Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
06-05-17, 05:50 AM
#1
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Thread Starter
Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
I recently finished the final season of Bloodline this weekend, and it got me thinking. I won't give any spoilers away but overall I was underwhelmed by the season and the final episode. It seems to be a problem in Hollywood right now since the Serial Drama has exploded in the past decade. There are so many Serial Drama Final Seasons/Finales that we can all name off the top of our head that just didn't deliver.
I know it's not easy to tie a show up and no one expects every Finale to be great, but it seems the majority of them are just bad, or underwhelming. It's made me question how many shows I really want to continue watching because you feel like you've invested all of this time in the characters and then the writers just end it in a half ass way.
I'd be interested in people thoughts?
I know it's not easy to tie a show up and no one expects every Finale to be great, but it seems the majority of them are just bad, or underwhelming. It's made me question how many shows I really want to continue watching because you feel like you've invested all of this time in the characters and then the writers just end it in a half ass way.
I'd be interested in people thoughts?
06-05-17, 06:52 AM
#2
Re: Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
Many of these shows don't move forward with a clear beginning, middle, end arc to the series. A lot of them are ideas that would be better suited for a film or limited series, and then get stretched out with too many seasons (Prison Break). Some just overstay their welcome (Dexter, SoA... even The Sopranos). Some just meander until people stop caring (The Walking Dead)...
You also need a good writer or show runner who, even if you don't have a clear end game, knows how to effectively tell a story (Vince Gilligan, David Simon, Alan Ball, Aaron Sorkin).
I think Ryan Murphy is a fantastic creator/writer... but most of his shows start off very strong and then crash after a few seasons... some ideas just aren't mean to run 6 or 7 years.
You also need a good writer or show runner who, even if you don't have a clear end game, knows how to effectively tell a story (Vince Gilligan, David Simon, Alan Ball, Aaron Sorkin).
I think Ryan Murphy is a fantastic creator/writer... but most of his shows start off very strong and then crash after a few seasons... some ideas just aren't mean to run 6 or 7 years.
Last edited by dex14; 06-05-17 at 07:02 AM.
06-05-17, 07:33 AM
#3
Re: Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
I also just read this this morning from Damon Lindelof (regarding The Leftovers/Lost):
It touches on something like "the obvious ending", which is what Breaking Bad did... BB finale wasn't anything too out of the box. You pretty much knew how it would end, but the journey to get there was what made it so great.
Lindelof: I think endings in general are difficult, because I do think that our brains, whether we’re actually biologically wired this way, or we’re just conditioned this way, know what the ending of a story feels like. So, you could read the first Harry Potter book and say what you think the ending is going to be—it’s probably going to be Harry kills Voldemort. And, spoiler alert, that’s what you get. A lot of times, endings are just about delivering the inevitable, but feeling like it was a worthwhile journey. When you try to avoid the obvious ending, that’s when you get into more dangerous, risky space. When it comes to a show like Lost, the longer it goes on … every episode, the diving board gets higher and higher. So the ending becomes a burden. Versus The Leftovers, where there were just 28 episodes. That’s just three hours longer than the first season of Lost. So this has a lot to do with what the ending owes. Was I deeply affected by the way Lost ended? Yeah, sure! But when I picked up Tom Perrotta’s book and read it for the first time, that’s why I was attracted to it. That the ending of this novel was so satisfying to me, and it didn’t answer the most profound mystery that it’s presenting, and was so unapologetic about it … that I would be unburdened by all the things Lost was burdened by. If people are coming into The Leftovers finale looking for resolution, or, as you say, to solve for X, I’m kind of like, “What show have you been watching?”
06-05-17, 07:39 AM
#4
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Re: Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
Lindelof's answer is just an excuse. If you don't plan on answering the questions don't bring them up in the first place. I have never written anything and I could probably just keep adding mystery after mystery and then come up with an open ended finale.
Chris Carter catches a lot of shit because of the X-Files. You might not like his answers but at least they are there for the questions raised. Lost and the Leftovers just kept adding new mysteries and didn't even bother answering most of them. And don't give me that "it's the journey" bullshit.
Chris Carter catches a lot of shit because of the X-Files. You might not like his answers but at least they are there for the questions raised. Lost and the Leftovers just kept adding new mysteries and didn't even bother answering most of them. And don't give me that "it's the journey" bullshit.
06-05-17, 07:42 AM
#5
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Thread Starter
Re: Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
I want to walk away from a Series Finale and I want it to force me to look into the mirror and take stock of the show along with the main character and wonder what was the moral/point of the story being told?
06-05-17, 08:16 AM
#6
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Re: Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
My 3 favorite shows that ended the last decade all crushed it in their final seasons - Breaking Bad, Fringe, and Person of Interest. More and more I think showrunners have an idea how the major arcs are going to end.
06-05-17, 08:26 AM
#7
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
A lot of times shows tend to go on far longer than they should. If the show is popular, the network will try to drag it out as much as it can. Eventually the writers will run out of ideas and won't have much in the tank to give a satisfying finale. Dexter is a good example of this.
Hype is another factor. We typically expect a lot out of a series finale. It's not easy to write one that will satisfy everyone since we always expect more out of it. I imagine the writers also expect more out of themselves for the finale too, which can mean they try a little too hard.
Hype is another factor. We typically expect a lot out of a series finale. It's not easy to write one that will satisfy everyone since we always expect more out of it. I imagine the writers also expect more out of themselves for the finale too, which can mean they try a little too hard.
06-05-17, 08:50 AM
#8
Re: Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
The old model was that series only tend to make money after three or four seasons, so there was a profit motive for keeping a show going, even to it's own detriment. I don't know if the current model works like that, with so many series running 10-13 episodes, and more platforms available.
Last edited by DWilson; 06-05-17 at 09:18 AM.
06-05-17, 09:04 AM
#9
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
TV showrunning is really about the art of sacrifice and compromise. Most show runners do have the arc's planned out but when networks and production companies get involved the landing points change dramatically. Couple that with tax rebate incentives, actor contracts, etc and you can see why so many narratives fizzle out instead of going out on top. It's very rare for a show to get to go out on it's own terms. Short of Chuck Lorre or Shonda Rhimes it's almost always a complicated production house to network decision. The other issue is ego. Switching show runners every couple of seasons but maintaining the same executive producers is ideal but doesn't happen enough. Starting up a new project when you have a guaranteed paycheck is hard to accept for a lot of producers which is why so many shows run out of steam around season 3-4.
06-05-17, 09:37 AM
#10
Suspended; also need updated email
Re: Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
Dexter, True Blood, Sopranos, some really dire/disappointing final seasons
Not many shows have blown people away with a final season, Breaking Bad a clear exception
The comments about having a clear plan from Day one are so valid.
Not many shows have blown people away with a final season, Breaking Bad a clear exception
The comments about having a clear plan from Day one are so valid.
06-05-17, 09:48 AM
#11
Banned by request
Re: Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
That's the thing that kills me, how shitty most endings are. But Breaking Bad was great. It makes me wonder when TV shows get pitched, how that is done. I mean, wouldn't they go in with an endgame in mind? Based on how many have had bad endings, I guess not. But with Amazon and Netflix shows popping out left and right, you would think when they get picked up, the studios/networks would have an idea of how long they'd be funding them.
06-05-17, 10:07 AM
#12
Re: Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
I read a lot of showrunner comments following particular episodes of different series and I'm always shocked at how many shows don't even have the particular season they're working on firmly sketched out. The one that comes to mind is "24", -where you'd assume there was a "game plan" for the season based on the very specific concept, -but they would get caught in the middle of the season and not know what they were doing for the next few episodes (the series always got loopy in the middle). That's quite literally how you get the infamous "Kim and the cougar".
06-05-17, 10:19 AM
#13
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
A lot of times shows tend to go on far longer than they should. If the show is popular, the network will try to drag it out as much as it can. Eventually the writers will run out of ideas and won't have much in the tank to give a satisfying finale. Dexter is a good example of this.
06-05-17, 10:34 AM
#14
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
With Dexter, as bad as the last few seasons were I felt like the season 7 finale left them in a place where they had some interesting possibilities for the final season. Instead, they shied away because they felt it would have been too close to season 2. Well, that's fine... but if that's the case don't set up your penultimate season by moving the pieces in place for that type of story then say, "Nah, we've already done that type of story." Especially since, at the end of the finale... they ended at that same spot anyway!!!
06-05-17, 11:41 AM
#15
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Thread Starter
Re: Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
I agree, but it kind of exposes where the priorities are for the writers and networks, as the last thing they really care about is the ending. All they really want is a show that is a hit, and then they will worry about the rest later. Heck most of them only seem to care about the first season, and then they will worry about the rest later. I always figured a writer would take pride in the show they were pitching to the Network having some arc and resolution. I understand that things change and you can deviate from season to season, but just an overall outline of where the shows starts and stops should be mandatory.
06-05-17, 12:39 PM
#16
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Re: Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
Other then Dexter I can't think of another show I watch where I hated the finale. The Lost finale wasn't everything I hoped but I wasn't too bothered by it. The Leftovers finale was fantastic.
06-05-17, 12:54 PM
#17
Re: Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
I hated the HIMYM finale and final season for the most part. A comedy... but it was set up to be somewhat serialized.
06-05-17, 02:05 PM
#18
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Re: Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
The problem with the Lost finale is that Lindelof and Cuse bathed in the attention, and were rock stars at all the cons. They kept telling fans "everything means something", then when it turned it really didn't, they got all uppity when fans called them on it.
I'm almost positive they had the ending for Lost planned, but everyone guessed it early, so they had to punt.
I'm almost positive they had the ending for Lost planned, but everyone guessed it early, so they had to punt.
06-05-17, 02:07 PM
#19
Re: Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
I just wish they would admit it.
Listen, Lost was one of my all time favorite viewing experiences. I didn't hate the finale and final season, but I could understand why people would. And that "it was all about the characters" nonsense (though to a degree true) is a big factor as to why it failed some. They set it up heavy on mystery early on.
Last edited by dex14; 06-05-17 at 02:15 PM.
06-05-17, 02:30 PM
#20
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
Lost had a lot of problems before the finale or even the final season.
Some of it stemmed from the writing, and there were some external factors as well, like the writers' strike or the studio forcing them to fire the three tail section people (two,because of drunk driving arrests, and another because or rumored conflicts with another actor).
But so many of the mysteries they kept crafting just kept fizzling out without any kind of satisfying resolution, and the producers giving the excuse that the series was always about "the characters," was something that most of the audience didn't buy.
Some of it stemmed from the writing, and there were some external factors as well, like the writers' strike or the studio forcing them to fire the three tail section people (two,because of drunk driving arrests, and another because or rumored conflicts with another actor).
But so many of the mysteries they kept crafting just kept fizzling out without any kind of satisfying resolution, and the producers giving the excuse that the series was always about "the characters," was something that most of the audience didn't buy.
06-05-17, 03:34 PM
#21
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
I've explained this before but shows often lose a lot of creative talent behind the camera in their planned final seasons. Writers and producers want steady paychecks each year, so they usually cash in and switch shows right before the final season hits. Everyone wants to work for an ongoing series than a show definitively ending.
This Hollywood process often results in a bunch of junior staffers or mercenaries brought in from the outside to finish up a show's run. Only the showrunner may remain from a series' first couple of seasons by the end. Even showrunners get bored and often delegate out the last season to underlings.
It's a huge reason why final seasons usually disappoint with poor endings.
This Hollywood process often results in a bunch of junior staffers or mercenaries brought in from the outside to finish up a show's run. Only the showrunner may remain from a series' first couple of seasons by the end. Even showrunners get bored and often delegate out the last season to underlings.
It's a huge reason why final seasons usually disappoint with poor endings.
06-05-17, 04:27 PM
#22
Moderator
Re: Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
06-05-17, 04:32 PM
#23
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Re: Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
Bloodline is a bad example. Not only did it receive a cancellation order right as it was starting to film season 3, it also got cut short, from 13 episodes to 10.
I think in today's tv climate, it's tough for any show to deliver with the thought that it could be cancelled at any moment. Bloodline producers were said to have had enough story to run 3 more seasons.
I think in today's tv climate, it's tough for any show to deliver with the thought that it could be cancelled at any moment. Bloodline producers were said to have had enough story to run 3 more seasons.
06-05-17, 05:19 PM
#24
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
I don't recall if they was set up as a series finale "just in case", but throughout its series run Stargate SG-1 had two episodes that have always stuck in my mind as a great series finale. Full Circle (season 6) and Threads (season 8). What their structure had in common was a conclusion to ongoing storylines, including setting up time for characters to have interactions/closure. The final key piece was leaving everybody in a manner as if life goes on and the characters continue their stories past the episode in question.
Star Trek TNG did this too, although it was only an episodic wrap up as that show came before larger series long story telling was the norm.
Point being, I think too many shows feel forced to tie everything up and just fade to black. Even if some of the story resolutions aren't the best, I think taking a different approach to wrapping things up would help.
Star Trek TNG did this too, although it was only an episodic wrap up as that show came before larger series long story telling was the norm.
Point being, I think too many shows feel forced to tie everything up and just fade to black. Even if some of the story resolutions aren't the best, I think taking a different approach to wrapping things up would help.
06-05-17, 05:48 PM
#25
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Do TV writers have a Final Season/Series Finale Problem?
But sure, first seasons are usually well scripted, and then if the series gets picked up there's some idea of what to do, but stuff like network pressure and never knowing when the end is just wears you down and then you jump the shark just treading water. I thought series like Alias and Veronica Mars had close to perfect first seasons, then diminishing returns afterwards with some major tonal shifts.
At least with something like GoT it's more like the British way of doing more with less episodes, plus the plot comes from a series of books (or soon-to-be-written books) and unlike something like the Walking Dead, they are pretty faithfully following them. Not that the ending can't be crap but I'm hopeful.