DeputyDave

Man! Watching that scene makes me want to start the series again. I promised myself I would wait until I have all of season 2 DVR'd.

wishbone

I imagine it's like primogeniture in our world when nobles that were not first-born served as knights and clergy -- joining the Night's Watch kinda fulfills both aspects of service.

Mordred

Actually the first part of your spoiler has been on the show, just spread out a little bit in the retelling so it's hard to get (I had to explain it to my fiance twice). It also seems pretty important to the history of the realm, so I'll reiterate it here with only information the show provided for the people who missed it.

Ned Stark's sister Lyanna was betrothed to Robert who dearly loved her. The crown prince Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and held her in a tower. Ned's father and brother Brandon went to Kings Landing to petition (Mad King) Aerys to force his son to give Lyanna back. Instead of complying Aerys had the Starks burned alive in front of the entire court while no one said a word against him. Upon learning this news Robert started his rebellion. Robert killed Rhaegar on the Trident. Afterward Ned and a few companions (sans Robert) rode to the Tower where Lyanna was being held and found it guarded by 3 of the Kings Guard. A battle ensued and the Kings Guard were killed. Unfortunately Ned had arrived too late as Lyanna was already dying and Robert never saw her alive.

Tommy Ceez

A knight in Westeros is FAR more comfortable a lifestyle than the Watch.

MikahC

Seems to me the Night's Watch would get more recruits if they didn't have to give up everything for life. What kind of recruiting tool says, "You'll freeze nearly to death daily and never have anything." Sign me up! Who else would sign up for that but criminals? It should be more like the military where you give a certain number of years of service and at the end of that, you can either re-up or exit with benefits and blessings. 5 years? Piece of land and a goat. 10 years? Piece of land, goat, pot of silver. Something like that. Jon Snow seems to think it's a point of honor (though he was trying to leave), but he has imbibed in the Kool Aid. There's little apparent benefit to him being at Night's Watch over having a life at Winterfell (except Kat seems to detest him).

pinata242

Yes, Cat was not going to let Jon stay at Winterfell. Remember, he left when she and Robb were still there. He wasn't wedding a noble girl, he wasn't going to have a place of honor at her table, he wasn't going to master-at-arms or go study to be a maester or anything. His options were limited and he wanted to be close to his family - Uncle Benjen, First Ranger.

wishbone

"Seems" can safely be removed from your assertion...

anomynous

That's one of the only things I don't like about Kat, that she hates Jon. She & Ned raised him, he is pretty much her son.

Tommy Ceez

I get the impression that she made believe he wasn't there for 17 years

superdeluxe

He is a reminder of Ned's unfaithfulness

zuffy

That is Ned's fucked up. Why take it on the kid? So it's OK to be super loverly with your SO that cheated on you and treat the bastard as shit? She suck.

Thrush

Are the Tully's a major house? If so why not petition them to join Robb's forces?

DeputyDave

It seems like they are fairly big. They have bannermen after all (the creepy old dude with the young girl for a wife).

MikahC

The truth is... they all suck. The Starks are our heroes in this show, but I'm not so sure how true that is to the books. I haven't read them, and I'm no expert, but I get the feeling GRRM doesn't believe in the whole traditional good/bad thing. In truth, people have good qualities and bad qualities. "Good" people occasionally do "bad" things and "bad" people occasionally do "good" things.

As I said way back at the beginning of season 1, it kind of sucked that Ned cut off the head of someone (Night's Watch guy) who was completely telling the truth about why he was where he was. Wouldn't even listen to him. Wouldn't question him. Just off with your head, dance 'til you're dead.

Tyrion is a favorite now, but it wasn't at all initially clear that he was anti-hero material. He was decadent, entitled, and probably quite a few other derogatory adjectives.

We could go down the line. These people aren't pristine. Cat has many good qualities, but she's not perfect. I doubt GRRM never wanted her to be. How she treats Jon is just one of her imperfections. I do agree it's silly to forgive Ned but blame Jon. They're paying for it, too. The family would be much stronger if Jon where still with them. Of course there was no knowing Ned would be offed when Jon was sent away. Ned was riding high as Hand of the King at the time and Cat was at home ruling Winterfell.

Mordred

The Tully's are kind of a mid-level house, and they command the Riverlands which is one of the seven principle kingdoms in Westeros.

I don't think this has been mentioned on the show so consider it a pretty minor spoiler:

Mordred

That's exactly why I like the books so much. "Bad" characters often have really good reasons for the bad things they do. "Good" characters often do really horrible stupid things for no good reason.

I assume most people liked Theon in season one, but he seems intent on betraying his best friend, just to earn the approval of his father and people. It's hard to judge actions like that with a simple good/bad label.

Defiant1

I get the impression that Cat had nothing to do with Jon's upbringing. Everything was done by Ned, Maester Luwin, Old Nan, and Ser Rodrik.

Spoilering this just in case but

Josh-da-man

Maybe if Ned had told Kat the truth about who Jon was (which is only an assumption at this point, and I could see Martin changing his mind about it since everyone has figured it out) and legitimized him into the family, they would be stronger for it now. Of course Ned, while being a good guy, wasn't the sharpest tack in the box.

And I think that Ned didn't want to execute the deserter, but he was legally bound to do so. That was a really great scene to establish Ned's character, because you could immediately tell what kind of person he was. He took no pleasure in the execution, and didn't really want to do it, but he wasn't going to make someone else do it.

The Starks are, all things considered, good people. They treat people like Theon and Osha well.

Ketamine

Ned is strictly by the book. Right or wrong, Ned follows the law. This guy deserted the Night Watch and punishment for that is death. Doesn't matter why you left, you are put to death if you leave.

To make it worse though, this guy didn't leave because he looking for some vagina or was home sick, he ran because he saw a white walker and didn't bother to warn people of the danger. He just was trying to save himself. All the more reason to put him to death if you following the code of the Night Watch.

dhmac

I still wonder how the hell that guy was able to get south of the Wall? The Wall seems like it would prevent anyone from getting south of it without passing through the gated tunnel.

MikahC

In Deserter's defense, it wasn't "because he saw a White Walker" like, "Hey, look at the little bunny." It's BECAUSE HE SAW A WHITE WALKER! Maybe I need to watch the scene again, but I remember a guy who was completely disoriented because he watched his friends savaged and barely escaped with his life. I didn't think it was so much a matter of him running off and not telling anyone as much as it was he didn't have a chance yet before he was found.

So let's put it out there and see if this makes sense. Correct me where I'm wrong... A small group of Night's Watch is out, they're savagely (and murderously) attacked by White Walkers, one guy is terrified but gets away. While roaming the countryside horseless he's spotted by Ned's people. He tells them he's seen a White Walker. They're like, "And Santa Claus too? Screw that, you're a deserter." So they bring him back to Ned and tell Ned what he said. So Ned's all, "Yeah, yeah... whatever... look, I don't have all day, just put your head on the block." ** CHOP ** What's for dinner?

In all seriousness, I get Ned being by the book, but when someone does something he isn't supposed to do, I'd like to know why. If he provides a stupid (or no) reason, sure, off with his head. But exactly what was the guy supposed to do? Again, maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but my sense of the scene back when it happened was I didn't see much else the guy could have done after his comrades were killed and he lost his horse. He had to wander back to civilization solo.

The only thing I'm not sure of (or remembering) is if it was a sanctioned Night's Watch patrol. If all of them were in fact deserters and he had no legitimate reason to be out there in the first place, that would be different. But I don't remember that being the case. I certainly don't remember Ned asking. Before I'd assume someone is a deserter, I'd ask "What were you doing out there?"

Also, the whole killing his daughter's Direwolf (which had done nothing) to placate an evil queen and a drunkard and whoring King rather than taking him in private and talking some sense into him. Speaking of which, I want Arya to have her Direwolf back, but at this point I'm not even sure if they're still bonded.

Going further along the "Stark Family Honor," topic... Sansa sucks. Sure she's a sympathetic figure now, but she has previously lied and been totally self-centered. Let's not forget she lied in front of everyone against her sister (her own flesh and blood) so as not to risk her spot as wife of the future King. She'd rather be wife of Mad King II than point out he's a butthole and lose her spot. Her list of transgressions is long and in no way do I consider her a person of honor. But then, as we've said, it's not all black and white. She has shown redeeming qualities.

On the other hand, honorable Ned showed up in his refusal to support killing Dany. Cat has been honorable with the female mountain. Etc.

In some ways, this is all just another Nietzschian study and people will do what's best for themselves regardless of overall principles of right and wrong.

arminius

The patrol went north of the wall to find the wildlings{?} that had raided the lands, I think south of the wall. They were to find where they went. When they found them the old guy and the survivor wanted to leave as they had found what they were looking for and could report it. The weenie in charge of the patrol forced them to stay and find out what happened to the wildlings. Then when all hell broke lose you had the survivor running away. I would think there was somewhere on the wall where he could have reported what he found but instead he just kept going south. How he got back past the wall or how the wildlings got back and forth I am not sure I understand. Maybe that gate is not guarded and anyone can get through?

Mordred

It honestly doesn't make any sense. Someone in the mental state he was in couldn't have climbed the wall... certainly not by himself and without ropes. He couldn't have gone through a deserted towers gate because then all the wildlings could get through the same spot as well. He couldn't have gone through castle black because they would've opened the gate for him and interrogated him. He couldn't have gone around because it would've taken forever. He'd have to somehow know a secret passage under the wall, but that seems unlikely too.

You can tell this really bugs me

areacode212

I go back-and-forth on Will (the deserter). Yeah, he was scared shitless, but was he that out of it that he once he ran down to the Wall, he couldn't travel along it to reach Castle Black to warn everyone? But then again, he was probably that terrified that he wanted to place as much distance between himself and the North as possible.


I think it's possible for some wildling stragglers to get through the wall via other gates, unguarded weak points, etc. Just not en masse.



As for Sansa, yeah, that wasn't exactly her shining moment, but, she's basically a sheltered teen (with a huge crush) at that point, and don't forget: it's not just that she herself wanted to marry Joffrey (though that's part of it)--it was her parents' big plan to marry her into the royal family. It's a tough position to be in, to have to call her future husband (and king) a liar. She didn't know Joffrey and Cersei would turn out to be such psychos. Obviously it wouldve been for the best if she had, and the Starks had returned to Winterfell, but then the series would have lasted 2 episodes.

pinata242

I don't think it was her family's big plan for her to be queen either, King Robert sort of demanded it down in the Winterfell crypts.

"We were meant to rule together. If your sister had lived, we'd have been bound by blood. Well, it's not too late. I have a son, you have a daughter, we'll join our houses."