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-   -   ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight... (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/tv-talk/562656-angel-10-years-ago-tonight.html)

Nick Martin 10-05-09 12:12 PM

ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight - October 5, 1999...
 
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q89/NL197/pic16.jpg

The Joss Whedon 'Buffyverse' expanded 10 years ago tonight, when the WB network premiered "ANGEL", following the exploits of the great 200+ vampire with a soul.

Rather than simply run off an oft-repeated list of favorite episodes or comparisons to Buffy, how about sharing a few recollections about your thoughts when knowing the show was coming, and initial impressions of it when it all began.

To remind viewers of the humble beginnings this show had, have a look at this:

Season 1 Launch Trailer
10 MB mpg file

To commemorate, I'd suggest throwing on the pilot episode, "City Of" say around the 9PM hour if there's nothing on that conflicts. :)

Baron Of Hell 10-05-09 01:07 PM

Re: ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight...
 
One of favorite vampire shows. I liked it even more than Buffy. If anyone is into the comics they continue where the series dropped off.

Superman07 10-05-09 02:14 PM

Re: ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight...
 
Isn't Angel on Hulu?

The main thing I recall is waiting to see how Buffy and Angel would be handled at the end of Season 3. The internet was somewhat in full swing by then, and it was known for a while that Angel was getting his own spin-off. Fans were anxious to say the least to find out what would happen to their favorite tourtured couple.

Nick Martin 10-05-09 03:30 PM

Re: ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight...
 
Season 1 of ANGEL is indeed on Hulu, oddly enough in the same modified 16:9 widescreen presentation - the 4:3 image 'opened up' to wide - that season 2 had on DVD, as well as the UK Buffy seasons 4-7 DVDs. Even more odd since that modified widescreen version of season 1 isn't on DVD anywhere in the world.

I uhm, obtained the episodes using nefarious means (also being in Canada where Hulu isn't available) and there are plenty of 'that shouldn't be seen' elements on the sides. I even made screencaps of some of the more obvious ones. :)

My recollection is just seeing the commercials, not knowing a thing about Angel, not knowing he was a vampire since I didn't watch Buffy. The commercials just looked great and after that teaser with the double-stakes and Christophe Beck's awesome theme that plays as Angel walks down the alley, I was hooked.

Ginwen 10-05-09 06:18 PM

Re: ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight...
 
My main recollection is watching the first couple of episodes and deciding that was enough. After that, I'd watch some crossover ones but I was never very interested in it.

Eventually after it was off I gave it another chance after reading over and over it got better (which it turns out it did). Still not a fan of that first year though.

SuperBatMan 10-05-09 06:32 PM

Re: ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight...
 
I still prefer Angel over Buffy by quite a bit, and season 3 of Angel just had me hooked. I think I watched all 22 episodes on dvd in 2 or 3 days.

And yeah, season 1 of Angel was nearly pure torture to get through at time. It picked up about the last 4 or 5 episodes of the season, and just got better, but IMO it peaked in season 3.

riley_dude 10-05-09 06:40 PM

Re: ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight...
 
It had a slow start but it became one of the best shows on the air and much better than Vampire Diaries and Twilight will ever be.

sq240 10-05-09 09:43 PM

Re: ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight...
 
Angel is one of the main reasons why I hate Vampire Diaries (dropped after first episode) and Twilight so much...

Angel had incredible characters and writing and while it had some of the same romantic undertones it just did not come off as cheesy and obnoxious.. I am glad it went out on a high note and that it avoids being lumped in with these other, in my opinion, crappy vampire stories, but I still miss that show and the Angel (and to lesser extent Buffy) universe a lot...

Gizmo 10-05-09 09:52 PM

Re: ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight...
 

Originally Posted by sq240 (Post 9754027)
Angel is one of the main reasons why I hate Vampire Diaries (dropped after first episode) and Twilight so much...

Angel had incredible characters and writing and while it had some of the same romantic undertones it just did not come off as cheesy and obnoxious.. I am glad it went out on a high note and that it avoids being lumped in with these other, in my opinion, crappy vampire stories, but I still miss that show and the Angel (and to lesser extent Buffy) universe a lot...

Angel, while a strong pilot, didn't really pick up until late in Season 1. It's not fair to judge 3 hours of Vampire Diaries against 5 seasons, 100+ episodes of Angel.

Nick Martin 10-05-09 10:06 PM

Re: ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight...
 

Originally Posted by GizmoDVD (Post 9754040)
Angel, while a strong pilot, didn't really pick up until late in Season 1. It's not fair to judge 3 hours of Vampire Diaries against 5 seasons, 100+ episodes of Angel.

Tell that to all the Whedon fans who think Firefly is the best thing Whedon has done, or Buffy is the best show he did based solely on the fact that it came first, which renders ANGEL last almost every time. There have been plenty of cases here where the quality of a 12 episode season 1 of Buffy to a 22 episode season 1 of ANGEL is compared as well.

People are clearly willing to make comparisons, even unfair ones all the time.

Sean O'Hara 10-05-09 11:08 PM

Re: ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight...
 
I remember when the show started, a lot of people, including myself, were skeptical -- I mean, how can that brooding pretty boy carry a series? And of all the Buffy characters to port over, Cordelia? You gotta be kidding me.

At the time, I thought they should've used Xander instead of Cordy. His character had no room to grow in Sunnydale where he was always surrounded by superpowered bad-asses. But the fact that he and Angel hated each other would've provided an interesting dynamic.

Cordelia of course grew into a great character, but I still think Xander would've been better served in LA than with the lame plots he got stuck with in Sunnydale.

And then there was Doyle, who was coming along so well as a character -- then, boom, dead. No warning at all, just when he was making headway with Cordy. Keep in mind, he wasn't only a main character, he was a main character on a show with three cast members. When you look at the later seasons, with Lorne, Gunn, Fred, Harmony, etc., it's hard to believe the show was down to just two people in the opening credits (even if it only lasted for one episode).

Nick Martin 10-05-09 11:11 PM

Re: ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight...
 
They never did revise the credits to two - Wesley's first episode 'Parting Gifts' still had the original credits with Doyle.

riley_dude 10-05-09 11:28 PM

Re: ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight...
 

Originally Posted by Nick Martin (Post 9754060)
Tell that to all the Whedon fans who think Firefly is the best thing Whedon has done, or Buffy is the best show he did based solely on the fact that it came first, which renders ANGEL last almost every time. There have been plenty of cases here where the quality of a 12 episode season 1 of Buffy to a 22 episode season 1 of ANGEL is compared as well.

People are clearly willing to make comparisons, even unfair ones all the time.

I was able to determine from 2 episodes of Vampire Diaries what age group it was aimed at. I never felt Buffy was aimed at the teen crowd even though it was about teens. That's the difference between Whedon and the imitations of today.

Gizmo 10-05-09 11:39 PM

Re: ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight...
 

Originally Posted by Nick Martin (Post 9754060)
Tell that to all the Whedon fans who think Firefly is the best thing Whedon has done, or Buffy is the best show he did based solely on the fact that it came first, which renders ANGEL last almost every time. There have been plenty of cases here where the quality of a 12 episode season 1 of Buffy to a 22 episode season 1 of ANGEL is compared as well.

People are clearly willing to make comparisons, even unfair ones all the time.

Buffy Season 1 was horrible. Angel Season 1 was uneven, but better than Buffy Season 1. Firefly Series was incredible. Overall, Angel is the better show.

Gizmo 10-05-09 11:41 PM

Re: ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight...
 

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara (Post 9754155)
I remember when the show started, a lot of people, including myself, were skeptical -- I mean, how can that brooding pretty boy carry a series? And of all the Buffy characters to port over, Cordelia? You gotta be kidding me.

At the time, I thought they should've used Xander instead of Cordy. His character had no room to grow in Sunnydale where he was always surrounded by superpowered bad-asses. But the fact that he and Angel hated each other would've provided an interesting dynamic.

Cordelia of course grew into a great character, but I still think Xander would've been better served in LA than with the lame plots he got stuck with in Sunnydale.

And then there was Doyle, who was coming along so well as a character -- then, boom, dead. No warning at all, just when he was making headway with Cordy. Keep in mind, he wasn't only a main character, he was a main character on a show with three cast members. When you look at the later seasons, with Lorne, Gunn, Fred, Harmony, etc., it's hard to believe the show was down to just two people in the opening credits (even if it only lasted for one episode).

I never cared for Doyle as a character, and I'm glad they made a point to say 'hey, people can really die on this show'. Buffy had too many bullshit deaths. Tara was the only one that really stuck.

Draven 10-06-09 12:17 AM

Re: ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight...
 
I have a friend out in LA who worked with a lot of the crew on Angel during the first season and she indicated that Glenn Quinn (Doyle) was fired due to a drug problem that may have involved David Boreanaz as well. And that was before Quinn died of a heroin overdose in real life.

That story always sours a bit of the first season for me, mostly because I don't buy the "Doyle was always meant to die" line they spouted out to explain his character's death.

That said, I asked for the complete Angel series on DVD for my birthday, and as soon as my schedule clears up and we get into winter reruns, I'm banging through the whole thing as quickly as I can. That was a show that truly got better every season and ended on an extremely high note.

Nick Martin 10-06-09 01:27 AM

Re: ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight...
 

Originally Posted by riley_dude (Post 9754179)
I was able to determine from 2 episodes of Vampire Diaries what age group it was aimed at. I never felt Buffy was aimed at the teen crowd even though it was about teens. That's the difference between Whedon and the imitations of today.

The thing is, I won't touch another vampire-related series or movie because of ANGEL and the Joss Whedonverse vampire. I don't care for the other interpretations like Twilight and Vampire Diaries or Anne Rice novels. The Whedonverse vampire lore is more than enough and I'm fine with it. :)

As for the late Glenn Quinn, not watching Buffy prior to "City Of" and the rest of season 1 as it aired meant that Doyle was the one character I understood the most about because he wasn't on Buffy so I wasn't missing any back story. I suppose Whistler could be considered the template but not one that was necessary to understand since he was only in one episode. I've never read anything from Whedon about Quinn's departure aside from that line of 'it was always planned', which on the surface is easy to believe since in the big scheme of things, it was perfectly developed with Cordelia having a new purpose and an established character in Wesley stepping in and really forming a family unit. David Fury had mentioned over the years that there was a difficult situation that had to be dealt with, but that was all that was said about it. Tim Minear mentioned having episodes like "Somnambulist" changed to fit Wesley because they were written for Doyle, which is more proof that it wasn't all pre-planned.

Quinn had drug and behavior problems, and while Boreanaz was probably not drug-influenced he was instead behavior influenced and that was obviously unacceptable so Quinn had to go. In the years after that, Quinn never mentioned being fired fromthe show in interviews and said he remained close with Boreanaz (Christian Kane has mentioned he was also a friend) after his time on the show and even had other characters he played look like Doyle as a shout-out to the fans. He did so for the 2000 movie "At Any Cost" which was a VH1 movie, and his final role in the 2002 movie "R.S.V.P.", which has a commentary that offers several tributes and shout-outs to him since it was recorded not long after his death. He was supposed to star in a sequel but obviously his death prevented that.

There's no way to prove it, and it would conflict with his being fired but someone somewhere mentioned there was an idea to have Quinn return to the show and serve as an evil version of Doyle in the same vein as evil Cordelia - maybe even instead of evil Cordelia, but he died before anything could come of it.

critterdvd 10-06-09 02:06 AM

Re: ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight...
 

Originally Posted by GizmoDVD (Post 9754194)
Buffy Season 1 was horrible. Angel Season 1 was uneven, but better than Buffy Season 1. Firefly Series was incredible. Overall, Angel is the better show.

I don't if I agree with the first statement. The first season of Buffy was definitely uneven but it did bring several amazing episodes - and quickly and effectively established the characters and the setting of sunnydale. I actually prefer it to how light/borderline campy the show became on UPN.


But back to the topic of ANGEL. It was a great show. One of the last shows that I remember getting me hooked from the beginning and feeling like I was on a rollercoaster every time I tuned in. I still miss it.

Original Desmond 10-06-09 05:21 AM

Re: ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight...
 
Your just making me cry mate and my anger for the WB cancelling Angel prematurely is resurfacing ! lol

Angel deserved 2 more seasons

boredsilly 10-06-09 05:40 AM

Re: ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight...
 

Originally Posted by Nick Martin (Post 9754060)
Tell that to all the Whedon fans who think Firefly is the best thing Whedon has done, or Buffy is the best show he did based solely on the fact that it came first, which renders ANGEL last almost every time. There have been plenty of cases here where the quality of a 12 episode season 1 of Buffy to a 22 episode season 1 of ANGEL is compared as well.

Angel is one of my favorite television shows of all time. I remember at the heights of season 4, with The Beast, that I would download episodes off of Kazaa (back in the day), because some affiliates got episodes a day before I did. That's how deep I was into it, I couldn't wait a single day to see what happened.

However, I do think Firefly is the best thing Whedon has ever done. Why? Because it was so short, it's like concentrated awesomeness. Buffy is wonderful, but it became diluted over it's 7 seasons to me, in ways that neither Angel nor Firefly did. I say Firefly is Whedon's best though, because it's really unfair to give Whedon all the credit for Angel. Sure, he helped create it, but that show is as much Greenwalt and Minear as anyone.

Anyways, that's besides the point. The reason why I love Angel so much (and prefer it over Buffy), is it felt like the adult version of whedon-verse. Buffy, for the majority of the shows run, was presented as a girl. Angel, Cordy, Giles, Gunn, Fred, and Wes were adults. Their problems didn't feel as melodramatic or as whimsical as those of the Scoobies.

The best thing about Angel, though, is the character progression. The development of Wes, Cordy, and Fred is just ridiculous.

My first impressions were similar to other folks. I thought the early episodes were ok, but it took them a minute to win me over. I think it was so easy to watch early on because it came on right after Buffy, so why change the channel. But it wasn't long after it's premier that I found myself anticipating Angel more the Buffy. The tone of the show was just so appealing to me. I really enjoyed how the show handled relationships and the found family dynamic. The only borderline awful thing about the show, early on, was Kate. Oh boy. Did she ever not work for me.

Just thinking about it makes me want to watch it all again.

rfduncan 10-06-09 09:07 AM

Re: ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight...
 

Originally Posted by Nick Martin (Post 9754060)
Tell that to all the Whedon fans who think Firefly is the best thing Whedon has done, or Buffy is the best show he did based solely on the fact that it came first, which renders ANGEL last almost every time.

Give it time. There's still Dollhouse to throw into the mix as the bottom. ;)


Originally Posted by riley_dude (Post 9754060)
I was able to determine from 2 episodes of Vampire Diaries what age group it was aimed at. I never felt Buffy was aimed at the teen crowd even though it was about teens. That's the difference between Whedon and the imitations of today

I have to strongly disagree with you. It Buffy most certainly WAS aimed at the teen crowd, specifically the soundtrack choices that were made for the episodes. Much like the current CW shows, Buffy always included a "songs featured in this episode" blurb. Have you listened to the soundtracks? Angel on the other hand? Almost entirely instrumental soundtrack.

chris_sc77 10-06-09 09:58 AM

Re: ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight...
 
I've had the complete series since it first came out.
Me and my girl (who is a big fan of the show) have been starting to work our way through the show. Almost done with season 1. Hope it gets better though cause I have to say it surely is no Buffy.

Gizmo 10-06-09 10:03 AM

Re: ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight...
 

Originally Posted by Nick Martin (Post 9754292)
The thing is, I won't touch another vampire-related series or movie because of ANGEL and the Joss Whedonverse vampire. I don't care for the other interpretations like Twilight and Vampire Diaries or Anne Rice novels. The Whedonverse vampire lore is more than enough and I'm fine with it. :)

As for the late Glenn Quinn, not watching Buffy prior to "City Of" and the rest of season 1 as it aired meant that Doyle was the one character I understood the most about because he wasn't on Buffy so I wasn't missing any back story. I suppose Whistler could be considered the template but not one that was necessary to understand since he was only in one episode. I've never read anything from Whedon about Quinn's departure aside from that line of 'it was always planned', which on the surface is easy to believe since in the big scheme of things, it was perfectly developed with Cordelia having a new purpose and an established character in Wesley stepping in and really forming a family unit. David Fury had mentioned over the years that there was a difficult situation that had to be dealt with, but that was all that was said about it. Tim Minear mentioned having episodes like "Somnambulist" changed to fit Wesley because they were written for Doyle, which is more proof that it wasn't all pre-planned.

Quinn had drug and behavior problems, and while Boreanaz was probably not drug-influenced he was instead behavior influenced and that was obviously unacceptable so Quinn had to go. In the years after that, Quinn never mentioned being fired fromthe show in interviews and said he remained close with Boreanaz (Christian Kane has mentioned he was also a friend) after his time on the show and even had other characters he played look like Doyle as a shout-out to the fans. He did so for the 2000 movie "At Any Cost" which was a VH1 movie, and his final role in the 2002 movie "R.S.V.P.", which has a commentary that offers several tributes and shout-outs to him since it was recorded not long after his death. He was supposed to star in a sequel but obviously his death prevented that.

There's no way to prove it, and it would conflict with his being fired but someone somewhere mentioned there was an idea to have Quinn return to the show and serve as an evil version of Doyle in the same vein as evil Cordelia - maybe even instead of evil Cordelia, but he died before anything could come of it.

Its possible they dumped Doyle a bit early because of his drug problems.

Gizmo 10-06-09 10:04 AM

Re: ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight...
 

Originally Posted by chris_sc77 (Post 9754705)
I've had the complete series since it first came out.
Me and my girl (who is a big fan of the show) have been starting to work our way through the show. Almost done with season 1. Hope it gets better though cause I have to say it surely is no Buffy.

Season 2 and 3 are amazing.

Draven 10-06-09 10:05 AM

Re: ANGEL: 10 years ago tonight...
 
It gets better. MUCH better.


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