cracksky

Doc expected her to sleep the entire time so, yes, if she awakened and experienced something during alt85 she would've retained those memories.

andy434343

This is the best lost thread ever. So much randomness to talk about.

Flave

You're thinking about this all wrong -- that we are somehow creating universes on a whim using some sort of superpower. The many-worlds interpretation is a very possible, if as yet unprovable, consequence of the weird and wonderful world of quantum mechanics. Truly bizarre and unintuitive things happen in this sub-atomic zoo. One of the weirdest and wonderfullest is the Double-Slit Experiment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment

How are we to interpret this?

Basically there are two ways (or interpretations) to explain the unintuitive behaviour of QM: 1. The "Copenhagen" interpretation which basically says that QM is merely a mathematical tool and should NOT be used to interpret reality. 2. The "Many-Worlds" interpretation we're discussing which was formulated by a very brilliant physicist by the name of Hugh Everett.

The Copenhagen interpretation espouses a so-called probability "wave function" which "collapses" when a measurement is made to determine which of several possible events occur. The Many-Worlds interpretation says that all events that can occur, do occur, thus causing a splitting of universes. If you accept Many-Worlds, you accept that universe splitting is built into the very fabric of reality. It has nothing to do with you as an individual. (Although some people -- Dr. Roger Penrose -- believe that consciousness if very closely tied to QM. But that's for another day.)

Much more info here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

Palaver

I don't know if this plot point has been discussed yet, but I thought it was interesting that the MiB is planning on using the plane to escape. This makes me think that he is the one that wanted the runway to be built on the Hydra island. Since it was Ben's crew that built that runway, this would fit with a theory that I posted a while back that Ben had been getting his orders from the MiB for a while now, possibly thinking he was Jacob.

mnementh

In Search of Schrödinger's Cat by John Gribbin might be easier to understand than the Wikipedia articles.

andy434343

So by this theory you are saying that the many worlds already exist and all options occur? That is more plausible in my mind, than what Groucho was saying to me regarding my choices that I make with my coffee, which could result in me banging a super model based on whether I choose cream or sugar.....Maybe I choose both because I don't care for black sweet coffee or creamy non sweet coffee. And I don't think that based on my decision about coffee yesterday, I will magically become filthy rich or famous enough to impress a supermodel. If the many worlds are already here, our choices have no impact on creating them, we are just in the world that has the decisions that we actually choose. Which is almost certainly the only world that exists with us in it.

Groucho

Flave and I are saying the same thing. You're getting too caught up in the details. I'm sure you recognize that sometimes inconsequential decisions have a "ripple effect" to more consequential outcomes. For example, ever witness a traffic accident and think "Whoa, if I left home just 30 seconds earlier I'd be in that accident!" Guess what, in another universe an alternate Andy is in hospital with a broken leg chatting up a hot nurse!

andy434343

sweet......sponge bath galore, hopefully from her and not a male nurse. And I am only basing what I said on what you said to me......you talked about the details of the choices, I just exploited what you said.

Flave

Semantics but basically, yes.

That's why I like that paper that I referenced. It makes the distinction that the present/past is deterministic whereas the future is probabilistic and governed by free will.

The nice thing about this approach is that it leaves room for free will to operate in a deterministic universe. Universes encompassing all possible events exist but the ones that don't conform to the present reality are pared away, become unreachable, and essentially cease to exist as far as we're concerned.

mnementh

Of course, every few years, the multiverse experiences a crisis and we all get retconned into one reality.

andy434343

I can accept this as a possibility seeing as ANYTHING is really possible, but like I said, this explanation is not what Groucho spoke of towards me,
Here is what he said:
He spoke of me creating a new universe each time, based on the choices I make, not the alternate universe already being there. So based on what Groucho said to me in which I replied to, you and him are not on the same page. Maybe he typed something that he didn't properly word, I am not sure until he replies to this. I am pretty pumped for lost tonight, I have been waiting years for it.....at least in this universe.

raKim

Are we talking ST:TNG Parallels territory now?

andy434343

If you want it to be, I am all ears. Although I have only really watched the new JJ Abrams version, which I loved. I never really watched any other star trek unfortunately......I know, The Wrath of Kain is awesome, I just don't know if I will ever get around to watching it.

raKim

well basically it states that every action you take no matter how small branches off into a separate timeline, if there is A or B both happen and from there A and B split off again and so on...the show deals with floating pockets of time anomalys (as star trek tends to do a lot) causing a character to "travel" between these branches randomly...the show ends with all of the different possiblities coming to exist in "present" time making for multiple Enterprises (as shown in the picture on the Wiki page)

Now I don't think Lost is doing that, but I do think there are at least 2 or 3 versions of a timeline we know...the only thing that would confuse that is the fact that we are seeing the timeline unfold so until it is done it is pretty hard to say whether all of this is is indeed one timeline or 2+

It has been stated by the creators that the NC timeline is not alternate persay...so that could mean that it's either then end or the beginning as stated before...and again based on how you interpret what you are seeing, that makes it all one timeline or 2+

wow

DarkestPhoenix

If it's any consolation, there is a world where you choose cream and bang a super model. You choose sugar and bang her. You choose both and bang her. You choose neither and bang her.

True, the world which has the decisions we actually chose is where we are and is (almost) certainly the only world that exists with us in it. Except for those worlds that do not.

andy434343

And then there's my actual world where regardless of my choice of coffee, I am not banging a super model, which is the only scenario that makes sense and probably is the only one that exists, but it is nice to think that the others are possible......

mnementh

Why are some people focusing on conscious actions? The multiverse theories have more to do with quantum waveform collapse. A single particle doing one thing or another (or both simultaneously) creates multiple timelines; actions are ridiculously macroscopic in comparison.

DarkestPhoenix

True, but people can see a difference in realities based on choice whereas they cannot see a difference where only one particle is concerned.

Groucho

Because that's pretty boring in terms of fiction and storytelling.

I could go back in time and be very careful only to observe and not touch anything. But my mere presence would create a new timeline. Even if I went forward in time and everything seemed exactly the same I would actually be in a new universe.

andy434343

Maybe time doesn't exist......maybe man just created it, to make things easier for ourselves.

mnementh

Of course, by watching Lost, we act as observers and will cause the storyline to collapse. ;-)

I don't understand the point about being very careful. There's no such thing as only observing and not touching anything (unless you're getting a lap dance). Having a presence back in time isn't slight. You alter the system by being back there. Even on a non-quantum level, every molecule of air you displace or every photon that hits you causes a butterfly effect.

mnementh

Groucho

I think we're making the same point. No matter what you're creating a new universe, but depending on what you do it may or may not be noticeably different from the universe you left.

The new universe created by Marty in BTTF was pretty close to the one he left. His parents were cool, Biff was downtrodden, and the name of the mall had changed -- but that was about it. However, the new universe created by Biff in BTTF2 was significant and affected everybody in Hill Valley.

andy434343

I want to keep this thread going so I am going to argue with what you said Groucho. I think what he was talking about was what could happen in a real scenario if possible, and you are referencing what happens in a 1985 movie. I just realized you were in a agreement with him....oh well.

mnementh

No, no, no. Alternate realities still obey the rules of nature. No supermodels for andy434343.