wants to watch people travel the Kings Road for weeks on end? It has never bothered me before, because it has never been central to the plot. This was different. In this episode the travel time was critical to the plot and it wasn't even remotely realistic.

They walk for what seems a couple of days (with no supplies, I'll get to that in a moment) and when shit hits the fan, Gendry can run back to Eastwatch in mere hours? What the hell? In actuality, it would've taken him at least a day to get back there. Then it would have taken at least several days for a bird to fly all of the way south to Dragonstone. Then it would've taken at least a day or more for a Dragon to fly back. They would've frozen to death or starved for sure by then.

No supplies? How hard would've it been for them to show a few of those red shirts carrying some food and water? This was lazy, stupid writing. Stupid, stupid, stupid. They wanted them north of the wall and they wanted Dany and her dragon up there to save them and make it so the Night King could capture a dragon. There are a thousand better ways they could've made this happen with out treating the viewers like they are idiots.

For example, when they are being chased, have them cross a large frozen river' instead of a lake, and into a cave for safety. Maybe even the same cave where Jon showed off his tongue skills. That would've been a nice callback and they could have set up camp, made a fire, ate, and waited. Everything else could've been the same.

2.) Only Thoros and the red shirts died. Although episode four was my favorite episode of the series, overall, this season and last have suffered from D&W not having source material to go on (and no involvement from GRRM this season at all). In particular these last two episodes have been very weak writing (Jamie and Bronn magically appearing downriver anyone?). This battle is a perfect example. They are being attacked by thousands of wights. Thousands. And only Thoros and a few red shirts die? GRRM would not approve. I don't want any of those guys to die, but to be true to the story, Thormund should've bit the dust. It would have been devastating. But that is why this show was so great. No one (except Dany and Jon) was safe. Now? Ugh...

3.) They have ruined Tyrion. The most redeeming quality of Tyrion has always been his intelligence. This season? They make him a bumbling fool. I mean, what use is he now? I have no problem with them showing him making mistakes, but to think he is not planning a trap for Cersei is just stupid. The whole try and make a pact with Cersei is stupid. They obviously are going to need to remove her from power. They would know that, most of all Tyrion would know that. I really hope he has some tricks up his sleeve.

4.) Arya and Sansa...I love Littlefinger. He may be my favorite character. But this plot thread is just stupid and obviously a distraction to kill some time. What the heck was the point of showing all of those scenes where Arya learns to tell lies and detect lies if she could be this easily played by Littlefinger? Even Sansa was smart enough to not listen to him and fall in his trap (as evidenced by sending Brienne away in spite of him trying to goad her). Does anyone really think Arya wouldn't understand Sansa's position? Does anyone really think she would kill her?

I hate when plots hinge on the fact that people are not sharing simple and important information (Lost used to frustrate me to no end with this crap). All Arya needed to say was that she got the note from Littlefinger and his plan would be foiled. He's smarter than that and so are Arya and especially Sansa. So are we.

5.) Jon falls in freezing water, in freezing cold temperatures. He would've been frozen in seconds, let alone the day or two (hours?) it took to ride the horse back. I'd be okay with this if they made it seem like he is impervious to ice the way Danny is impervious to fire (ice and fire). In fact, that would've been awesome! Instead they just expected us to be stupid and not care.

Oh yeah, then, once they get him back and get him loaded in the bed. What's the first thing they do to a person who should be frozen to death? Wrap him in blankets? Put him by the fire? Put him in hot water? Nope. They strip him naked and leave him shirtless on the bed. Again, I know the writers wanted to make sure that Danny saw his scars, but really? They couldn't think of a better way to do this? Ugh.

6.) Benjen comes to save the day right on cue and Jon almost dies again! WTF was Benjen doing? Waiting for the right moment? He just happened to be there? I know they wanted the surprise element, but it would've been smarter to show him way off in the distance, hearing the Wight scream, and then riding towards them for awhile. Deux Ex Coldhands has already been used once to save Bran. This was lazy, stupid writing.

Some minor quibbles.... How the hell did Danny find them? It would've taken one line of dialogue to explain that it knows Jon's scent after last week's meet and greet. Boom, done. Seeing those huuuuge chains definitely took me out of the moment. The lack of dragon glass could've also been easily fixed with one shot or line showing them loading some up.

Like I said earlier, I still enjoyed the episode. But this writing is not up to par with this show. The writers clearly had some set pieces and end points they wanted to get to and supplemented good writing with heavy action. These last couple of episodes have me worried that, like another poster postulated, D&W are burnt out after spending 24/7 working on this show for over 8 years. They should've brought some fresh writers in this year. I really hope they take their time writing season 8, as I really hope this lazy writing is only a small bump along the way. I do love the Wight Dragon part. That is going to make the Night King that much more menacing. I also loved the Hound's banter. He stole this episode with every scene he was in.

MikahC

Thanks for that.

You know nothing, jfoobar.

mwbmis

Assuming he's actually dead dead now, it's too bad Joseph Mawle didn't get a chance to work with Jerome Flynn on this after their time on Ripper Street.

Dr. DVD

That reminded me of Kevin Smith's story of trying to write a Superman story for producer Jon Peters, who insisted on having Brainiac fight Polar Bears for no reason other than that it was in the arctic and they're "the most vicious killers in the animal kingdom" . If this series ends with Dany and Jon fighting a giant spider, I'm getting suspicious.


Let me say this:
1) I doubt Martin's A-Team/Wild Bunch/Fellowship or whatever you want to call them would have been these characters in the books. Most likely a couple who haven't even appeared in the books (Strong Belwas and Victarion Greyjoy would be cool) would be involved.
2) The whole men on a mission story would have taken place over the course of a whole book if Martin had written it. Each character would have gotten a POV chapter during the journey.
3) So...I can tolerate the whole time flaws , but I have major issues when a story establishes rules and then breaks them. We were told death could not go beyond the wall by Benjen, but they were apparently able to get the wight on the boat still kicking.

This would all make me more anxious to read more of Martin's books to see how he was doing it, but it appears he's in no rush and we'll never see that end.

DaveyJoe

The bear was likely an homage to the Fist of the First Men battle in book 3 which featured a zombie bear. They never showed the attack in the show, so I never thought we'd see a bear wight. Probably the highlight of last night's episode for me.

creekdipper

Ah...so this last episode was written by Harry Turtledove.

DthRdrX

1. It's been posted in numerous weekly threads since that episode aired without complaint.

2. Could have been dropped because the TV show will go in a different direction.

DthRdrX

The one thing I learned from this episode is that time is passing very quickly, while the Night King's army must move slow as hell.

DaveyJoe

creekdipper

Three other small observations:

1. Wouldn't it have made more sense both logically and from a story standpoint to have had Jon be able to summon Benjin somehow? After all, Benjen would have been the most likely person to lead them to their goal (even more so than the wildlings).

2. Arya's faces looked like some of those cheap rubber masks that they used to advertise in the back of Warren magazines (Creepy, Famous Monsters, Eerie, etc.).

3. Sansa's new catchphrase is "I don't know what you're saying."

dave-o

Those chains don't carry themselves!