Originally Posted by blairwitchfan (Post 13140657)

The eyes are translucent, you're just seeing his hand as it comes up

Originally Posted by Nefarious (Post 13140735)

For those peeved about the Arya & Sansa storyline....here's the popular theory:


Read at your own risk...

Originally Posted by DVD Josh (Post 13140764)

You link is bad.

Originally Posted by dave-o (Post 13140441)

Let me preface my rant with the fact that I still think this show is my all time favorite television show. Even this episode was still better than the vast majority of shows. So take this rant in that context, and I'm sure most of these points have been brought up already. Okay, here I go...this is going to be long. These are put in descending order of nit pickiness, with the last couple being only minor complaints and completely forgivable if they had a well written episode around them. Don't read this if you do not want to be annoyed...

1.) Time and Distance: This show has always played fast and loose with travel times, and normally I can forgive it, because who wants to watch people travel the Kings Road for weeks on end? It has never bothered me before, because it has never been central to the plot. This was different. In this episode the travel time was critical to the plot and it wasn't even remotely realistic.

They walk for what seems a couple of days (with no supplies, I'll get to that in a moment) and when shit hits the fan, Gendry can run back to Eastwatch in mere hours? What the hell? In actuality, it would've taken him at least a day to get back there. Then it would have taken at least several days for a bird to fly all of the way south to Dragonstone. Then it would've taken at least a day or more for a Dragon to fly back. They would've frozen to death or starved for sure by then.

No supplies? How hard would've it been for them to show a few of those red shirts carrying some food and water? This was lazy, stupid writing. Stupid, stupid, stupid. They wanted them north of the wall and they wanted Dany and her dragon up there to save them and make it so the Night King could capture a dragon. There are a thousand better ways they could've made this happen with out treating the viewers like they are idiots.

For example, when they are being chased, have them cross a large frozen river' instead of a lake, and into a cave for safety. Maybe even the same cave where Jon showed off his tongue skills. That would've been a nice callback and they could have set up camp, made a fire, ate, and waited. Everything else could've been the same.

2.) Only Thoros and the red shirts died. Although episode four was my favorite episode of the series, overall, this season and last have suffered from D&W not having source material to go on (and no involvement from GRRM this season at all). In particular these last two episodes have been very weak writing (Jamie and Bronn magically appearing downriver anyone?). This battle is a perfect example. They are being attacked by thousands of wights. Thousands. And only Thoros and a few red shirts die? GRRM would not approve. I don't want any of those guys to die, but to be true to the story, Thormund should've bit the dust. It would have been devastating. But that is why this show was so great. No one (except Dany and Jon) was safe. Now? Ugh...

3.) They have ruined Tyrion. The most redeeming quality of Tyrion has always been his intelligence. This season? They make him a bumbling fool. I mean, what use is he now? I have no problem with them showing him making mistakes, but to think he is not planning a trap for Cersei is just stupid. The whole try and make a pact with Cersei is stupid. They obviously are going to need to remove her from power. They would know that, most of all Tyrion would know that. I really hope he has some tricks up his sleeve.

4.) Arya and Sansa...I love Littlefinger. He may be my favorite character. But this plot thread is just stupid and obviously a distraction to kill some time. What the heck was the point of showing all of those scenes where Arya learns to tell lies and detect lies if she could be this easily played by Littlefinger? Even Sansa was smart enough to not listen to him and fall in his trap (as evidenced by sending Brienne away in spite of him trying to goad her). Does anyone really think Arya wouldn't understand Sansa's position? Does anyone really think she would kill her?

I hate when plots hinge on the fact that people are not sharing simple and important information (Lost used to frustrate me to no end with this crap). All Arya needed to say was that she got the note from Littlefinger and his plan would be foiled. He's smarter than that and so are Arya and especially Sansa. So are we.

5.) Jon falls in freezing water, in freezing cold temperatures. He would've been frozen in seconds, let alone the day or two (hours?) it took to ride the horse back. I'd be okay with this if they made it seem like he is impervious to ice the way Danny is impervious to fire (ice and fire). In fact, that would've been awesome! Instead they just expected us to be stupid and not care.

Oh yeah, then, once they get him back and get him loaded in the bed. What's the first thing they do to a person who should be frozen to death? Wrap him in blankets? Put him by the fire? Put him in hot water? Nope. They strip him naked and leave him shirtless on the bed. Again, I know the writers wanted to make sure that Danny saw his scars, but really? They couldn't think of a better way to do this? Ugh.

6.) Benjen comes to save the day right on cue and Jon almost dies again! WTF was Benjen doing? Waiting for the right moment? He just happened to be there? I know they wanted the surprise element, but it would've been smarter to show him way off in the distance, hearing the Wight scream, and then riding towards them for awhile. Deux Ex Coldhands has already been used once to save Bran. This was lazy, stupid writing.

Some minor quibbles.... How the hell did Danny find them? It would've taken one line of dialogue to explain that it knows Jon's scent after last week's meet and greet. Boom, done. Seeing those huuuuge chains definitely took me out of the moment. The lack of dragon glass could've also been easily fixed with one shot or line showing them loading some up.

Like I said earlier, I still enjoyed the episode. But this writing is not up to par with this show. The writers clearly had some set pieces and end points they wanted to get to and supplemented good writing with heavy action. These last couple of episodes have me worried that, like another poster postulated, D&W are burnt out after spending 24/7 working on this show for over 8 years. They should've brought some fresh writers in this year. I really hope they take their time writing season 8, as I really hope this lazy writing is only a small bump along the way. I do love the Wight Dragon part. That is going to make the Night King that much more menacing. I also loved the Hound's banter. He stole this episode with every scene he was in.

Originally Posted by Nefarious (Post 13140735)

For those peeved about the Arya & Sansa storyline....here's the popular theory:


Read at your own risk...

Originally Posted by Timber (Post 13140797)

I don't care about time or distance but....if we go with the very minimum amount of time it took to get Gendry to the Wall, send the raven, and have Dany fly back we're supposed to believe that the lake didn't refreeze?

Originally Posted by LurkerDan (Post 13140794)

Originally Posted by LurkerDan (Post 13140808)

brutal takedown of the show and what's gone wrong: http://theweek.com/articles/719732/g...paign=facebook

Don't disagree.

Originally Posted by Decker (Post 13140812)

Can't take credit for this particular criticism - they mentioned it on Talk the Thrones : not only are Ravens pretty portable, the Night's Watch always brings several with them on trips North of The Wall. They could have saved a lot of time (and had an additional accomplished fighter with them) had they sent a Raven from the lake rather than have Gendry run through the snow (which, remember, he had never even seen before) back to Eastwatch to request a Raven be sent.

Originally Posted by LurkerDan (Post 13140808)

brutal takedown of the show and what's gone wrong: http://theweek.com/articles/719732/g...paign=facebook

Don't disagree.

Originally Posted by Decker (Post 13140812)

Can't take credit for this particular criticism - they mentioned it on Talk the Thrones : not only are Ravens pretty portable, the Night's Watch always brings several with them on trips North of The Wall. They could have saved a lot of time (and had an additional accomplished fighter with them) had they sent a Raven from the lake rather than have Gendry run through the snow (which, remember, he had never even seen before) back to Eastwatch to request a Raven be sent.

Originally Posted by Giantrobo (Post 13140828)

...But what's MORE DRAMATIC?

Originally Posted by kefrank (Post 13140830)

I largely agree with the spirit of those criticisms, but perhaps not to the degree of extremity that the author expresses. I don't think the show has become terrible, but it hasn't lived up to what it used to be. In particular, this season has been devoid of affecting deaths for key or fan favorite characters. At this point in the season, at least some combination of Jamie, Tormund and Bronn should be dead given the way various things have played out.

Originally Posted by Decker (Post 13140812)

Can't take credit for this particular criticism - they mentioned it on Talk the Thrones : not only are Ravens pretty portable, the Night's Watch always brings several with them on trips North of The Wall. They could have saved a lot of time (and had an additional accomplished fighter with them) had they sent a Raven from the lake rather than have Gendry run through the snow (which, remember, he had never even seen before) back to Eastwatch to request a Raven be sent.

Originally Posted by DaveNinja (Post 13140833)

When the night watch brought ravens north of the wall, they always brought a raven handler as well. Also, john's crew was supposed to be sneaky so they wouldnt want a caged raven yelling "corn!" as they spied on the zombie army.

Theory on the chains: they're carrying them around so they can use them to pull open the door on the wall.

Originally Posted by LurkerDan (Post 13140831)

see, this is why I think the writers have been lazy. There would have been no less drama, Gendry running through the snow and collapsing at the Wall gates didn't add anything; he could have stayed and fought and no drama lost.

Originally Posted by DaveNinja (Post 13140833)

Theory on the chains: they're carrying them around so they can use them to pull open the door on the wall.

Originally Posted by Giantrobo (Post 13140863)

I disagree. It was very dramatic. I would guess most of us thought he as about to die from exhaustion/exposure or be killed by something in the wild. But instead... he, being the fastest of the group, made it.

Originally Posted by jfoobar (Post 13140912)

And this would have worked better if they could have demonstrated that the rest of them were actually there for more than a night or two. With some supplies, they could have survived for quite awhile if they were in a more defensible position. Bad writing, bad exposition, bad set design.



Again, a little exposition (in this case showing that Benjen, or at least some shadowy disconnected figure, is present and observing) is the difference between creating something, in the minds of most of your audience, that seems very fortunate versus something that just seems highly contrived and implausible. Add in the implausibility of:

1. Jon fighting his way away from the dragon, seemingly with deliberation, to begin with.
2. Somehow finding his way back to the surface after we all see him being dragged into the deep.
3. Somehow pulling himself out of the water.
4. Benjen just magically appearing without any pretext.
5. Benjen sacrificing himself, seemingly without any need to do so.
6. Jon making it back to the wall without dying of hypothermia.

Taken as a sum, the whole thing was a contrived mess.

They had better have a home run episode lined up for the season finale or the tone of much of the 12 months of between-season discussion (rumor has it the last season won't air until September, 2018) is going to be quite different than it ever has been.

Originally Posted by T-bone22 (Post 13140902)

Or possibly the Night King came prepared for procuring a dragon. He is possibly a greenseer like Bran, and let that battle play out exactly as it should in order to have the dragons brought to him.

Originally Posted by dex14 (Post 13140919)

Didn't the Three Eye Raven send Benjen to save Bran? Since Bran is now the Three Eye Raven, couldn't he have done the same for Jon? Maybe that will be explained next week.