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-   -   30 Days - 8/23/06 "Abortion" (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/tv-talk/475420-30-days-8-23-06-abortion.html)

slop101 08-23-06 11:58 PM

30 Days - 8/23/06 "Abortion"
 
It was sort of a low key episode - which is actually why this show is so good, as it doesn't rely on over-the-top histrionics prevelent in so many other reality shows.

Each person was very believable, and even though I side with the pro-choice chick, it was obvious that the pastor and his wife genuinely cared for the pergnant women and wanted to help, even though their agenda was pro-life.

The show really seemed to side with the pro-choice side of the debate, and made it seem like the logical thing, even though it's not (as they said) clear-cut, and most people go down the middle.

guywall 08-24-06 06:11 PM

Thought it was interesting as well. As a po-life person, there were some interesting points that came up in discussion with my wife while we were watching the show:

First, the question of when life begins is a big factor in the disagreement, I think. The women said she did not kill anybody and is not a murderer becuase she did not feel the abortion she had was ending a life. My logic makes it hard to see that logic. When would it have become a life? With a heart beat? Brain waves? Able to survive outside the mother's body? If both sides could acknowledge that difference, I think more rational conversations could be had.

Second, they interviewed the family of the girl who had a back-ally abortion, which was tough. You cannot criticize them for their feelings, or what their daughter did. As a non-teenage guy, I think the girl made some bad choices - I'm not talking about getting pregnat - but with Planned Parenthoods or even her pediatrician, she could have talked to someone who would have helped her get to wherever she needed to go to get a professional abortion. Who knows what she was experieincing that she felt she couldn't ask a professional.
On the same point, I thought they could have balanced that story with the story of a woman who did have an abortion and regretted it and the effects that had on her life.

Third, the billboards, trucks, and posters of aborted babies is unecessary. From a pro-life side, I can see the arguement of "People don't know what they are doing to these babies when they get an abortion - we need to show them" but not like they were doing. If someone is willing to take a pamplet from you, and you feel like you need to let people know, show it in that.

Lastly, it surprised me in the cartoon survey data segment, that 10% say a third trimester abortion is still OK. Seems like that is a fringe of the pro-choice extreme, since many third trimester babies can survive on their own.

Anyway, I don't want to start a debate or have people slinging stuff at each other here. I just thought the show was a good discussion piece and helped us talk about a tough issue.

slop101 08-24-06 08:54 PM


Originally Posted by guywall
First, the question of when life begins is a big factor in the disagreement.

I agree, and not to start an argument (I'm just stating my opinion on this), but I usually approach that factor by asking when one's birthday is. No person's birthday is the moment of their conception or when their heart beats or whatever. It's when they exit the womb. And until they do exit, they are a part of the pregnant woman's body, who should be free to do what she wants with her body. I may disagree with her choice, but it should be her's to make.

Can I also state that anyone who gets pregnant without wanting to is just stupid? (obviously, besides cases of rape) I mean, I've had plenty of sex with plenty of women - I've never got any of them pregnant. And it didn't take a lot of work, planning or thought for either party. Also, it only takes one person to prevent a pergnancy, but it takes both to cause it. [/rant]

Timber 08-24-06 09:07 PM


Originally Posted by slop101
Can I also state that anyone who gets pregnant without wanting to is just stupid? (obviously, besides cases of rape) I mean, I've had plenty of sex with plenty of women - I've never got any of them pregnant. And it didn't take a lot of work, planning or thought for either party. Also, it only takes one person to prevent a pergnancy, but it takes both to cause it. [/rant]



So the fact that no form of birth control is 100% effective has no bearing on your stupidity argument?

gotrice487 08-24-06 09:19 PM

Interesting episode but I found myself quite bored through many parts

slop101 08-24-06 09:23 PM


Originally Posted by Timber
So the fact that no form of birth control is 100% effective has no bearing on your stupidity argument?

Well, obviously, just like rape, it does have bearing. And while it might not be 100% effective, most of them are about 99.999% effective, IOW, insignificant enough that I felt I didn't need to mention it.

DodgingCars 08-24-06 10:37 PM


Originally Posted by guywall
If both sides could acknowledge that difference, I think more rational conversations could be had.

IMO, this is the REAL debate -- but unfortunately it's rarely discussed when the heated arguements start -- either that or you start hearing the extremes (it's a parasite or you're a baby killer!).

When people start talking about when life begins, I think there is a clearer middle ground (which Morgan hinted at). Most Americans aren't extreme either way.

For me, I've struggled with this, because I don't think that you can PROVE when life begins -- so then it's becomes a matter of belief. Yet, I do believe we can find a middle ground and while I consider myself (moderately) pro-life, I would settle for brain activity as the determination of when life begins as this seems to be the most scientific evidence of human life.

Anyway...

As I mentioned in a previous thread, prior to my wife and I getting married, she had gotten pregnant out of wedlock and stayed at His Nesting Place, where she gave birth to a son that she gave up for adoption.

Pastor Al and Judy came to our wedding when we got married:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/kennyjohnson/55220016/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://static.flickr.com/24/55220016_a3ba8622b5.jpg" width="500" height="320" alt="Judy, Al, Hope, Kenny" /></a>

tvpuff 08-25-06 01:55 AM


Originally Posted by slop101
Well, obviously, just like rape, it does have bearing. And while it might not be 100% effective, most of them are about 99.999% effective, IOW, insignificant enough that I felt I didn't need to mention it.

This is why people tell you to read the condom wrapper.

Cusm 08-25-06 09:34 AM

I have a big problem with all the adoption talk. There is a high percent of mother's that back out of adoption, plus as the girl stated, adoption is great if it is a healthy white baby, but if you stray from these two things adoption becomes harder.
While I am pro-choice (real easy for me since I am male) I do think there needs to be guidelines. I have known girls that have used abortion as their choice of birth control (around 7 or 8) and this makes me ill. But the states that are banning or only if the mother's life is at risk makes me just as ill.

I also think they need to make it illegal for anyone to protest a clinic. It is hard enough for a lot (perhaps all) of these women, and they have over-zealous, self righteous SOB calling her a murder on a bull horn. I always wonder how many of these people are like the preacher featured and would offer a women a place to stay and help her until she could provide a life for her and her child or adopt them outright, the percent would probably not surprise me.

kvrdave 08-25-06 12:38 PM


Originally Posted by Cusm
I also think they need to make it illegal for anyone to protest a clinic.

I tend to agree, but the can of worms that opens up isn't worth it. But I share the sentiment.

I faded in and out on the episode, so I didn't see this brought up, and I wish it had been. What about the father's rights? I know the "woman's body, woman's choice" argument, but to me there still seems to be an injustice that men have no voice in the matter, yet do have the bulk of the financial responsibility. I don't think there is a way to make it "even" but I would have liked to see some discussion on it.

FatTony 08-25-06 01:16 PM


Originally Posted by slop101
Well, obviously, just like rape, it does have bearing. And while it might not be 100% effective, most of them are about 99.999% effective, IOW, insignificant enough that I felt I didn't need to mention it.

I think condoms are only 98% effective, and to my knowledge, they're the most commonly used contraceptive. I have a friend who actually got pregnant because a condom broke.

Anyway, I'm gonna have to try and catch this episode next time it's on. As a pro-choicer, I've yet to actually hear rational arguments to outlaw a woman's ability to make that decision for herself. But as guywall said, the major factor is agreeing on when life actually begins.

Just out of curiosity, did the episode talk about Plan B or RU486 at all?

Tommy Ceez 08-25-06 05:01 PM


Originally Posted by slop101
I agree, and not to start an argument (I'm just stating my opinion on this), but I usually approach that factor by asking when one's birthday is. No person's birthday is the moment of their conception or when their heart beats or whatever. It's when they exit the womb.

So an arbitrary, meaningless date developed centuries ago is your lock solid definition for the moment when LIFE begins?

slop101 08-25-06 05:43 PM

Short answer: yes

Long answer: I never said that's when life begins, and you took my quote out of context. The main thrust of my argument was that as long as the baby is inside the mother, it should be up to her to do with as she pleases.

DodgingCars 08-25-06 06:16 PM


Originally Posted by FatTony
As a pro-choicer, I've yet to actually hear rational arguments to outlaw a woman's ability to make that decision for herself.

Killling a human life isn't a rational arguement against abortion?


But as guywall said, the major factor is agreeing on when life actually begins.
Exactly. Maybe you meant to say, you haven't heard a rational arguement as to why fertilization/conception is the beginning of human life?

To that, I would answer -- I don't think there are many rational arguments at all as to when life begins, yet most Americans are against 3rd trimester abortions, so it seems to me that most believe it begins before birth.

To me, the most rational (as in, that science, not faith or belief support it) argument for when life begins is brain activity, which I believe starts somewhere around the 5th month.

While I tend to lean more toward conception as my personal belief, I would accept brain activity as the legal definition and limitation on abortion (i.e. no abortions after x weeks unless mother's life is in danger.)

DodgingCars 08-25-06 06:19 PM


Originally Posted by slop101
Short answer: yes

Long answer: I never said that's when life begins, and you took my quote out of context. The main thrust of my argument was that as long as the baby is inside the mother, it should be up to her to do with as she pleases.

I guess I don't understand this arguement. To me... the arguement lies solely with when human life begins. I don't care where the living human resides, I believe it has a right to life. Killing a human life simply because it lives inside a person doesn't seem anymore right to me. It's still murder.

Now... again.. That's why I think that when life begins is the crux of the arguement for the vast majority of Americans. Both your view and the conception (no abortion anytime) view are the extremes Morgan spoke of.

DodgingCars 08-25-06 06:21 PM

By the way, in case you think no one can ever change their mind on abortion... My view on abortion's legality was mostly changed due to Movielib's arguement for brain activity as the measurement for when life begins.

slop101 08-25-06 07:57 PM


Originally Posted by DodgingCars
I guess I don't understand this arguement. To me... the arguement lies solely with when human life begins. I don't care where the living human resides, I believe it has a right to life. Killing a human life simply because it lives inside a person doesn't seem anymore right to me. It's still murder.

I'm not saying that the baby is not alive, or that it isn't murder, but the baby is reliant on being inside the mother in order to live. No mother, no life. And if the mother truly doesn't want the baby inside her, who are we to tell her otherwise?


Originally Posted by DodgingCars
Now... again.. That's why I think that when life begins is the crux of the arguement for the vast majority of Americans. Both your view and the conception (no abortion anytime) view are the extremes Morgan spoke of.

I actually think abortion is flat-out wrong and feel that if you got pregnant, you should suck it up and be resposible about it. But, just like I don't want people telling me what to do, unless I'm the father, I'm not about tell a pregnant woman what she should do. So therefore, all options should be open to her.

DodgingCars 08-25-06 10:35 PM


Originally Posted by slop101
I'm not saying that the baby is not alive, or that it isn't murder, but the baby is reliant on being inside the mother in order to live. No mother, no life. And if the mother truly doesn't want the baby inside her, who are we to tell her otherwise?

I actually think abortion is flat-out wrong and feel that if you got pregnant, you should suck it up and be resposible about it. But, just like I don't want people telling me what to do, unless I'm the father, I'm not about tell a pregnant woman what she should do. So therefore, all options should be open to her.

I guess I still don't see the logic in this. To me, if it's a life, it's deserves... no.. actually it should be guaranteed the right to life, no matter who is responsible for it to continue to live.

Speaking purely from the hypothetical position that we KNOW when life begins , then that fetus is a human person and guaranteed the fundamental unalienable human rights.

slop101 08-25-06 11:11 PM

I guess my point is that there's a difference. Just calling it "life" is not enough. There's self-sustaining life, then there's life that's reliant on the mother. If it's reliant on the mother, then it should be up to her to do with as she wishes. I'm not saying it doesn't deserve the right to live, but the will of the life provider (the mother) superceeds it by circumstance alone.

Shady12 08-26-06 04:03 PM

I can't even begin to comprehend how people could think a woman should have the right to kill a person just because it resides inside them and depends on them for life. Murder is murder. Also think a father should have equal say. No way in hell a woman is going to kill my baby. She doesn't have the right to chose to kill my baby just because it lives inside her.

Cusm 08-26-06 06:50 PM


Originally Posted by Rockmjd23
Sure, as long as you also make it illegal to protest a church ;).


I know I see it every day on the daily news innocent families trying to attend church are assaulted by chants of being murderers and some are actually assaulted, and the preachers are killed or kidnapped and most have weekly bomb threats and some are actually fire bombed (and 50 years ago in the south does not count).

Draven 08-27-06 12:41 AM


Originally Posted by Shady12
I can't even begin to comprehend how people could think a woman should have the right to kill a person just because it resides inside them and depends on them for life. Murder is murder.

Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being, and abortions aren't illegal. So you'll need to find another word.


Also think a father should have equal say. No way in hell a woman is going to kill my baby. She doesn't have the right to chose to kill my baby just because it lives inside her.
The woman should have FAR more say than the man. It's easy for men to say that women should do all the hard work. I love your "No way in hell a woman is going to kill my baby" - it's her baby too, she's not a suitcase made to haul your shit around for 9 months. She does EVERYTHING in a pregnancy. You do NOTHING. And you want equal say? Yeah, that makes sense.

We have two kids and we're done with pregnancy, but if abortion had come up I would have offered my opinion but ultimately deffered to my wife on whether or not we took the pregnancy to term, which is as it should be.

Shady12 08-27-06 01:31 AM

Sorry, kill.

And while she may have to do all the hard work, wouldn't give them the right to kill MY baby. That's insane. And I'm just talking about cases where she just wouldn't want a baby. If she was in danger or something like that, it's different. But being parents and deciding to have a baby and then raising the baby. It's all equal. It makes sense that I get equal say because the baby is just as much mine as hers. Just because she carries and gives birth doesn't mean she can decide to kill it. Especially if the father doesn't want his baby killed.

Groucho 08-27-06 01:39 PM


Originally Posted by Cusm
I also think they need to make it illegal for anyone to protest a clinic. It is hard enough for a lot (perhaps all) of these women, and they have over-zealous, self righteous SOB calling her a murder on a bull horn. I always wonder how many of these people are like the preacher featured and would offer a women a place to stay and help her until she could provide a life for her and her child or adopt them outright, the percent would probably not surprise me.

I agree with everything in this paragraph except the first sentence. We should not be "picking and choosing" who gets first amendment rights and who doesn't. Indeed, the first amendment is only of value if we allow those whom we disagree to have a voice. Otherwise, there's no point.

Gizmo 08-27-06 09:45 PM

I am SO not getting into this...

Can we all agree Jennifer is smoking hot?


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