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-   -   Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/tv-talk/609684-bruce-timm-exits-warner-bros-animation.html)

PhantomStranger 03-31-13 04:11 PM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
Originally Posted by Mike86 (Post 11635446)
I honestly never understood why they were so against using the estabished DC Animated Universe anyways to be honest. Timm and company created a great universe for the DC heroes with shows like Batman: The Animated Series, Superman: The Animated Series, and Justice League/Justice League: Unlimited. To throw them aside and just establish new stuff while I can kind of see why it was done was a bit silly in my opinion. Sure some newer fans might not know all the back stories to all the old episodes unless they went back and watched them but I think it could have been done in a way that established continuity yet was friendly to new fans.
Because the Timmverse is already well established and there aren't as many opportunities for new toy sales if they continued that universe on a new show. Obviously WB wants to get behind some form of a real Justice League cartoon for the possible movie.

boredsilly 03-31-13 04:23 PM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
Don't get me wrong, I adore the Timm version of the DCAU. That pretty much is my definitive version off DC. That universe ran deeper, and was around longer than anyone would have ever imagined. That said, I actually welcomed the new take that we got from Greg Weisman in YJ, and honestly, I would rather see that world go on than see Timm come back. I say that now, but will be on pins and needles if the DCAU proper comes back.

Mike86 03-31-13 04:28 PM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
Originally Posted by PhantomStranger (Post 11635463)
Because the Timmverse is already well established and there aren't as many opportunities for new toy sales if they continued that universe on a new show. Obviously WB wants to get behind some form of a real Justice League cartoon for the possible movie.
I don't really buy the whole not having opportunities for new toy sales thing I guess. If something is released and kids like it parents will buy the toys for their kids. The same people who were buying those toys when the shows originally started probably aren't going to be buying the same toys as a kid would when they're older. Plus toy companies always come up with ways to re-release the same figures (especially for superhero shows) that are just repaints many times of the same mold.

hanshotfirst1138 04-01-13 08:06 AM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
Originally Posted by davidh777 (Post 11633888)
End of an era.
For sure. When you tell me "close your eyes and think of DC," I think of Bruce Timm's stuff. He's the one who got me into comics outright through the show, more any of WB's multimillion dollar movies ever did.

Originally Posted by PhantomStranger (Post 11634143)
What was amazing about Timm is that he intimately understood comic books and the inner workings of superhero stories, from the very beginning.
Totally agree. He and his team "got it."

If Timm walked away because Cartoon Network canceled Green Lantern, I will never watch another program on that channel ever again. If he left for a bigger payday from Marvel or a Hollywood studio, I wish him well.
I haven't watched CN in years, ever since they started showing the live-action stuff. I mostly just lost interest. I didn't need AS anymore since I could get the unedited stuff on Netflix, and they cancelled pretty much every original series I had any interest in.

Originally Posted by Spottedfeather (Post 11634181)
As long as they keep using Kevin Conroy and Tim Daly for the best of the animated movies, I'm all set.
Kevin Conroy is Batman. I can hear other people do other characters even after the DCAU and the live action movies, I can deal with other interpretations. But he will always be the Dark Knight to me.

Originally Posted by hal9000 (Post 11634292)
Three things put Warner Bros. TV animation on a path of destruction...

1. Shooting their load on "The Year of the Green Lantern." Look that quote up. They actually thought The Green Lantern was gonna be HUGE. This was an overall mistake by the entire Warner Bros. company. Hoping to turn a C-list character into the next Iron Man.
Iron Man became a surprise success, but that was the exception to the rule rather than the rule. And it had to do most prominently with RDJ.

2. CGI. Well, wanting to compete with the Lucas' of the world thinking kids actually care about how their animation is made. No, they care about good stories. The actual animation is secondary. Memo to Warners execs, CGI is a waste of fucking money. It's why every other animated series kicked Green Lanterns ass. 2D animation is cheap and fast to produce. This is not to be said about CG. The single episode budget for Green Lantern was 3 to 4 times that of a regular 2D episode. They thought they'd save money overall with pre loading the assets... i.e., all your main characters are designed before you start production... to save costs on having to have a staff artist throughout the entire typical three season run of a show. Well, that didn't work either but I won't go into detail on that.
I've heard about that, apparently the budget for the Green Lantern animated series was huge.

Originally Posted by Dragon Tattoo (Post 11634312)
Where the fuck do you get this crap from? Power Rangers is still one of the most-watched kids shows on TV and Korra was the best-rated kids show last year. In what world does that mean 'kids don't care about action'?
I'm such a hypocrite, I'm always railing against mindless franchising, but I'm happy Power Rangers is still doing well because of my nostalgia :D. Say, how has this season been? Have we seen any of the anniversary guest stars yet? On a tangential note, when does Korra come out on DVD? And when does the second season premiere?

Originally Posted by PhantomStranger (Post 11634648)
Though this new regime might sway me if they could produce a Legion Of Superheroes movie, preferably with Superboy or Supergirl.
I think there was Legion animated series at some point. My understanding is that it was decidedly subpar though. I didn't watch that or The Batman or Batman: The Brave and the Bold or much of any of the other stuff, after the DCAU died, I sort of lost interest.

Originally Posted by boredsilly (Post 11635480)
Don't get me wrong, I adore the Timm version of the DCAU. That pretty much is my definitive version off DC. That universe ran deeper, and was around longer than anyone would have ever imagined. That said, I actually welcomed the new take that we got from Greg Weisman in YJ, and honestly, I would rather see that world go on than see Timm come back. I say that now, but will be on pins and needles if the DCAU proper comes back.
The DCAU proper is dead, I'm fairly certain, sadly. If it came back, it'd be first in line. Though maybe if Wiseman becomes a heavy-hitter, Disney will finally release the rest of Gargoyles on DVD. And maybe tomorrow I'll have a date with a supermodel and discover cold fusion.

Eric F 04-01-13 09:43 AM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
FYI: Netflix has Justice League/JLU, Batman Beyond available for viewing now.

hanshotfirst1138 04-01-13 11:18 AM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
Originally Posted by Eric F (Post 11636281)
FYI: Netflix has Justice League/JLU, Batman Beyond available for viewing now.
FINALLY! Of course, they still don't have BTAS or STAS though. Do the problems with Smallville and the Superman stuff have to do with the ongoing Siegel and Shuster lawsuit?

PS Bruce Timm and co.'s commentaries on their DVDs are a blast.

fujishig 04-01-13 11:47 AM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
Originally Posted by hal9000 (Post 11634292)
Three things put Warner Bros. TV animation on a path of destruction...

1. Shooting their load on "The Year of the Green Lantern." Look that quote up. They actually thought The Green Lantern was gonna be HUGE. This was an overall mistake by the entire Warner Bros. company. Hoping to turn a C-list character into the next Iron Man. I got news for WB... The Green Lantern sucks and plain and simple, there's too much green. The lead actor you chose for your "tent pole" franchise is no Robert Downey Jr.. This had ramifications across all of your platforms... Your plans for "synergy" were pretty much fucked from the get go.

2. CGI. Well, wanting to compete with the Lucas' of the world thinking kids actually care about how their animation is made. No, they care about good stories. The actual animation is secondary. Memo to Warners execs, CGI is a waste of fucking money. It's why every other animated series kicked Green Lanterns ass. 2D animation is cheap and fast to produce. This is not to be said about CG. The single episode budget for Green Lantern was 3 to 4 times that of a regular 2D episode. They thought they'd save money overall with pre loading the assets... i.e., all your main characters are designed before you start production... to save costs on having to have a staff artist throughout the entire typical three season run of a show. Well, that didn't work either but I won't go into detail on that.

3. Not enough funny... comedy is king on all of the networks right now... Nick, CN, Disney. Even Tron failed on Disney... I hate to say it, boys action is dead right now.

WB needs to get rid of that "CG is gonna save WB" mindset. Concentrate on good old fashioned 2D... leave the CG for the big boys like Pixar, Dreamworks, et al. This is why WB's upcoming Batman CGI is doomed to fail, kids don't give a shit about TV CG... and kids don't care about action right now. WBTVA is basically putting all their chips on black right now hoping to win...
Thanks for posting the insight. I guess the comedy thing is why we're going to that new comedic Teen Titans Go show, although that seems to fly in the face of the new Batman cartoon (which is both CGI and action, though luckily not Green Lantern related, so maybe being Batman will save it). Adult fans seem to also hate the comedic undertones of Ultimate Spider-man, but it's still running (and I still enjoy it... not as good as it's predecessor, but what are you going to do?).

I agree that GL was just too green... it also started off very slowly. I agree a bit with the viewpoint that you have to introduce the side characters and make them popular while still having that Batman/Superman hook. It wouldn't have hurt them to stay on Earth just a little bit (although it does seem like they were going for a Clone Wars/galactic type thing). They probably assumed that the movie would be enough of an intro to the character.

But look at Young Justice. I think they did a great job of keeping the big guns in the background, allowing the younger characters to develop. Same with JLU (once JL established the "big 7) and Brave and the Bold. I don't see a problem with that as long as you establish the other characters well.

I'm surprised that nobody at DC is pointing fingers at CN. I really think they're a major problem. They yank the scheduling all over the place, they barely promote the shows (even though I'm looking for the shows I sometimes miss when they go off of hiatus) and they push their live action stuff a ton.

davidh777 04-01-13 11:58 AM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
Originally Posted by PhantomStranger (Post 11634648)
Though this new regime might sway me if they could produce a Legion Of Superheroes movie, preferably with Superboy or Supergirl.
Originally Posted by hanshotfirst113 (Post 11636203)
I think there was Legion animated series at some point. My understanding is that it was decidedly subpar though. I didn't watch that or The Batman or Batman: The Brave and the Bold or much of any of the other stuff, after the DCAU died, I sort of lost interest.
I'm a big fan of classic Legion (meaning Shooter-Grell-Giffen; I wasn't around for the various reboots etc. and have tried to catch up somewhat through TPB) and I liked the animated series a lot. It seemed pretty faithful, and the kind of thing I wouldn't imagine someone ever greenlighting. But for audience appeal, they of course included a Kryptonian, though I understand there were rights issues that made them have to call him Superman instead of Superboy. That got a little creepy in one episode when "Superman" had romantic interest in a non-hero teenage girl.

fujishig 04-01-13 12:26 PM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
I liked the Legion show, but with most of these series I usually fall way behind and then try to wait for the DVDs (which now never come out). I changed that for Young Justice and Green Lantern because I was more enamored of the style.

I wonder if we're going to get mainly new 52 designs, which would personally be a turn off...

Pizza 04-01-13 01:01 PM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
Originally Posted by PhantomStranger (Post 11634648)
We've seen completely new stories for superhero animation before, they rarely have the depth or intricate plotting of direct comic book adaptations. Adapting existing comic books works so well for animation because the entire story has already been storyboarded...in the comics.

Though this new regime might sway me if they could produce a Legion Of Superheroes movie, preferably with Superboy or Supergirl.
I never understood philosophy of not using all this stuff that has been proven to be good, especially for the big screen movies but certainly for these animated films. Talk to any comic geek and they can tell you the key stories that were great. Timm was a smart guy and knew what he was doing.

Dragon Tattoo 04-01-13 01:04 PM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
Originally Posted by hanshotfirst113 (Post 11636203)
I'm such a hypocrite, I'm always railing against mindless franchising, but I'm happy Power Rangers is still doing well because of my nostalgia :D. Say, how has this season been? Have we seen any of the anniversary guest stars yet? On a tangential note, when does Korra come out on DVD? And when does the second season premiere?
Not very good. It's better than Samurai, but that's not saying much. At this point, I'm only watching for the anniversary stuff (and The Legend War). No guest stars yet, but the yellow ranger's been tweeting pics from the set of all the old monster suits and a few guest stars, so they are shooting stuff now. Looks like it'll be the 2nd half of MegaForce.

I don't know any news about Korra. Amazon has a placeholder page up for the 1st DVD set, but I don't think any dates have been announced yet.

davidh777 04-01-13 01:06 PM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
Originally Posted by Pizza (Post 11636505)
I never understood philosophy of not using all this stuff that has been proven to be good, especially for the big screen movies but certainly for these animated films. Talk to any comic geek and they can tell you the key stories that were great. Timm was a smart guy and knew what he was doing.
Even if you argue that you want to create something new, it doesn't really hold water from a business perspective. The casual fan will not have read these stories in the comics so it's new to them, and the hardcore fan will want to see them animated.

fujishig 04-01-13 02:03 PM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
I think the way they've been adapting comic stories for their animated series have been pretty good... not just going panel by panel by the comic but actually using story cues or putting up just enough of a similarity for comic fans to geek out, but not so much that it compromises the cartoon. I think he's mainly talking about the direct to dvd/blu features, some of which are only really loosely based on the source material (like JL:Doom). I don't think they've done this yet, but they can't make stuff that assumes people have already read the comic, because such a small percentage of their audience has. It worked for something like Akira (which really makes very little sense if you haven't read the manga) that was widely read by the target audience, but otherwise...

That said, I haven't really caught all of the more recent dvds... how have Batman Year One and Superman: the Elite been?

I do wish they would at least create a cohesive universe so that there could be some story progression... not necessarily making people watch all the features to get the story, but at least having some continuity so that the characters don't have to be reimagined every single time.

PhantomStranger 04-01-13 02:17 PM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
Originally Posted by fujishig (Post 11636620)
That said, I haven't really caught all of the more recent dvds... how have Batman Year One and Superman: the Elite been?
Year One is a fine adaptation of the comic if you can tolerate the terrible voice for Batman they chose. I liked Superman: The Elite, it mirrors the comic pretty closely.

Mike86 04-01-13 03:31 PM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
Originally Posted by PhantomStranger (Post 11636641)
Year One is a fine adaptation of the comic if you can tolerate the terrible voice for Batman they chose. I liked Superman: The Elite, it mirrors the comic pretty closely.
Agreed. Bryan Cranston however made a great Gordon.

hanshotfirst1138 04-02-13 07:33 PM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
Originally Posted by hanshotfirst113 (Post 11636382)
FINALLY! Of course, they still don't have BTAS or STAS though. Do the problems with Smallville and the Superman stuff have to do with the ongoing Siegel and Shuster lawsuit
Say, given the hack-job that Warner did with the second season DVDs, is this the first time an anamorphic version of season two has been made available? On that subject for DCAU fans, as regards the DVD releases, a few questions. The first is in regards to Batman: The Complete Animated Series. Apparently it was a limited edition, unlike the other complete sets. Apparently bootlegs of it are ubiquitous, I'm evidently not getting it unless I pay three figures? Does the double-feature DVD of Return of the Joker and Mystery of the Batwoman have all of the requisite special features for both films? I believe it contains the edited version of ROTJ, I have the uncut version, but I'd like the edited version only because it has a different commentary and I'm a completist. Were there every any MOTB extras besides the Chase Me short? And did season two of JL ever get an anamorphic release? I'm under the assumption that the disc in the complete series set are the same as the original release ones, IE non-anamorphic?

I might star watching Smallville if TNT ever catches up with their reruns and starts over.

Originally Posted by davidh777 (Post 11636428)
I'm a big fan of classic Legion (meaning Shooter-Grell-Giffen; I wasn't around for the various reboots etc. and have tried to catch up somewhat through TPB) and I liked the animated series a lot. It seemed pretty faithful, and the kind of thing I wouldn't imagine someone ever greenlighting. But for audience appeal, they of course included a Kryptonian, though I understand there were rights issues that made them have to call him Superman instead of Superboy. That got a little creepy in one episode when "Superman" had romantic interest in a non-hero teenage girl.
Apparently that legal battle isn't getting resolved at any point in the near future, if ever. Didn't DC's former president Paul Levitz cut his teeth writing Legion at one point?

Originally Posted by Dragon Tattoo (Post 11636515)
Not very good. It's better than Samurai, but that's not saying much. At this point, I'm only watching for the anniversary stuff (and The Legend War). No guest stars yet, but the yellow ranger's been tweeting pics from the set of all the old monster suits and a few guest stars, so they are shooting stuff now. Looks like it'll be the 2nd half of MegaForce.
Have I mentioned how much I miss Lynn, Marchand, and Sakamoto :(? I'll still swing by for the promised anniversary stuff though if they get get back any old actors. Apparently they shot some US-exclusive stuff for the Legend War.

PhantomStranger 04-02-13 10:35 PM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
Originally Posted by hanshotfirst113 (Post 11638175)
Say, given the hack-job that Warner did with the second season DVDs, is this the first time an anamorphic version of season two has been made available? On that subject for DCAU fans, as regards the DVD releases, a few questions. The first is in regards to Batman: The Complete Animated Series. Apparently it was a limited edition, unlike the other complete sets. Apparently bootlegs of it are ubiquitous, I'm evidently not getting it unless I pay three figures? Does the double-feature DVD of Return of the Joker and Mystery of the Batwoman have all of the requisite special features for both films? I believe it contains the edited version of ROTJ, I have the uncut version, but I'd like the edited version only because it has a different commentary and I'm a completist. Were there every any MOTB extras besides the Chase Me short? And did season two of JL ever get an anamorphic release? I'm under the assumption that the disc in the complete series set are the same as the original release ones, IE non-anamorphic?

Apparently that legal battle isn't getting resolved at any point in the near future, if ever. Didn't DC's former president Paul Levitz cut his teeth writing Legion at one point?
Both of those movies you mention have now been released in definitive Blu-ray versions that look and sound great.

Warner won their legal battle over Superman and control full rights to the character going forward unless the decision is overturned in a higher court. Superboy is a somewhat trickier proposition I believe, since he was created later. I don't think we will ever see DC dust the real Superboy off and reintroduce him into continuity.

The Valeyard 04-03-13 12:06 AM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
Originally Posted by hanshotfirst113 (Post 11638175)
Didn't DC's former president Paul Levitz cut his teeth writing Legion at one point?
Yep. He had a long run on the book and wrote the classic "Great Darkness Saga." He also wrote the first Legion book I ever read (with Mike Grell on art). Loved this book as a kid!

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/...psd06bbee5.jpg

resinrats 04-03-13 12:30 AM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
Don't see why they couldn't make a Justice League Unlimited 2 series. Of course with a different name. For old fans, it is a return to the DCU but for new fans, they don't need to see the old stuff to enjoy it. Other then Luthor & Darkseid being missing, there wasn't anything that needs to be set up for the series to work. I'm sure they could get those two back somehow.

Its a cartoon so there doesn't even have to be a time jump. Start it a week after the last series. JL went to JLU without an explanation. Just suddenly there were a whole lot more characters around. Only a few got orgins. Only differences I could see is some voices might be different.

davidh777 04-03-13 11:10 AM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
Originally Posted by The Valeyard (Post 11638481)
Yep. He had a long run on the book and wrote the classic "Great Darkness Saga." He also wrote the first Legion book I ever read (with Mike Grell on art). Loved this book as a kid!

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/...psd06bbee5.jpg
Yeah, I grew upon Legion during the Earthwar saga (which still has not been reprinted in TPB) and stayed through the Great Darkness Saga, but also caught up on the Shooter-Swan era.

PhantomStranger 04-03-13 01:52 PM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
Originally Posted by resinrats (Post 11638486)
Don't see why they couldn't make a Justice League Unlimited 2 series. Of course with a different name. For old fans, it is a return to the DCU but for new fans, they don't need to see the old stuff to enjoy it. Other then Luthor & Darkseid being missing, there wasn't anything that needs to be set up for the series to work. I'm sure they could get those two back somehow.

Its a cartoon so there doesn't even have to be a time jump. Start it a week after the last series. JL went to JLU without an explanation. Just suddenly there were a whole lot more characters around. Only a few got orgins. Only differences I could see is some voices might be different.
I am almost positive the new regime is going to be forced into using the new character designs from the DC comics' reboot. Warner will likely want a consistent Superman across all media, which means he will be losing the underwear and his marriage in the newer shows and movies.

fumanstan 04-03-13 02:04 PM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
I don't mind seeing new developments, just like I didn't mind seeing other actors voice Batman instead of Kevin Conroy. I'd just like to see them develop as deep of a universe as they did with the DCU instead of these random one off series that are aimed younger. A new Justice League with updated designs and stories from the new 52 would be fine, just make it cohesive.

PhantomStranger 04-03-13 02:10 PM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
Originally Posted by fumanstan (Post 11639029)
I don't mind seeing new developments, just like I didn't mind seeing other actors voice Batman instead of Kevin Conroy. I'd just like to see them develop as deep of a universe as they did with the DCU instead of these random one off series that are aimed younger. A new Justice League with updated designs and stories from the new 52 would be fine, just make it cohesive.
The new universe is about 20 issues old at this point. There simply aren't enough stories from the new continuity to make it the basis of all future shows.

fumanstan 04-03-13 02:37 PM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
I meant mostly from the design and jumping off stand point for the universe. They could come up with whatever stories they want after or use a mix of old and new story arcs.

mrhan 04-03-13 06:46 PM
Re: Bruce Timm Exits Warner Bros. Animation
 
So, I guess we are never gonna see the Judas Contract movie. I remember reading back in '07 that Wolfman did a final draft and then nothing. It's been on the backburner so long I really doubt it now.


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