kaze0

Smoke monster can see into people's past experiences. Maybe smokey didn't know there was anything outside the island, so now that MiB knew, smokey knows and he wants off.

andy434343

because having the essence of someone, and actually being someone, are two different things.

By your statement, you are saying that the smoke monster is John Locke as well, since it has all of the experiences of him, as well as the MIB....

calhoun07

I don't think I can separate the two in my mind. MIB and the smoke monster are not two different entities...the smoke monster IS MIB in the after life of sorts. It was like his soul or spirit being released from his body, but it is him. The dead body was left behind and his spirit and soul had been set free and is darkness and turned into some strange smoke thing for some reason because he's trapped on the island.

I didn't say it makes sense...why would somebody's soul and spirit be represented as destructive black smoke on the island? But I do think Smoky is every bit MIB but in a non physical form.

If there is any main complaint I have about Tuesday night's episode it's that the mom failed to really disclose to Jacob and MIB the true nature of the island and exactly what the cave was. If she didn't fully know or comprehend that cave that would have been acceptable, but at least let her come out and admit it. I think she knew the consequences of going into it because she went into it herself, but obviously we saw no evidence of that except the massive destruction of the village. Maybe the cave didn't turn her into a smoke monster, but it gave her some powers to cause destruction. How else did she do all that?

But the point is if you're about to entrust somebody with something like that, you disclose all that you know. You don't give vague responses to their questions.

dsa_shea

This! Instead they should say this this is the conclusion that they have decided upon with what they started with Adam and Eve instead of jerking themselves and acting like they had a big plan.

dsa_shea

I believe that the Smoke Monster is himself and the MIB is an absorbed identity. I'm not sure that I believe that MIB is the smoke monster and it would be silly for them to want us to believe that. Leave the smoke monster to be some supernatural being and not expect us to believe that MIB all of a sudden becomes that because he took a ride on Wonka's Boat down stream.

Michael Corvin

I don't quite get that either.

Then how do people keep coming to the island?

I'm with you, I thought they made it pretty clear, well as clear as Lost makes things anyway. I'm still not sure how it could be interpreted any other way. Smokey wants what MiB wants and has a personal vendetta against Jacob, like MiB. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

And that is where the whole episode fell apart and I would assume the sole reason for all the backlash. It's not that fake mom didn't know what was going on it was the fact she broke the 4th wall with that condescending bullshit "I could answer your question, but you'll just have 10 more questions." From the writers straight to the fans... she says that line and all my ears hear is "Fuck You."

As much as answers would be nice, it was the way it was handled that pisses me off. Like I said earlier, even if she just tossed out "I licked a toad and got magical powers" would have been better than the way it was handled.

Everything turned out okay in Night at the Museum.

Vipper II

I think the one thing this episode did exceptionally well was get two kids who looked remarkably similar to their adult counterparts.

Ayre

I don't agree with that. The common link is their desire to leave the island. The numerous pre-smokey references during this episode and the post-smokey references all season are an intentional connection created by the writers to give a common purpose. Because they are the same.

Although, it could all be a smoke screen

mersaulte

To me, the Cave of Light seemed in my mind very much like some sort of womb. Part of what the FMother said about it fits a womb description (life, rebirth) but part of what she said does not. It just made me think of a womb.

It is very easy for me to separate MIB and Smoky.

Smoky may have been some strange, entity-without-a-real-form that was present on the island long before any people first came to the island. Before the *first* people came to the island. Smoky may have already been there long before Jacob and MIB were born. It did not have a dead body to "possess" until it found a dead body there to possess. ("Possess" for lack of a much better word. It needed an empty shell; a dead person's corpse.) MIB may not have been its first physical incarnation; just the first one WE saw as viewers. He is not "completely MIB" anymore than he is completely Christian or any other body he used.

But we do know that after Locke became FLocke, John had some sort of access to Smoky's "memories" of previous incarnations and vice versa. I think Smoky takes on bits of memories and little pieces of personalities of the dead bodies it "uses". There was no doubt that Flocke and Smoky seemed to exchange some memory/characteristics of "each other" to some degree at least.

A word about Walt. For some of us who tend to overanalyze and who spent a great deal of time dwelling on Lost theories (because it was fun at one time and we enjoyed it), the Walt story, as just an example of the many, many subplots that were completely abandoned as though we'd just completely forget about them altogether, his tale seems like it should not just simply be "over" just because (most obviously) the child actor went through quite a growth spurt and was physically quite different, when they were only supposed to have been on the island at that time a certain number of days. Aside from that, and again I'm just using him as an example - there are certainly more important details or substories that were important at one time or other and then were completely abandoned - there were quite a few things about Walt that were just simply disregarded and never bothered with again, never giving us even an inkling of explanation. We saw that weird thing with the birds and the windows, where Walt was staying, before he went to the island when his mum was still alive, I believe. We saw that after his mom died, his stepfather wanted to do anything to get Michael to take Walt back, because Walt freaked him out or something. (We never got any details on that.) When Walt was on the island but was missing, it was creepy how he'd appear (i.e., to Shannon) with that water gurgling out of his mouth. Creepy. Then after it was known that the Others had taken Walt, they eventually, if I remember right, after Michael was allowed three minutes to visit with him, the Others ended up just kind of giving Walt back, saying that (to paraphrase) "There was something about him, something we did not anticipate..." What the heck was that all about? Just using that part of Walt's existence on the island as an example; not the most important thing going on but just something they kind of *dropped* as if it had never happened or as if we'd never remember it anyway. Well, I remember. I wonder what had happened with all that.

Yeah, we know he got off the island and visited Hurley and all that. Seemingly to say "Let's just pretend all that other shit didn't happen."

Why does it bother some of us that MIB was never given a name? Because they fucking *could have* and didn't. We have been calling him MIB/Jacob's Nemesis/Esau for how long now? We deserve to know his fucking name. I think on this week's ep, I heard Jacob refer to him twice as "Brother" or "My Brother"... Well, maybe we want to know his real name because we need to know who the hell he really IS, maybe also giving us a hint or two who Jacob is, and what they are truly doing there. I can kind of see them leaving out the name, though, in a way. It's more mysterious. And the series ain't over yet.

I do have a lot to say at the way events have turned and so I have mixed feelings about this week's ep, and I had SO much looked forward to it. Remember when it was FUN to watch Lost, and we wondered who would "get" Kate first, Jack or Sawyer? Or why Smoky seemed to appear as a white light to John Locke? Or if they'd ever really figure out who Ben was supposed to be? Even in 4 and 5, I still was so excited to watch this show... I really wish we'd gotten to know Faraday more, as he really was helpful in explaining things to the viewer while he explained it to the Losties. This all has become, as someone pointed out, a big clusterfuck. I haven't given up yet; I know all the answers are NOT coming (as those promos promised a while back) but there's no way I'm not gonna see how this turns out.

I remember thinking of Smoky as a form of "Judgement" on the island. I remember I thought that when it got Eko. And then also I believe it was Ben? (I'm not sure who said it) who said it was like a security system?

And yeah, the Adam and Eve thing did kinda piss me off. The only other time I remember saying, "This show has insulted my intelligence" (not a lot here to insult, but still) was when Charlie died in a room he so quite clearly could have escaped from. Even though I do understand Desmond's visions and that Charlie's death was inevitable. It was just plain stupid for it to happen the way it did. He could have gotten out of that. So yeah, I was a little annoyed that the writers didn't feel confident that I would be able to piece together the Adam and Eve thing on my own.

Anyhoo. Still can't wait for next week.

calhoun07

If they wanted to show us the Smoke Monster had been on the island all the time all we really needed ot see was Smoky destroying the village. The mom released it some how and the smoke creature was just a force of nature before it had a body to take over. But they didn't. I don't buy one woman by herself destroyed an entire village and filled a huge hole they used for excavation in such a short amount of time. It suggests to me that the smoke monster was at her disposal, or she had powers similar to the smoke monster. But what we saw in the context of the episode clearly points to MIB turning into the Smoke Monster and the Smoke Monster didn't need the physical body any more.

calhoun07

I think the REAL reason they put the flash back in there was so they could cut a check to the main actor's for this week's episode. Maybe some kind of residual check, but they didn't want to take an episode without any pay.

In one of the interviews with Lindelof and Cuse linked earlier in the thread they made a comment they wanted to get the main actors seen in the episode. Why? Because they were demanding their pay?

Superman07

If something close to this doesn't happen the entire series will be a waste for me. As we've learned over the seasons, "what happened, happened", "this all happened before, it will happen again", "they come, they fight, they kill", death and destruction will follow, etc.

When Jacob told his 'mom' he didn't want to drink it and she told him he had to, I was fully expecting him to say, "There's always a choice." We've seen up until that point that apparently there has never been a choice for however long this island, protector and candidates thing has been going on. If Jack is simply going to become the next protector, then why did we even need the series? It could have been a 2 hour movie. If choice isn't going to enter the equation and something break this cycle, then we've just watched Candidate vX and don't have any more answers than Jacob and MiB recieved from their mom.

A few other thoughts/questions:
Jacob/MiB came before the statute and temple were made?
Jacob killed MiB, so the wine made that possible? 'Mother' had told them that they couldn't kill each other.
Why was MiB more special than Jacob?

dsa_shea

The Smoke Monster is a shapeshifter. It is hard for me to believe that one man became the Smoke Monster rather than him being a supernatural being that absorbs the essence of humans it can use to fulfill his goal. I can believe that both the Smoke Monster and MIB had the same goal of leaving the island but that there is something there keeping him attached.

kaze0

Maybe the MiB just never had a name. Do we know their fake mothers name? 3 people living on an island together where 2 of them believe that they are the only 3 people don't really need names. Sure he probably got a name when he lived with the other people, but thats inconsequential.

kaze0

I meant the flash sideways are that. Everyone died, it's really a flash forward, but it's smokey "playing" everyone else, recreating shit that happened in the past for shits and giggles.

jwb0323

i want to think the MiB and smokey were two different entities as well. There was light and dark on the island. The MiB just released smokie. I think this because if it was just MiB wanting to get off the island, so what? Why would everybody die because of one man. I think smokie is a higher evil being. Earlier this season, they mentioned smokie being stuck as Flocke. Well, after Jacob killed his brother and threw him in the stream, smokie became stuck as MiB.

Part of this I still don't understand is if he was stuck as MiB and is now stuck as Locke, was he also stuck as Christian?

Anubis2005X

You guys forgetting that Smokie was talking about his crazy mom in an earlier episode? Jacob's mom said that entering the cave resulted in a fate worse than death, not just death. Holy crap people, Smokie = MIB.

jwb0323

Then how in the heck could the mom kill all those people and fill the hole that was dug if there was no smokie then?

MoviePage

I agree that the actual human MiB we saw this episode is not the monster. It was released from the cave when Jacob sent his (dead?) body in there, and it took his form and identity for many years after. Yes, there are some problems with this theory based on what we've been told, but what theory isn't like that with this show? There are inconsistencies with the alternate scenario as well.

They mentioned in the interview that the light in the cave actually went out when Smokey appeared. I didn't even notice that while watching, but it's obviously an important point.

And count me in as one who isn't the least bit disappointed that MiB doesn't have a name. It made sense within the context of the episode, and giving him a name removes some of the mystique. Do you really want to be watching the finale and when the smoke monster shows up to whoop some ass, you have to say "oh look, there's Jim"? How does that help anything?

I also do not want an explanation about where Mother came from. How far back do we need to go? The creation of the Earth?

The problem, again, is that this is a show about unanswerable mysteries. How do you realistically and believably answer a question like that? How does turning a wheel in a cave that's connected to a mysterious light make an island move, and send some (but not all) of the people on it whirling through time itself?

Groucho

Here's how it works, folks:

MIB=Smokie. When he went into the cave, his "soul" left his body, and he became the smoke monster. Think Sandman in Spiderman 3.

It wasn't explicitly stated, but it seems likely that Mother had also gone into the cave at some point, and also had smoke monster powers. She's able to grant immortality (just like MIB) and was able to wipe out an entire village by herself. Plus, she didn't age in 30 years.

DRG

I agree with all of this, and was about to come in here and post something very similar.

I actually think it is a positive that, for all the mythicizing over Jacob, it turns out he and MIB (seemingly) turned out to be nothing special in the greater scheme of things... it takes it all back to the idea that the island is what is truly special and not that the island was made special by Jacob/MIB. Instead of being a 'series deflater' I saw this episode as a 'twist'. But I realize I'm in the minority here.

Timber

Because Mother was the previous Smokey.

HE Pennypacker

That.

Seriously, I can't believe people are defending this bullshit. This isn't some mid-season blunder typical of Lost's past. We're nearing the penultimate episode of the entire freaking series and this is what Tweedledee and Tweedledum condescendingly give us?

HE Pennypacker

Agreed.

In an absolutely dreadful episode that managed to hand-hold viewers through certain details, one would think that the brilliant writers would at least indicate another Smokey was on the island via sound effects or something to imply Mother was also not fully human.

Michael Corvin

Not only that, a few episodes back MiB clearly stated Jacob stole his body, which leads more credence to the MiB = Smokey angle.

Jacob could not kill MiB. He knocked him unconscious, sent him floating to his "rebirth" as Smokey leaving his body behind.