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-   -   Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09 (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/tv-talk/554954-lost-2-hour-season-finale-incident-5-13-09-a.html)

RoboDad 05-14-09 10:15 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by Gunde (Post 9444342)
Just curious: Why do you all think Jack's plan was crazy. What's so wrong about wanting to fix things and get everything back to the way it was meant to be. Is it better to pretend to belong in the 70s?

The main reason I think it was (and is) a crazy plan is because it represents the classic time travel paradox. If you travel back in time, and murder your own grandfather, then you would never be born. But, if you were never born, you could not have traveled back in time, so your grandfather lived, which resulted in you being born and traveling back and murdering him, which resulted in no you... and the paradox is never resolved.

By preventing the catastrophe that led to the plane crash, the circumstances that resulted in the losties being sent back in time would never have happened, meaning they would not be there to prevent the catastrophe. Infinite loop.

The only alternative theory that is internally consistent is one where the change in the timeline (the detonation of the thermonuclear device) creates a new parallel timeline, but that means there is a new set of people in the new timeline, and the lives and memories of the current characters are not changed, they are only dead. But even in that new timeline, who is to say that Jacob and his enemy couldn't restore the island, bring a fresh group of people, and have them drill into the pocket?

spainlinx0 05-14-09 10:16 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 
I will say that the story they are trying to tell is fascinating when you are watching. Execution wise, I feel that a lot of this show's flows are overlooked because of that. Let's face it, much of the acting is ham-fisted, dialog overly melodramatic, and character motivations changed on a whim to service the plot. It has been mentioned that the characters don't act rationally, logically, or intelligently a lot of the time. But hey, we love them (except Kate) anyway.

However I look past that because when I watch the show I get the feeling that the people behind the scenes do have a story they want to tell, they might have just bitten off more than they can chew.

However you are right about the filming. The show is absolutely gorgeous.

The problem is that a show like this needs to be planned out from day one. It needs to be written like a book would. The beginning, middle, and end should be known. And if you find that you have a better ending in mind, you rewrite the first chapters, something not possible with a television show when you're writing the next episode to "fix" previous episodes.

However, who in their right mind would sit there and write 100 or so episodes of a tv show without knowing if it will ever air at all? I wonder if this show ever had an outline from day one of what they were doing. When I watch, I just don't get that impression. I feel they have one now, but it was created after the events of the first couple of seasons as a previous poster mentioned.

redrum 05-14-09 10:20 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 
they've had the last couple seasons planned out for a couple years now

outline from day one? hell no

outcastja 05-14-09 10:28 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by spainlinx0 (Post 9445146)
However, who in their right mind would sit there and write 100 or so episodes of a tv show without knowing if it will ever air at all? I wonder if this show ever had an outline from day one of what they were doing. When I watch, I just don't get that impression. I feel they have one now, but it was created after the events of the first couple of seasons as a previous poster mentioned.

I never finished watching it but wasn't Babylon 5 planned from the very start?

spainlinx0 05-14-09 10:35 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by outcastja (Post 9445168)
I never finished watching it but wasn't Babylon 5 planned from the very start?

Yup, apparently it was. Also, I believe the creator wrote almost every episode himself. Fantastic show.

chanster 05-14-09 10:36 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by Pharoh (Post 9445089)
I agree on all counts, and am resigned to accepting that. It seems that that the contradictions between the scattershot approach of the first two seasons and the overarching story imagined after that are going to be extremely difficult to resolve.

And it is precisely this conflict that leads some of us to occasionally criticise the recent direction of the show, and to voice fears, as you have, about where it is going. Things such as notably uncharacteristic actions undertaken by central players, plot advancement at the expense of character development, and a boatload of loose ends that will likely never be resolved, give me pause. I still believe the show is the best written and filmed show on network TV, and enjoy it immensely, but I now have a nagging sentiment of what if.

From what I remember, the show needed plot in Seasons 2 and 3. People were complaining about nothing happening; when they tried to introduce new characters (i.e. Nikki and Paulo) they got hammered. I mean a lot of the early episodes were about Walt, and his special powers, but the show pretty much swept him under the rug. Now he could come back, but whatever.

dsa_shea 05-14-09 10:39 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by Pharoh (Post 9444969)
I understand and fully accept this. However, I don't put the origin, nature, and purpose of the Others, the only constant aside from the Losties, to be in the category of Libby, Ecko, Claire, or even Walt. Based on all that we have ever known, they are essential to understanding both the island itself and the reasons why the survivors are there.

I suppose they could completely minimise the Others for some type of twisted advancement of plot, but that would debase the entire show in my opinion.

The first five minutes of the finale sure made the Others and everyone else for that matter seem like mere complimentary characters to the series. You wonder what is really important now out of all the Dharma, Losties, Desmond and Penny story when looking at what they laid out in the first few minutes. Hopefully there is some backstory to the Black Rock and other stuff but it sure seems like that is miniscule in size to what they're trying to do with this battle between Jacob and his scorned man lover.

cracksky 05-14-09 11:29 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 
Jacob visited Hugo pre-316. Specifically telling him he (Jacob) was not dead and that he (Hugo) was not cursed but blessed. He certainly was convincing because Hurley did not want to go back to the island.

Is that Charlie's guitar case?

The question is: is Jacob good or evil?

The scene I have trouble is with Nadia and Sayid. Does Jacob distract Sayid away to save him or to guarantee Nadia's death so that Sayid will then work for Ben.

I thought Sayid was shown a picture and told that she was killed in L.A. by Widmore's people. This is what gave him his motivation to kill for Ben. Now we see he was there next to her when it happened?

Is the Jacob we see before 815 different than before 316? Is the reason to come to the island different? 'Christian' helped Locke leave.

JZ1276 05-14-09 11:54 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by ivelostr2 (Post 9444983)
Im a few pages behind here, but catching up...I didn't think any of the things he did in the beginning were really helpful. Getting Kate out of trouble, assuring she wouldn't be caught and disciplined. Giving Sawyer the pen to continuing to write his letter. Distracting Sayid long enough for his chick to get smashed...i think the first 2 seemed helpful, but in the grand scheme of things they were detrimental, and leading down dark paths...

But I think in some way everything Jacob did lead to the Losties getting to the Island in some way...

Also, after seeing the opening scene where Blackshirt said he wanted to kill Jacob but was unable to reminded me of the episode where Ben confronts Widmore and Widmore asked if he came to kill him and Ben said something like "You know I can't do that because it's against the rules".

Maybe there is more to Ben/Widmore than we know.

Sir Talos 05-14-09 11:58 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 
It's easy to write off the whole past of the show with something as game changing as the rivalry of superpowers going on that was never suspected. However, the show's characters clearly are important to Jacob. We were carefully shown that he visited them one by one, Kate, Sawyer, Locke, Jack, Sayid, Hurley, etc. Jacob has/had a purpose in mind for them and what we have seen over the last 5 seasons is his plan playing out. JJ Abrahms is all about mystery and that's what I love about it. It doesn't matter to me if this is all planned out or not, once it's complete that will be the story. So I don't judge the show by whether episode one is completely congruent with episode one-hundred, but rather how much entertainment I get out of each episode.

Michael Corvin 05-15-09 12:23 AM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by cracksky (Post 9445288)

Is that Charlie's guitar case?

I think so. Just one more element in helping recreate the events of 815.

Originally Posted by Sir Talos (Post 9445337)
JJ Abrahms is all about mystery and that's what I love about it.

:lol: I don't think Abrams has had shit to do with the show in 4.5 years. He co-wrote and directed the pilot and came back for a writing credit on the season 3 premier. That's it.

No matter how it all ends, Lindelof and Cuse either take all the credit or all the blame.

GenPion 05-15-09 12:30 AM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 
J.J. Abrams doesn't even run the show. This is Damon Lindelof's and Carlton Cuse's Baby. They are married and this is their freaky love child. ;)

And to those of you saying this wasn't all planned out from the start: of course it wasn't. But they have a plan now and have for years. It involves everything we have seen on the show thus far as well. We will have mysteries solved that have been in our thoughts for years, we will get resolution (to story arcs and to character arcs) and a LOT will go down this upcoming final season. Damon Lindelof once said in an interview that his hope is to make the final season the best one -- to make it all worthwhile. The writer's know how much the show means to their fans and it means a lot to them to. They are going to do everything in their power to make it the best conclusion they can possibly make it. It will mean a lot of hard work for them but these writers are extremely creative and can pull it off. It is a disservice to their hard work to suggest they don't know where they are leading us at this point, or to question whether or not they intend to resolve past mysteries that they raised. Let's just wait and see how well it's done. I personally couldn't be more excited.

I can't wait for next season to see Claire again and to find out what happened to her. Was anyone else worried that she wasn't touched by Jacob? I wonder if that is important, and if it has something to do with her son Aaron and the fact he can't be raised by anyone else... I still think we might see an adult Aaron in this story. This mystery has always been one of my favorites on Lost and it's been great seeing them getting back to it in Season 4 onward with the separation of Claire from Aaron and Kate raising him. I also can't wait to see the resolution on Claire getting into a helicopter with Aaron. Obviously, I think, this will still happen somehow on the show -- but when and how is a good question. And what child? It won't be Aaron. So what kid will it be?

Unless of course the next season is all the other seasons played out again only differently. I'll admit that thought has crossed my mind. That would also be an interesting way to help show us the answers to various mysteries. And, man, those whispers are still driving me nuts...

I love Lost, but what a mind****. It'll be a LONG nine month wait to the final season. Let's hope it's all worth it. :)

P.S. - It will be.

golden_rod 05-15-09 02:11 AM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by dsa_shea (Post 9445190)
Hopefully there is some backstory to the Black Rock and other stuff but it sure seems like that is miniscule in size to what they're trying to do with this battle between Jacob and his scorned man lover.

The Black Rock was carrying Magnus Hanso, great grandfather of Alvar Hanso of the Hanso Foundation. It was revealed on the map of all the Dharma stations that his grave is at the site of the Black Rock.

It has to be quite important to the story because we know that Alvar Hanso bankrolled the Dharma Initiative in an attempt to change the Valenzetti Equation, which predicts when mankind extinguishes itself as a species. The numbers of the equation are the numbers that Hurley won the lotto with & the numbers that had to be entered in The Swan.

Now we just found out that Jacob himself "brought" the Black Rock to the island as part of his alleged "game" between him and the Blackshirt. So, it's no coincidence that one of the men on the Black Rock is related to the man who essentially implanted the Dharma team on the island.

My (sort-of) theory is that Hanso & Co. are attempting to beat the "Gods" (Jacob and Blackshirt) at their own game by counteracting their moves. It would certainly make sense why The Others, working as disciples of Jacob, slaughtered the entire Dharma Initiative during The Purge.

dino88 05-15-09 02:34 AM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by s}{ammer (Post 9444142)
I am hoping they won't have time to tell that story again. They have a lot of stuff to cover and only one season to do it.

I'm almost positive they are going straight back to the love triangle. I was actually waiting for Juliet to die during the finale, because I knew she had to be out of the picture for the writers to get back to their favorite "relationship."


Originally Posted by dsa_shea (Post 9444626)
I guess it is also safe to assume that Charlie's guitar is in the case and not something else and that is what Hurley brought back to the island.

Maybe they will collect everything Charlie (ring, guitar) and build some kind of clone Charlie who will eat the smoke monster.

Or maybe Charlie is the answer to everything. He doped everyone up on the flight and this is all one long strange trip. Bernard and Rose are the only sober ones and are trying to talk sense into the rest of the passengers. They will all snap out of it and find themselves in the Hudson River. Jacob=Captain Sully

Michael Corvin 05-15-09 07:33 AM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by golden_rod (Post 9445446)
The Black Rock was carrying Magnus Hanso, great grandfather of Alvar Hanso of the Hanso Foundation. It was revealed on the map of all the Dharma stations that his grave is at the site of the Black Rock.

It has to be quite important to the story because we know that Alvar Hanso bankrolled the Dharma Initiative in an attempt to change the Valenzetti Equation, which predicts when mankind extinguishes itself as a species. The numbers of the equation are the numbers that Hurley won the lotto with & the numbers that had to be entered in The Swan.


Now we just found out that Jacob himself "brought" the Black Rock to the island as part of his alleged "game" between him and the Blackshirt. So, it's no coincidence that one of the men on the Black Rock is related to the man who essentially implanted the Dharma team on the island.

My (sort-of) theory is that Hanso & Co. are attempting to beat the "Gods" (Jacob and Blackshirt) at their own game by counteracting their moves. It would certainly make sense why The Others, working as disciples of Jacob, slaughtered the entire Dharma Initiative during The Purge.

What? I don't recall them ever covering such information on the show. Are you reading spoiler sites and posting stuff here? If that is the case, please don't.

Palaver 05-15-09 08:15 AM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by Michael Corvin (Post 9445608)
What? I don't recall them ever covering such information on the show. Are you reading spoiler sites and posting stuff here? If that is the case, please don't.

I think all the Hanso stuff was part of the Lost Experience from a few years ago. It was part of a side story that may or may not be canon.

I'm thinking if it was important to the story, it would have been mentioned more on the show by now.

whotony 05-15-09 08:27 AM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by Palaver (Post 9445683)
I'm thinking if it was important to the story, it would have been mentioned more on the show by now.

just like the competition between jacob and the other guy.

Mazje 05-15-09 08:35 AM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 
My opinion is that the ultimate "point" of the show is the battle between Jacob and whoever his adversary is, but everyone has had a role to play in that battle. So while the Dharma Initiative was a big mystery/part of the show for a couple of season, it was ultimately just another player/pawn. Same for Desmond, Others, Survivors of 815, Survivors of 316, Desmond, etc.

We're essentially joining a story when it's almost done, and learning more about it through the eyes of a major player late in the game (Jack, Kate, etc.). The more they learn about the island, the more they learn about the big conflict (plus, we are given more information than they are, such as the flashback on the beach to Jacob).

If the story were being told chronologically, it would make more sense the first time through, but ultimately wouldn't be as interesting/dramatic.

This reasoning also helps explain poor writing/bad planning/etc. of things like Walt, Nikki and Paulo, etc.

Palaver 05-15-09 08:52 AM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by whotony (Post 9445731)
just like the competition between jacob and the other guy.

Good point.

I'm just saying that the Hanso stuff hasn't been mention much (if at all) on the show and therefore isn't canon.

But you're right, it may be crucial stuff in the last season. I just kinda doubt it, personally.

Michael Corvin 05-15-09 09:10 AM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by Palaver (Post 9445773)
Good point.

I'm just saying that the Hanso stuff hasn't been mention much (if at all) on the show and therefore isn't canon.

But you're right, it may be crucial stuff in the last season. I just kinda doubt it, personally.

It may be crucial in the end but thus far, Damon and Carlton have made it more than clear on the podcast that if it isn't in the show, it isn't canon.

Flave 05-15-09 09:21 AM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by TLwizard (Post 9444845)
I think the imagery we see on the island is all human construct that gives clues to the nature of the gods or demi-gods or whatever they are. We would all do better to go and read Joseph Campbell.

I agree. I was going to bring up Joseph Campbell in my response to Shammer (? not sure what that character is in his name) before I decided to just drop it.

I don't think that the powers-that-be at Lost want to associate themselves with any given religion or mythology. Lost is all about using a rich and diverse set of Campbellian (is there such a word?) SYMBOLS in which to hide and present its mysteries. They clearly borrow from both Judeo-Christian and Egyptian culture for this symbolism and they are not shy about mixing the two. So you will see a statue holding an ankh while a character stands under it wearing a necklace with a cross. We also have to look beyond the obvious symbols. As Campbell would tell you, mythological symbolism isn't limited to icons and pictograms and hieroglyphics. It also includes heroes and archetypes and metaphor and Lost is chock-a-block with all of the above.

I think anyone who tries to pigeon-hole Lost's symbolism into one specific framework is doing him/herself a disservice.

cracksky 05-15-09 10:43 AM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 
About the white screen at the end: I'm fairly certain it's from the bomb and not a flash. The previous flashes were gradual and accompanied a buzzing sound. This just happened in an instant. All previous end titles ended with a black screen then LOST in white. Because the screen was already white they chose to put the LOST letters in black instead of going to a black screen after the white out.

dsa_shea 05-15-09 11:10 AM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by cracksky (Post 9446003)
About the white screen at the end: I'm fairly certain it's from the bomb and not a flash. The previous flashes were gradual and accompanied a buzzing sound. This just happened in an instant. All previous end titles ended with a black screen then LOST in white. Because the screen was already white they chose to put the LOST letters in black instead of going to a black screen after the white out.

I tend to believe that it has more significance than them just not wanting to go back to a black screen and then fading out.

Birrman54 05-15-09 11:13 AM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 
didn't the season with Desmond turning the key end in a white flash, yet go to normal credits?

taa455 05-15-09 11:14 AM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by redrum (Post 9444553)
more i think about it, the more i think the flash at the end is one final time travel

I think so. I think whatever happened at the end (either the bomb went off or it was another "flash") transported Jack/Kate/Sawyer back to the present which is of course what Jacob was talking about "they're coming". I also think Jacob is not really dead, but his physical body is burned up, so now he needs a new body. Maybe Jack has to die to become the "new Jacob" which would set up Jack/John being the immortal arch-enemies. The writers have been setting up Jack/John as opposites since the beginning with the faith vs. science stuff and all their leadership conflicts. I bet next season we will see a final conflict setting up between Locke/Ben and Jack/Richard.

This is all pure speculation and I have no idea what will play out. lol


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