Well OK, there *is* that. ;)

But I'm guessing a lot of the elements of the show that I did like (pretty much everything else), you enjoyed as well. For what it's worth, even the Earth conspiracy stuff grew on me in S4.

As for Delenn and Sheridan, I was rooting for Lennier. :p

I think this way would be best, too. I read a little of the lurkers guide, generally when I wanted some clarification on something or I was trying to remember where I was at (when I was downloading eps P2P because I was too desperate to wait for the DVD release of S4).

Lennier isn't altogether gone, Chess, don't despair. Not like Ivanova is gone.

The season is worth watching, Chess. The telepath arc some people find boring, but I think it was decent. Depends on how you feel about the whole telepath thing. It includes a couple of key moments about the telepaths (one especially in a Bester episode). The clan of telepaths led by Byron creeps people out - my wife was especially creeped out by them - and a lot of people don't seem to find the story interesting. I did. This results in lukewarm feelings about the season, along with Ivanova being gone (this story would have been a lot better with Ivanova in charge of the station). Altough unlike other parts of the show, it doesn't have the kind of rewatchability as most other parts, it's still pretty good.

And interspersed with the telepath story is an important story about the Alliance. Mandatory watching :D

The season 5 credits are awesome. The most rewatchable credits ever. I totally watch the credits (or at least the first minute or so) almost every time I watch S5. The music and the chosen soundclips really illustrate how far the show has gone since the beginning.

Glad you like the new S5 music and credits. "And so it begins" sounds so cool as the first line.

Despite people saying that season 5 is weaker than the preceding 3, I thoroughly enjoyed it. It's about the consequences and the aftermath of the two wars, and I think it has A LOT of character development. If you were impressed with the way the people evolved during the first four seasons, you will continue to be impressed with changes in season 5. Things are definitely not stagnant in the last season. On the contrary, they keep moving.......

enjoy.

Thirdspace

I'm pretty disappointed that I'm watching this movie out of order. For some reason, I got it into my head that all the movies were after S4, but this one was in the middle of S4.

At any rate, it's largely a standalone affair, and a pretty decent one. It was nice to revisit and see Ivanova again and the basic premise was pretty interesting. The production values and writing were a step or two above the average weekly episode.

Nukes seem to be pretty effective in space combat, yet nobody seems to employ them...except Sheridan.

Oddly, my favorite parts were the little romance scenes. I think I actually detected a bit of chemistry between Sheridan and Delenn, and knowing that Lyta ends up in the teep cult makes the elevator scene with Zack all the more gut wrenching.

Anyway, that out of the way, back on track...

The Paragon of Animals

OK, first of all, I'm officially weirded out by Fabio and his cult. During the course of this and the next few episodes I watched today, it's obvious that these guys are big trouble, and this Byron guy has a big time Charles Manson/David Koresh thing going on.

I've tried to get on board with this telepath arc, but so far it's leaving me a bit cold. Though considering how amazing S3 and S4 were, it would be tough not to be a bit let down.

But I press on...

BTW, the declaration was a fairly profound bit of writing.

A View from the Gallery

A view of a generic crisis from a couple of everymen...

I'm guessing that this one probably isn't terribly well regarded since it's a bit tongue in cheek, but I liked it. I'm not sure that I can defend it though, so I'll just move on.

Learning Curve

So the new Captain was on the wrong side in the war after all...and she goes off on Garabaldi. I guess she's a worthwhile replacement for Ivanova, and I do like the angle of her and Sheridan having a past.

I think we're missing some of the quirkiness from the other seasons. All of the characters, save G'Kar, have gotten kind of boring lately.

The little ranger story was kind of interesting, but inconsequential and not terribly moving.

Strange Relations

I hate when they tease me. I was kind of hopeful that Bester would get Fabio and company the hell off of B5, but I guess that was hoping for too much. Plus Lyta is apparently in the cult as well now.

My girlfriend is rooting for Zack for what it's worth.

The new Captain is a "by the book" type...sort of like Sinclair was. Know the rules and work within them.

Secrets of the Soul

So the Vorlons were behind the development of telepaths...well, no shit...though I guess they had to show it sometime. It looks like Fabio is ready to make his move.

So they finally had a straight up sex scene. And they couldn't have done that for Ivanova and Talia?!?!? :(

General Thoughts

We are off to a pretty shaky start for S5. It's like JMS doesn't know what to do with ANYBODY right now and we're back in S1 mode. Also, the way the teep-normal conflict is being handled is pretty weak. I guess they had to put something on B5 that Bester would want, but this little cult thing is laying it on a bit thick IMO. Fortunately, it looks like the arc is playing out pretty quick.

It's also probably not fair to compare with S3 and S4, which were both amazing...especially S4. I'm not sure how you top that, and I think JMS might have used up a few of his early S5 storylines in S4.

At any rate, I press on...looking forward to the finale and wondering how they'll work Ivanova back into it and the new Captain out of it (since it was apparently already shot).

This episode would have been early season 4 according to things JMS has posted and it would have been the shadows attacking rather than some random alien. I honestly think that would have all the difference to make this episode great.

Well, the only times you've ever seen Sheridan use them was in covert ways. Against the Black Star and during Into the Fire, he mined asteroids with them as traps, and in Z'Ha'Dum, he had a couple on the White Star and used the ship itself as the delivery device. I would think that any regular delivery system would be pretty easy to intercept, as it's been established that there are direct weapon countermeasures in the B5 universe which could most likely shoot any (relatively) slow-traveling rocket out of the sky.

You know how everybody's been saying that there's one really bad story and one really good story in S5? Well, the Byron stuff is the bad one. The season does improve in ways that I think you'll like.

Along with Intersections in Real Time, this is another big "love it or hate it" episode. I've seen a lot of people who say it's one of their favorite eps, but I'm in the other camp, myself, as I couldn't stand it at all. I thought showing life on B5 from the POV of one of the random station workers was a neat idea, but I absolutely could not stand Mack and Bo as characters. They were way too corny, and just plain irritating.

Well, while the viewers knew it, and Sheridan knew it, it's unknown how many other people knew it. If anything, the knowledge extended as far as the war council.

that scene is easily one of my favorite scenes of the entire show....
....it totally makes Thirdspace worth watching.....

I agreee that this is a love it or hate it episode but I'm in the love it camp. The alternate POV was interesting and I thought Mac & Bo were quirky but I agree the story would have been better served in S4 during a shadow attack.

I actually sort of like that it was a random enemy. It reminded me of the Buffy episode "The Zeppo" where it shows everything from Xander's POV. We know it's yet *another* apocalypse, but not much beyond that. If it were the Shadows, we'd want to know the whys and wherefores.

Mac and Bo had great chemistry. They were written a bit goofy, but I still bought it. Maybe I was just in the right mood for it.

Glad that resonated with someone else.

I actually really enjoy the journey that the Zack character has taken.

5 today...
Day of the Dead

Standalone episode...a bit on the goofy side. I did like the expansion on Lochley's character though.

In the Kingdom of the Blind

G'Kar and Londo can do no wrong. Period. They have just a terrific chemistry, and I can't tell you whether it's the writing or the acting, but Londo can be incredibly funny and charming one minute and incredibly dark the next...and both are completely believable. Just an amazing characterization.

Plotwise, there were no big surprises here. I assume that was a/the Drahk...which I also assume is the "good" arc this season.

Oh, and Fabio has decided to blackmail the alliance. Meh.

A Tragedy of Telepaths

A telepath episode focusing on characters I could care less about.

Thankfully the episode was saved by some brilliant bits with Londo and G'Kar.

Phoenix Rising

Bester rocked in this episode. That is one sadistic motherfucker. I loved the bit about Asimov's laws of robotics too. We've seen it in about 100 movies by now, but it's a great touch.

I actually *almost* though that Garabaldi was going to buy it based on "deconstructing" from last season. If anybody will drive you to drink, it's Bester.

Fabio had a death scene speech that would make Trinity blush, but I'm guessing he'll be back. I assume this is called Phoenix Rising for a reason.

The Ragged Edge

Ivanova is gone, Garabaldi is a wreck, Franklin is leaving...oh, and Sheridan is boring. What has become of the core B5 staff?!?!? Zach is the only one left who's even remotely interesting.

Overall, a pretty good episode on the arc that I'm actually interested in. The Garabaldi stuff was tight. Every scene with Londo and/or G'Kar continues to bring the goods.

General Thouhts

I'm still a bit disappointed so far this season, but I *was* warned, so it's to be expected. The Centauri watcher thing seems to be shaping into something worthwhile, so that's good news.

My biggest complaint right now is that with the exception of G'Kar and Londo and to a lesser degree Garabaldi and Lyta, the writers don't seem to know what to do with *anybody*. Sheridan and Delenn are boring. Lochley is boring. Lennier and Vir are barely around. Franklin is boring *and* is leaving. Zack is interesting but underused.

Seasons 3 & 4 felt focused, like they were moving forward. This season feels like the first 1.5 seasons. We're doing exposition to set something up...and the final season isn't the season for that sort of thing.

All that said, I think I'm going to like where this is going and have no intention of giving up now. Also, it should be noted that a mediocre episode of B5 is still better than 99% of the other stuff out there.

Only 10 episodes and 2 movies to go. Did I read correctly that both movies should be watched just before the finale?

I would agree with that. :)

HEHEHEHE
:)

Franklin leaving is just part of the winding down process of the show.

Your reaction to the telepath arc is pretty typical. My wife was pretty much the same way. She kept calling him Fabio, too.

The episode with Mack & Bo - I liked the idea, and I liked the fact that it is just "typical" aliens possibly destroying the station. It is a lot like the Xander-centric episode from Buffy - which when I saw it a few months back, I noted the similiarity. I always like the alternate P.O.V. thing, most typical TV wouldn't take the chance.

Just one today...had to watch Cube Zero, which was much better than that turd Hypercube. Recommended.

Anyhoo...

The Corps is Mother...

Not a bad episode, despite the noteable lack of ANY of the major characters. Unless I've forgotten something, Zack was the only one around for Bester's visit. It's odd that they wouldn't have had Garabaldi make an appearance given their recent history. Bester is the saving grace of every episode he's in, as the whole telepath thing is just boring without him.

The split personality angle was a cool red herring. I thought that dude had a watcher for a bit there...which is surely what they were going for.

They are really playing up the superiority complex of the teeps lately and how they disregard the lives of "mundanes".

Have you now stopped thinking of Bester as "Chekov"? ;)

Not entirely. It's tough to get past, and I'm hardly a Trekkie. I still think that casting him (not to mention Roddenberry's wife) was a bit on the gimmicky side.

But his character has grown on me in a major way...and he's brilliantly acted. I love his sick sense of humor and his matter of fact attitude about how everyone on B5 despises him. If the telepath arc this season had gone in a different direction, with his redeeming himself as the focus, it would have been much better than that Fabio cult nonsense.

Bester is probably among my 5 favorite characters on this show, which for a guest star is saying something.

Koenig really did a remarkable job with that role. Within about 3 episodes of him as Bester, I stopped thinking of him as Chekov. In fact, whenever I watch any ST:TOS season 2 or 3 episodes I start thinking of him as a young Bester. I keep waiting for him to make a snide, superior remark to Kirk. :lol:

"Top 5" might have been a stretch now that I've given it some thought.

Londo
G'Kar

big gap

Sheridan (before being neutered and goateed)
Delenn
Lennier
Vir
Garabaldi
Bester
Sinclair/Valen
Ivanova (would have been higher but the way she left left a bad taste)
Kosh
Zack
Morden
Lyta/Talia
Marcus
25 random minor characters
the weird looking alien on the left

big gap

Franklin
everybody else
Byron

:lol: You really don't like Franklin and Byron, do you? :lol:

I liked Franklin the first time around, but as I'm watching this for the second time I find myself wanting to fast forward most scenes with him. He's just so...superfluous.

good word.

You watching them in order? If so, where are you?

I'm in the middle of season 3 - just finished "Ceremonies of Light and Dark."

I miss season 3. Amazing stuff...and season 4 was EVEN BETTER!

Right now, I feel like I'm watching the pillowfight in Return of the King.

Personally I would watch the finale and then the 2 movies. Chronologically they should go before but for me it just disrupts the natural story flow too much. There are pros and cons to both options.

I think Richard Biggs agreed; I remember reading that JMS wrote that stim addiction storyline in season three so he'd have something to do!

It was a good night with all that telepath crap behind me.

Meditations on the Abyss

Garabaldi is blowing it. Good to see Lennier again. G'Kar and Londo continue to be the heart of the show in my book...even when they are not the center of attention.

Darkness Ascending

Garabaldi is a wreck...and he's blowing it with Lise to boot. Tough to say where they are going with this one. It's sort of forgotten in the next few episodes, and they only have five left to resolve it somehow. I'm not sure what to make of his dream either.

Lyta makes a deal with G'Kar. She's looking really slutty lately. I dig it.

Lennier has proof that the Centauri are behind the attacks and things are about to get ugly. This was a good episode.

And All My Dreams, Torn Asunder

This was a very good episode. We're back at war, which is when this show is at its best in my book.

Londo getting jailed with G'Kar was awesome!

Movements of Fire and Shadow

An even better episode! I think we're hitting our stride again and this is a STRONG arc.

I hope they do more with Lyta as she seems to be a badass now. Surely THIS wasn't the culmination of that whole Fabio thing. Anybody could have gotten the info from the Drazi in any number of ways.

The Fall of Centauri Prime

Awesome episode. It's cool to see the pieces falling into place.

Londo is officially the single most tragic character I've ever seen in a TV show. We're talking Greek/Shakespearean tragic. Sheesh, the guy just can't catch a break.

There were so many great things about these past few episodes that I want to expand on, but I'll have to leave you with a simple: :up::D:up:

My girlfriend just came in wearing something "more comfortable" and made me an offer I don't think I can refuse.

Night fellas.

Lucky bastard!!!:thumbsup:


Oh by the way Chess, this the first time I have chimed in on this thread...But I have been following it since you started the Grand Babylon 5 adventure. It is great to relive the first time I saw this show vicarously through others!!

Are you planning to pick up the Crusade set? You might as well!! Once you see the last B5 movie you will want to "continue the story"! Although Crusade is just more or less a big cock tease for things that we will never get a chance to see now.

I look forward to the rest of your posts now that you are in the "home stretch"!!

Take care man!!

I'm on the fence about Crusade having read the reviews. Maybe if I can get it cheap at some point.

About the girlfriend...I think she's hooked too. I am NEVER allowed to start an episode without her. :)

General Thoughts

After a very shaky start, S5 has gotten really focused and really epic. I like that everybody seems to be saying their goodbyes as part of a winding down process rather than some big cheezy happy ending. The scene with Delenn and G'Kar saying goodbye on B5 was genuinely touching (though they see each other again).

I've always had a soft spot for Lennier. I'm glad to see him back in action, and he continues to not dissapoint. Guys like him and Vir and to a lesser extent Zack always made up a great support structure for the major players. And maybe he'll get some Delenn action in 20 years or so...lord knows he deserves it.

Londo's inaguration scene with the bells and the flashbacks was AWESOME. And the chemistry between him and G'Kar continues to be the best part of the show.

The morning scene before Sheridan presents the Centauri evidence was downright cinematic. The "other shoe dropping" in slow motion was some heavy handed symbolism, but damned if it didn't work.

Nice to finally see the Drahk.

When I watch B5 in the future, I'm guessing that I'll just skip right to this part of the season. I think a person could put together a 30ish episode run of the best arc episodes and it would make for a great weekend marathon. I think that I'll make a list when I'm done.

I've also decided to just watch the season and then watch the other two movies.

Be sure to post your list. :)

I must of missed something: I thought you had only watched "In the Beginning"? What was the other one you watched? (Thirdspace?, River of Souls?, A Call to Arms?---hopefully not the last one!)

Edit: never mind, I did miss a post on Page 13!

You don't have to make a list - just go to the Lurker's Guide and go to the "Reference" section. There is a list of all of the episodes, and the titles of the "Wham" episodes (those that advance the overall storyline more than usual) are highlighted. DO NOT go to this section before you've finished the entire series, as a brief summary of each episode is also included.

Your thoughts on season 5 echo my own. I can't wait to see your reaction to the series finale.

I never saw that before!

Here it is. I'll add the titles for the last few episodes after chess watches them.

+ the last four of Season 5

I'll bet I can trim that down a bit. :)

Incidentally, I forgot to mention that it was cool to see that guy who played Ethan Raynes on Buffy. I recall him playing a Minbari a bit back, so it was kind of distracting trying to recall which one while I was watching, but it was good to see him again nonetheless.

I was bored one day and entered all the episodes and P5 ratings into Excel. Then I graphed all the seasons to get a visual of the episode ratings. I've thrown it up on my site if anyone is interested in checking it out.

B5 Stats

If any B5 fans around here have a few hundred (or thousand!!) dollars of spending money lying around, you may be interested to know that JMS is eBaying a bunch of memorabilia related to his work that he's had lying around in boxes...

http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZbabylon5auctions

The stuff isn't going cheap, though. A set of Londo and G'Kar dolls that were specifically made as props for the episode "There All The Honor Lies" went for $7200+!

Other notable items are an EarthForce captain's uniform that JMS had made for himself (and has only been worn once), various scripts from certain episodes, and Sinclair's Battle of the Line medal from The Gathering.

There's even more stuff to come, too.

Agreed. Let the season wind down the way it is supposed to by finishing it out. Then go back to see the movies.

The B5 stuff - I've been looking at that since JMS mentioned it on the newsgroup. Sooooooooooooooo droolworthy. I'd be lucky to scrape up $100 at this moment, no chance in getting any of this stuff. But it's cool to look at.

Chess- when you rewatch, you will be suprised. Hints and foreshadows that you missed first time around, little things here and there. Especially the first couple of seasons.

:eek:

Wow, that's...obsessive.

;)

Finished S5 tonight.

I need to let it all soak in before I post my thoughts though.

Well, one thought...

At first I was disappointed that they didn't show the stuff on Centauri Prime with Londo and Vir showed up as emperor, but after giving it some thought it occurs to me that they had **ALREADY** shown a great deal of it. I like that they just skip ahead for a proper send off and take for granted that all that went down. It was a nice curve ball, because I was totally expecting the final episode to be about that.

For the first time, I completely bought Sheridan and Delenn. Wow.

More tomorrow when I've had time to think.

Well, if you're interested in the details of Londo's situation, there's always the books, but I'll go into those once you've given your thoughts on the rest of the season.

Wheel of Fire

Sort of a Lyta-centric episode. Sadly, I didn't feel like I ever got anything even remotely resembling a payoff for all that Byron crap. I also have no clue after finishing the season how the whole telepath thing works out. And would Lyta really leave the rest of the telepaths to fend for themselves? I don't know, I guess I just felt the whole telepath thing was handled badly in general.

Garabaldi is found out and suspended...but Lise is there to help. This little sidestory has already sort of been done with Franklin...even though they set Garabaldi up for a binge from season one.

G'Kar is interesting in this episode, but nothing else really jumped out at me.

Objects in Motion

Two assasination attempts at the same ceremony...only on B5.

So Garabaldi is married and leaving, and G'Kar and Lyta are...well, doing something and leaving.

The Garabaldi bit with the board of directors was pretty good...reminded me of the similar scene in Dogma.

At this point, I was coming to the realization that this show was going to go out with a whimper rather than a bang...though I still had high hopes for the finale.

Objects at Rest

The departure of Delenn and Sheridan and an ensemble piece for the new crew...this was a really good episode, and in many ways, felt like a finale.

We also see Londo for the last time setting up the events that we've only seen bits and pieces of thus far. Now *that* is a TNT movie waiting to happen, I daresay. Londo's final moments were great, but the impact of them was lost on me because I really thought I'd see him in the next episode.

The Lennier thing was absurdly out of character. I didn't think he'd be Delenn's lapdog forever, but he's not a murderer. Bah!

Sleeping in Light

Tremendous episode, but only partly what I'd hoped for.

I thought the show would come full circle back to the Londo/watcher thing, so I was just a bit...I don't think dissapointed is the word...but I was definitely wondering about the details of what went down. I guess I was expecting the Londo/G'Kar thing to play out on screen and then Sheridan to go off and die after saving his son in a climax.

Instead, the episode was an overly reverent living funeral, and everybody got a happy ending. When I saw Vir wearing the emperor's crest and I knew for certain that Londo and G'Kar weren't going to appear in the finale, I've gotta say that I was just a bit bummed.

For the record, I didn't cry during the finale. That's not the sort of thing that gets to me, but I do know good drama when I see it, and that was really really good drama. I probably got more misty during some of the big battlefield confrontations...like Delenn bringing the Minbari fleet out of hyperspace to save B5 from the EA. Those epic last minute saves from impossible odds get me every time.

Oddly Ivanova now felt out of place...though her being there made perfect sense.

General Thoughts

Most of the things I loved about this show were absent in these last few episodes. There was nothing really epic after the fall of Centauri Prime, Londo and G'Kar were either shortchanged or were absent, and we had to spend time wrapping up the pointless Lyta arc. Also, based on the portents, I thought Garabaldi or Ivanova were going to die in the end...sacrificing themselves as somebody should do in a finale.

It would have also been nice if we had spent some of that Fabio time fleshing out the Drahk and how they are presumably defeated at some point. Instead, I'm left wondering. I guess when Londo dies, that's the end of it.

S5 was pretty disappointing overall with the exception of a really strong middle section...the 4-5 episodes leading up to the fall of Centauri prime. I think S4 was my favorite season because it was so epic and focused, followed closely by S3 which had great mystery and some amazing moments. S2 was very good as well. I think S5 was probably better than S1, but by just a bit.

In the end, I'd say that the period from about midway through S2 through the end of S4 is some of the best sci-fi I've seen on TV...possibly *the* best, though I think Farscape might still get the nod based on consistancy and better acting.