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-   -   Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09 (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/tv-talk/554954-lost-2-hour-season-finale-incident-5-13-09-a.html)

headrippa 05-14-09 06:53 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 
If Jack resets everything, Locke never got to the island, therefore wouldn't Jacob have never been killed by zombie Locke?

dsa_shea 05-14-09 07:28 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by headrippa (Post 9444699)
If Jack resets everything, Locke never got to the island, therefore wouldn't Jacob have never been killed by zombie Locke?

Just the conversation that me and a buddy had on the phone not even 5 minutes ago.

JZ1276 05-14-09 07:36 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 
If Jacob's nemesis is Locke and smokey, why was Locke surprised when Ben told him that his dead daughter told him to obey everything Locke says? Locke asked him "when did this happen" and "so you have to listen to everything I tell you to do"? Maybe smokey is Jacob. Jacob tells people what to do (as Christian telling Locke to turn the wheel, as Bens daughter telling Ben to obey Locke) but still leaving them to make a choice (at the end of the episode Jacob told Ben he has a choice whether or not to kill him)

s}{ammer 05-14-09 07:42 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 
The thing I can't understand is how so many of you are still looking for a biblical solution to this? Jacob was making Egyptian tapestry. He was living in the base of an Egyptian statue, regardless of which god it represented. The temple underground covered in hieroglyphics. How can so many of you look at this and still see biblical? It is Egyptian, why else paint the picture this way?

Jimmy James 05-14-09 07:57 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 
I don't think it's strictly Biblical or Egyptian. I think if it is pseudo-religious, they're going to freely mix their metaphors.

Deftones 05-14-09 08:02 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by s}{ammer (Post 9444753)
The thing I can't understand is how so many of you are still looking for a biblical solution to this? Jacob was making Egyptian tapestry. He was living in the base of an Egyptian statue, regardless of which god it represented. The temple underground covered in hieroglyphics. How can so many of you look at this and still see biblical? It is Egyptian, why else paint the picture this way?

why does it have to be about one or the other?

Aphex Twin 05-14-09 08:04 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by headrippa (Post 9444699)
If Jack resets everything, Locke never got to the island, therefore wouldn't Jacob have never been killed by zombie Locke?

But if Jack reset everything, how would he have gotten on the island in the first place in order to leave the island and get back on the island, travel back in time, and reset everything?

tlwizard 05-14-09 08:19 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by s}{ammer (Post 9444753)
The thing I can't understand is how so many of you are still looking for a biblical solution to this? Jacob was making Egyptian tapestry. He was living in the base of an Egyptian statue, regardless of which god it represented. The temple underground covered in hieroglyphics. How can so many of you look at this and still see biblical? It is Egyptian, why else paint the picture this way?

I see it as Egyptian. But that doesn't mean there can't also be biblical allusions as well. Egyptian imagery may be the most prevalent imagery this season, but there's been plenty of Judeo-Christian imagery in the past. I think any good storytelling is going to pull from numerous sources. But if there's going to be a honest discussion about any of this, people can only pull from what they know and a lot of people know the biblical story and not as many people know the story of ancient Egyptian religion. Just imagine if there had been a great flood during the show... most people would say "Oh, that's like the flood of Noah." Others would say, "No, this is like the flood of Incan mythology" or the flood of Norse mythology. And so on

In addition, I've appreciated some of the input you've provided in terms of some of the Egyptian mythology. I never thought your correlation between Egyptian story and Biblical story to be offensive but I can understand how others might read into it as offensive.

The truth is, I don't think this is gonna be as easy as "all of this is from the bible" or "all of this is egyptian." I think the imagery we see on the island is all human construct that gives clues to the nature of the gods or demi-gods or whatever they are. We would all do better to go and read Joseph Campbell.

s}{ammer 05-14-09 08:25 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by Deftones (Post 9444804)
why does it have to be about one or the other?

because it is the way they wrote it. If it were a biblical issue, then we would be talking good vs. evil, God vs. Satan. Since it is Egyptian it is not held to a monotheistic viewpoint. It is neither good nor bad, simply two divine beings who use us as pawns in their game. How can Jacob be a good guy when he is the one called the black pearl to the island in order to start the game, a game it seems he has been starting forever?

This can not be God vs. Satan unless God too thought so little of people. This would not fit into the Christian ideas of God and the devil. God is the only all powerful being so if he really wanted to he could easily destroy the devil.

In this story however, we have two equally powerful beings and they can not, for an as yet unknown reason, kill each other. This is why I see no other way for this to go than this to be Horus vs. Seth(Set). They are the only two that seem to fit the profile, minus all that lettuce talk from earlier. :)

Deftones 05-14-09 08:31 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by s}{ammer (Post 9444853)
because it is the way they wrote it.

so just because there are some egyptian themes no other possibilities are acceptable? seriously? that's very narrow minded. you've seen the shit the writers of this show have thrown at us. while you may end up being right, why would you limit the possibility of what is going on just because a few things make it seem that way?

dsa_shea 05-14-09 08:39 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 
I just hope that next season they give us a bit more backstory on Jacob and his nemesis and not just leave it to our imaginations like they did with Libby.

s}{ammer 05-14-09 08:40 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by Deftones (Post 9444862)
so just because there are some egyptian themes no other possibilities are acceptable? seriously? that's very narrow minded. you've seen the shit the writers of this show have thrown at us. while you may end up being right, why would you limit the possibility of what is going on just because a few things make it seem that way?

Narrow minded? Please, there have been hints toward the Egyptian ideas from early on. Anyone remember what showed up on the timer when they didn't punch in the numbers ontime? It wasn't Hebrew. The reason I can't see this being God and Satan is simple. Who would want to worship a God that treated them like pawns in a game? Jacob is not a good guy, he only differs from his enemy by certain attributes that we have already discussed, but he brings humans to the island to start the game over. He has his hands in many deaths on the island. So how would he fit in to Christianity? Also, as I have stated before, what we have seen of these two is that they are equals, but is Satan the equal to God?

s}{ammer 05-14-09 08:42 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by dsa_shea (Post 9444886)
I just hope that next season they give us a bit more backstory on Jacob and his nemesis and not just leave it to our imaginations like they did with Libby.

I would rofl if they leave a bunch of the story open ended and then show a preview for the first lost movie coming in 2011. :)

riley_dude 05-14-09 08:46 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by ericmylad (Post 9443472)
I'm still in shock that after all this time Jacob turned out to be Hulk Hogan's brother from "No Holds Barred". Who knew? ;)

He was actually quite good on the first season of Dexter.

dsa_shea 05-14-09 08:51 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by riley_dude (Post 9444904)
He was actually quite good on the first season of Dexter.

He was great at making you hate his character. That's why I'm not so sure if he really is the "good" guy in this show as the writers are always trying to throw us off.

golden_rod 05-14-09 08:54 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by s}{ammer (Post 9444853)
because it is the way they wrote it. If it were a biblical issue, then we would be talking good vs. evil, God vs. Satan. Since it is Egyptian it is not held to a monotheistic viewpoint. It is neither good nor bad, simply two divine beings who use us as pawns in their game. How can Jacob be a good guy when he is the one called the black pearl to the island in order to start the game, a game it seems he has been starting forever?

This can not be God vs. Satan unless God too thought so little of people. This would not fit into the Christian ideas of God and the devil. God is the only all powerful being so if he really wanted to he could easily destroy the devil.

In this story however, we have two equally powerful beings and they can not, for an as yet unknown reason, kill each other. This is why I see no other way for this to go than this to be Horus vs. Seth(Set). They are the only two that seem to fit the profile, minus all that lettuce talk from earlier. :)

Regardless if this is all true, you simply cannot deny that Christianity has been the most referenced religion throughout the history of the show, so it isn't as if people are forcing biblical parallels onto the story as if they're trying to put square pegs into round holes. The writers practically beat us over the head with the shit, from character names to the baptism of Christ in dream sequences.

nodeerforamonth 05-14-09 08:58 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 
I'm not reading 18 pages of this, but am I the only one who thought of "Battlestar Galactica" when watching this episode?

RichC2 05-14-09 08:59 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by nodeerforamonth (Post 9444942)
I'm not reading 18 pages of this, but am I the only one who thought of "Battlestar Galactica" when watching this episode?

Nope! But I wasn't one of them.

Pharoh 05-14-09 09:06 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by golden_rod (Post 9444673)


I very highly doubt that everything will be answered. They've already admitted that they're never going to revisit Libby.

I understand and fully accept this. However, I don't put the origin, nature, and purpose of the Others, the only constant aside from the Losties, to be in the category of Libby, Ecko, Claire, or even Walt. Based on all that we have ever known, they are essential to understanding both the island itself and the reasons why the survivors are there.

I suppose they could completely minimise the Others for some type of twisted advancement of plot, but that would debase the entire show in my opinion.

ivelostr2 05-14-09 09:13 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by DthRdrX (Post 9442915)
When he was pushed ... ;)

But Jacob wasn't in a spot to prevent it either. He seemd like he was looking to kill Nadia, or save Sayid. One of those two ... ?

Im a few pages behind here, but catching up...I didn't think any of the things he did in the beginning were really helpful. Getting Kate out of trouble, assuring she wouldn't be caught and disciplined. Giving Sawyer the pen to continuing to write his letter. Distracting Sayid long enough for his chick to get smashed...i think the first 2 seemed helpful, but in the grand scheme of things they were detrimental, and leading down dark paths...

spainlinx0 05-14-09 09:21 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by Pharoh (Post 9444969)
I understand and fully accept this. However, I don't put the origin, nature, and purpose of the Others, the only constant aside from the Losties, to be in the category of Libby, Ecko, Claire, or even Walt. Based on all that we have ever known, they are essential to understanding both the island itself and the reasons why the survivors are there.

I suppose they could completely minimise the Others for some type of twisted advancement of plot, but that would debase the entire show in my opinion.

To be honest with you, I think we're going to find out in the last season that they very obviously had no great plan for this show back in season one. Now they are frantically tying up loose ends. I imagine them sitting in the writer's room and coming up with these "others" that hide in the jungle. They thought "holy shit that would be incredibly creepy, let's do that." Unfortunately now they are going to have a tough time having an explanation that makes complete sense with how they have been portrayed subsequently. I'm hoping to be surprised, but after this finale, I have a very bad feeling about what's going to happen.

GenPion 05-14-09 09:23 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 
My mind is still stuck on this finale. What a way for them to end the season... I can't even begin to imagine how intense next season will be with all the story threads finally weaving themselves together and with the big mysteries resolved and the major closure. Anyone else think next season will be the best yet if everything they have set up comes into play and pays off well? They have set everything up to be truly epic. This is the best television I have ever seen.

Pharoh 05-14-09 09:28 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by TLwizard (Post 9444845)
I see it as Egyptian. But that doesn't mean there can't also be biblical allusions as well. Egyptian imagery may be the most prevalent imagery this season, but there's been plenty of Judeo-Christian imagery in the past. I think any good storytelling is going to pull from numerous sources. But if there's going to be a honest discussion about any of this, people can only pull from what they know and a lot of people know the biblical story and not as many people know the story of ancient Egyptian religion. Just imagine if there had been a great flood during the show... most people would say "Oh, that's like the flood of Noah." Others would say, "No, this is like the flood of Incan mythology" or the flood of Norse mythology. And so on

In addition, I've appreciated some of the input you've provided in terms of some of the Egyptian mythology. I never thought your correlation between Egyptian story and Biblical story to be offensive but I can understand how others might read into it as offensive.

Just to be clear, I was personally not offended at all, and in fact also appreciate comparative discussions. I merely took exception to the fallacy based upon shoddy and incomplete scholarship, some simply made up, that equates Horus with Jesus. (The shoddy and incomplete referring to folks like Humphreys, Acharya, and Massey and not any posters here.)



Originally Posted by TLwizard (Post 9444845)
The truth is, I don't think this is gonna be as easy as "all of this is from the bible" or "all of this is egyptian." I think the imagery we see on the island is all human construct that gives clues to the nature of the gods or demi-gods or whatever they are. We would all do better to go and read Joseph Campbell.

:up:

s}{ammer 05-14-09 09:32 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by spainlinx0 (Post 9445000)
To be honest with you, I think we're going to find out in the last season that they very obviously had no great plan for this show back in season one. Now they are frantically tying up loose ends. I imagine them sitting in the writer's room and coming up with these "others" that hide in the jungle. They thought "holy shit that would be incredibly creepy, let's do that." Unfortunately now they are going to have a tough time having an explanation that makes complete sense with how they have been portrayed subsequently. I'm hoping to be surprised, but after this finale, I have a very bad feeling about what's going to happen.

You might have a valid point. I started watching between season 3 and 4, so I ended up watching the first 3 seasons back to back to back. When I first got into it, I read that the show was originally supposed to be Gilligan's Island meets survivor and that JJ only agreed to do it if he could add a supernatural aspect as well. Then didn't JJ really leave the show more or less after the first season and he left the other two as showrunners? I figured this was why the show seemed to change so much between seasons, they were trying so hard to figure out where they wanted to go with it.

Pharoh 05-14-09 09:53 PM

Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
 

Originally Posted by spainlinx0 (Post 9445000)
To be honest with you, I think we're going to find out in the last season that they very obviously had no great plan for this show back in season one. Now they are frantically tying up loose ends. I imagine them sitting in the writer's room and coming up with these "others" that hide in the jungle. They thought "holy shit that would be incredibly creepy, let's do that." Unfortunately now they are going to have a tough time having an explanation that makes complete sense with how they have been portrayed subsequently. I'm hoping to be surprised, but after this finale, I have a very bad feeling about what's going to happen.

I agree on all counts, and am resigned to accepting that. It seems that that the contradictions between the scattershot approach of the first two seasons and the overarching story imagined after that are going to be extremely difficult to resolve.

And it is precisely this conflict that leads some of us to occasionally criticise the recent direction of the show, and to voice fears, as you have, about where it is going. Things such as notably uncharacteristic actions undertaken by central players, plot advancement at the expense of character development, and a boatload of loose ends that will likely never be resolved, give me pause. I still believe the show is the best written and filmed show on network TV, and enjoy it immensely, but I now have a nagging sentiment of what if.


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