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When did the west wing go bad?

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When did the west wing go bad?

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Old 05-06-04, 09:54 AM
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When did the west wing go bad?

I have been watching the syndication on Bravo, and am up to the California 47th. Which has
Spoiler:
Rob Lowe in the run up to his election, where toby and charlie get arrested


And the show still seems great to me, and I have been watching a lot of it, letting it build up on the Tivo and then watching chunks. I forgot to try and Tivo Season 5 on NBC which sucks so I will have to wait. But as I read the old topics on WW here on TV Talk, I still see lots of love for it.

But entertainment weekly had an article on it. and I sense a general malaise towards season 5 on here, that is of course without reading the Threads.

So without giving too much away does anyone want to let me know when it turned. Was it one thing, or many factors?

-bdb
Old 05-06-04, 09:58 AM
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Really quite simple. Sorkin and Schlamme leave = show not as good. When? Probably the Season 5 premiere.

das
Old 05-06-04, 10:03 AM
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Actually, I thought most of S4 (last year) was mediocre. The last 3 episodes were so great that it pretty much made up for the rest of the lackluster seasno.

With the exception of The Supremes, every episode this season has been a yawner.
Old 05-06-04, 10:05 AM
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The last couple of episodes this year have been pretty good, but I agree that the consistent greatness left with Sorkin and Schlamme.
Old 05-06-04, 10:05 AM
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thanks. I have been enjoying it a lot up till this point.
Old 05-06-04, 10:13 AM
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If you're watching Sam running for office, you're about to start heading downhill.

Sorkin leaves = show sucks
Old 05-06-04, 11:00 AM
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I stopped watching when the President's illness became the major focus of the show.
Old 05-06-04, 12:03 PM
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Originally posted by das Monkey
Really quite simple. Sorkin and Schlamme leave = show not as good. When? Probably the Season 5 premiere.

das
Another vote for this being the time and place WW went splat. Though I did start to notice a downward shift at the end of S4. Maybe they knew they were on the way out.

In an effort to contribute something positive to the discussion, it is also possible that given the excellence established in S1 & 2, there was no way to live up to the high expectations (see the B5 S5 thread for an example of this).

Nope, now that i think about it, WW really does suck this season. BRING BACK SORKIN AND SCHLAMME!
Old 05-06-04, 10:56 PM
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this show used to be the highlight of my tv viewing every week along with ed. now one is cancelled and the other might as well be. i have the last 2 months worth of episodes on tape that i just haven't had much motivation to watch. when sorkin and schlamme left, that was it.

now another thought....

Spoiler:
in my tv guide for next week, it says something is going to happen to donna. if they kill her off for some reason, (although i haven't heard anything about janel maloney leaving), that will probably be the end of the show for me. she and josh are my favorite characters.
Old 05-07-04, 08:30 AM
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I thought the show became irrelevant after 9-11
Old 05-07-04, 08:58 AM
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The Season finale last year was awesome - but I've watched 3 eps this season and lost interest. If they bring back Matt Perry's character I might watch again.
Old 05-07-04, 09:20 AM
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When they removed John Goodman from office.
Old 05-07-04, 10:30 AM
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^^ ^^ I think Goodman would have been GREAT as a semi-regular.

It's pretty easy to tell. Just check back to when weekly posts about the show went from 5 pages to 5 posts.
Old 05-07-04, 12:50 PM
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Here's an older review (from Sept. 2003) of the early fifth season tha
Old 05-07-04, 12:59 PM
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Here's an older review (from Sept. 2003) of the early fifth season that I find amusing:

"The Lost Wing"

bad signal
WARREN ELLIS

(originally sent late afternoon BST)

There was a British satellite/cable-only soap opera a few years ago, called, I think, SUMMERHILL. It was pretty turgid, but I fell in on the first or second episode and the first sequence I saw hooked me for a little while.

A family were sitting in the front room of their home, around a coffin; a dead relative, in state in the family home immediately before the funeral. The vicar is sitting in observance with the family. No-one can take their eyes off the coffin. The vicar sits forward and says:

"It's no good, you know...

"...you'll have to get a television."

There are two kinds of television drama. The shit, that gives in to expectations, in order to comfort and sedate the viewer. And the kind that challenges your expectations in order to engage you.

The first episode of the new series of THE WEST WING bumps up hard against my expectations only insofar as it seems to have thrown out everything that engaged me.

Creator/writer Aaron Sorkin and director/producer Tommy Schlamme left the series at the end of the last season, and original co-producer John Wells came downstairs to run the show. John Wells runs ER, one of the more glaring recent examples of Not Knowing When To Stop. He said at the start that WEST WING was no longer going to sound like Aaron Sorkin -- Sorkin put almost every script aired through a final rewrite to give the show its unique voice. Like Tarantino ten years ago, Sorkin made it okay for characters to talk a lot again, great mad symphonies of banter and explication and oratory.

The biggest shock is the quiet. No-one has anything to say. No-one is funny. No-one is smart. Brad Whitford and Janel Moloney look choked. Alison Janney wanders around like someone stole her purse. When they do get to talk, it sounds like someone swapped out their brains over the summer. Suddenly none of them are any good at anything. The Secretary of Defense appears to have a whole different personality.

The storyline has Republicans invading the Democratic White House as the President, without a VP, invokes a Constitutional system to create an interim President of the Speaker of the House, as he doesn't trust himself to be commander-in-chief while his kidnapped daughter is still missing. The change in tone, with such a massive storyline shift, would seem on paper to be of a piece. The President's staff would naturally be stressed, concerned and wrong-footed. But no-one talks. They're sitting around waiting for their lines. The Republican staffers now swarming in the Oval Office have no dialogue.

Oh, and on the subject of Republicans taking control of the White House of THE WEST WING, one of the new consultants hired by John Wells, conservative columnist John Podhoretz, recently had this to say about Aaron Sorkin: "I don't know about you, but I don't need any lessons on theology, destiny, public service, job creation, pay equity or conservative ideology from a crack addict."

John Goodman, as the new President, looks sick and ill. Brad Whitford's character is called upon to gloomily note that in a press conference Goodman's character looks "Presidential." Goodman can barely ****ing talk and looks like he could puke blood at any second. Of course, no-one is helped by the direction, which throws out Tommy Schlamme's prowling naturalistic visual vocabulary and has the characters lit in the style of a 1960's Superman comic. The President's new quarters appear to be the Clocktower from the BIRDS OF PREY TV show, and at one point, when Martin Sheen and John Spencer stand at the window, Sheen is lit in blue and Spencer is lit in red, no more than a foot between them.

If you were going to put money on which actor was to commit suicide first, it'd be Spencer, who, even beyond the demands of the script, looks beaten and doomed. Richard Schiff, given maybe five lines, just looks embarrassed to be there. He's the one who's spoken publicly about WEST WING being the heir to the challenging cinema of the New Hollywood of the 60s and 70s. Now he gets to sit there and report on the location of his ex-wife's newborn twins three or four times.

Joshua Malina, never more than a quick fix for the departure of Rob Lowe, just keeps struggling, his weirdly grating voice still ploughing through. WEST WING never succeeded in expanding or adding to the core staff. Clever as Sorkin is, he could never keep all his balls in the air, and smart actors like Emily Proctor (currently seen wasting her days as one of Carusobot's drones on CSI: MIAMI) were allowed to just drift away. (That said, any series that puts Sofia Milos on TV has my vote. Even if she is there as Less-Talented Police Carusobot Stooge and Carusobot Human Love Interest. And, incidentally, the new CSI: MIAMI shows Carusobot has been programmed with a new trick. It smiles. It is a creepy, awful smile designed to frighten Carusobot's human prey.)

But Malina could have a voice like honey and a presence like Brando and he'd still have ****-all to work with. If you take away the dialogue, you're just left with a bunch of people emoting at each other like they've been dropped in the sea and are flailing for a handhold.

And if you're determined to do that, and determined to make all the characters look bad, then why in hell did you want to run the show in the first place?
Old 05-07-04, 01:34 PM
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For us Sorkin fans: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040430/laf071_1.html
Old 05-07-04, 01:51 PM
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I watched the first 4 seasons on Bravo
& downloaded season 5 to get caught up. I was expecting season 5 to be horrible & while it's not nearly as good as the first 4 I still enjoy it. I think the loss of Rob Lowe really hurt the show, maybe since Lyon's Den was DOA he'll come back for S6 but that's probably a pipe dream. The storylines in S5 seam more contrived, there were 3 episodes in a row based on CJ flying of the handle about some great in justice. The episodes are more episodic now like the most recent episode which was basicly just a one off about a germ scare. All in all still a decent show with an awesome cast.
Old 05-07-04, 01:57 PM
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I should start acquiring S5 I forgot about that. I have about 4 or 5 on tivo. do they repeat in the summer or no? It seems like a show which has a lot of continuity unlike a CSI which has little or no continuity from one show to the next.
Old 05-07-04, 03:10 PM
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Originally posted by mphtrilogy
I thought the show became irrelevant after 9-11
Yeah, I forgot about that (not 9-11, but the ep that aired afterwards)

That sanctimonious piece of crap that Sorkin wrote as a response to the attack surely has to be one of the most offensive, self-important, and preachy TV episodes I've ever seen.
Old 05-07-04, 03:12 PM
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When Rob Lowe left
Old 05-07-04, 03:23 PM
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Well, I disagree that it has gone bad, but I think Sam Seaborn's departure is the reason it's not as great as it used to be. He really seemed to bring everyone in the West Wing together and his relative naiveté in that office of know-it-alls was amusing. Josh Malina/Will Bailey makes me want to throw things at the TV.

I don't think Sorkin's absence is as bad as people like to make it out to be (I'd like it if he came back, though). I don't exactly miss characters saying: "I've got the thing, in the thing, with the guy."

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