I thought Toy Story was rather successful.

It's rather unfair to judge Joss Whedon on the movies made from his scripts, since they really aren't his movies. As a screenwriter on a film, his status is just above the Best Boy's, and his creative control is nil. Contrast that with his TV shows, where he's Executive Producer and has near maximum creative control. The Firefly movie, if he were to direct, would really be the first Joss Whedon film.

That’s got to be the weirdest thing I’ve read in a while.

Chances are, it’ll blow, unless the suits let him make a movie that’ll appeal to a very narrow audience. That doesn’t sound like Hollywood to me.

I don’t think Firefly had the exposure to develop a broad fan base, unlike Farscape. Nor did it seem to be something aimed at the usual SF crowd.

At the risk of having a tricorder shoved up my ass (;)), could it be one of those movies that eventually becomes a “SciFi Original”?

Why do you think Firefly only appeals to a very narrow audience? I think Firefly has the potential for a much wider audience, if the movie is done well. "The Train Job" showed that Joss could effectively re-introduce the characters without repeating the pilot "Serenity." I don't see why he can't do the same again.

Tread carefully, <b>Wizdar</b> ... tricorders have a lot of protruding knobs and buttons ...

das

True. I know many who hate sci-fi (including my wife) but who love Firefly. I also know many who love sci-fi (like me) who also love Firefly. Its one of those odd shows that if given a chance, could appeal to a wide audience.

Well, take comfort in the knowledge that I’m frequently wrong.

[Wizdar giggles like a schoolgirl.]

Moving to Mature.

I bought this a couple of days ago and have almost finished the first 2 disks. I didn't get to catch most of the series when it aired originally. I must say this show is much better than I remembered. What has been the most pleasent suprise has to be the humor of the show. They don't have a lot of jokes but when they say something funny it is damn funny.

My favorite one liner is this:

Jane: "Do you know what the chain of command is? It's the chain out back that I get to beat you with until you learn that I'm in command!" LOL

I think I may pick this up after Christmas. I loved the series, but had actually forgotten it was coming out on DVD :o

Are the episodes on the discs in chronological order, or in the order than FOX aired them?

Brian

They're in proper order.

The original air dates are listed on the DVD cases, just in case you're insane and want to re-create the original airing order. For those who didn't catch the show on TV it gives just a glimpse at how much FOX f**ked with this show.

Im not judging Whedon based on his movies, Buffy and Angel are two of my favorite shows and I did quite like Firefly when it aired (and i watch the re-runs on Space whenever I can).

But his track record, for whatever reason, when it comes to movies is bad.

If the movie would give the series some kind of resolution then I'd be all over the box set, but as it is I'm not biting.

The "for whatever reason" was explained. He had no control over those projects. He's directing and executive producing <b>Firefly</b>. Whether it will be good or not is unknown, but he doesn't have a bad track record; he has <i>no</i> track record. Did you watch <i>Project Greenlight 2</i>? Remember how little control Erica had? Now, remember how many times they told us she had infinitely <i>more</i> control than screenwriters normally get, but they kept her involved for the purposes of the project?

Assuming he's in charge, you can consider <b>Firefly</b> Joss' <i>first</i> feature film.

das

I found it a bit strange that people would consider Firefly "dark". Of course there are all the aspects that everyone mentions, but all the killing and backstabbing happens in a very old western movie style. It's like calling the John Wayne or Gary Cooper westerns "dark"... Which I guess some would call them, but for me they're really... "westerns" and the killing and backstabbing and otherwise harshness comes as a given

I find it a bit stange that some consider it mainstream.

Explanations on either of those would be interesting.

Maybe the “dark” they’re referring to is the humor. Maybe it’s the violence, which would make SG-1 very dark indeed.

But, yep, it’s just a western with spaceships, like somebody posted when it originally aired.

I think, in order to see the difference between something Joss Whedon has control over and something he simply wrote the script for, one need look no further than the "Buffy" movie. Joss had no control over that film, and thus it came out dissapointing. Contrast that with the "Buffy" TV show, which he did have control over, and turned out very well.

What's interesting is that the Buffy scenerio is the opposite of what's happened with Firefly. Buffy was a failed movie that became a successful TV show. Firefly is a "failed" TV show that Joss is turning into a movie. At the least, Buffy shows that Joss doesn't give up on a story he believes in easily.

As for wating for the "resolution" before watching the series, I have this to say: While the TV show doesn't resolve some overall story arcs, the episodes in and of themselves have plenty of resolution and are some of the finest stories told on television. While rewatching the TV series on DVD, I feel a great sense of loss that the show wasn't allowed to continue. However, I think it'd be an even greater loss if I had never seen the show at all. If the move (god forbid) never gets made, I'm still plenty happy with the DVD set, and will rewatch it many times.

Just picked this up based soley on the DVD Talk review. I almost never watch TV, the only exception really being Angel(which I haven't watch this season at all). However I'm a HUGE fan of TV on DVD. No commercials, no waits for the next episode, OAR, etc, TV shows on DVD are just far more appealing to me.

So needless to say when Firefly originally aired I missed out, in fact I didn't know anything about it when I read the review. Sounded like something I might be interested in, the price was ok so I gave it and shot and wow, this is one great show. What Fox did here is a tradgedy, but hopefully the strong DVD sales will lead to a good movie, which will lead to the series being picked up by someone.


Anyways, my thanks to Don Houston for his review which kept me from missing out on a great show(and probably the movie which I will definitely see now). I would have posted this in the thread about the review but this one seems to be more well read.

While I don't doubt the lack of control played a huge role in the failure of Whedon's movies, I'm just not willing to chalk it up to that reason exclusively.

Perhaps I'm just being stubborn (or stupid), but I'm not sure what I like about Buffy and Angel could be put on the screen in a two hour film.

Re: Re: Joss Whedon got the idea from Outlaw Star
 

Not to hijack the thread, but here's the whole thing right here (entering Karl Malone mode)....

Yes alot of the "ideas" were around for ages before series like Cowboy Bebop and Outlaw Star. However, I have to take issue with the fact that this series was made and with such blatantly obvious "sources" and they haven't been acknowledged by the creator of it or anyone invoved. At least not to my knowledged it hasn't. If they have please correct me so I don't look like a total jack-ass.

To me this partly reinforces what's keeping anime from breaking mainstream in America. That you can have a program like Firefly that borrows heavily from series like Cowboy Bebop and Outlaw Star and people will generally accept ( well not entirely because it was cancelled) it because it's in a live action medium. But something like Bebop or Outlaw Star won't be because it's "animated" makes me shake my head. "You liked Firefly because it's live action...now you're saying you don't like Cowboy Bebop or Outlaw Star because it's animated even though it's content and story lines are pretty much the same?" to which I'd get the reply "yeah but that's a 'cartoon' ".

The only thing I'd like to see is credit given where credit is due. If Joss Whedon was in fact influenced by Outlaw Star I'd like to see him come forward and say it. Especially when there are elements that are overtly taken from the series.

Okay that's enough from me....

Re: Re: Re: Joss Whedon got the idea from Outlaw Star
 

What elements in particular?

I only ask because "cowboys in space" isn't that unusual of an idea.

I don't know if Alien Resurrection came before those two anime, but I was thinking the other day that the crew of the Serenity is very similar thematically to the crew of the Betty in Alien Res.

Maybe he's had the idea kicking around in the back of his head for a few years.

Can someone with the Firefly DVDs help me? I heard that on the audio commentaries that Joss explained what he was planning to do with the rest of the season before it got canned. I'm just curious to know since I did like the shows characters.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Joss Whedon got the idea from Outlaw Star
 

Take a look at this.....
http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/ols/.../17melfina.JPG

Look familiar? That is an identical image from a scene in the premiere episode of Firefly.

Other similarities (I've only seen a few episodes so I can't remember any of the Firefly characters names).....

OS: Main character is a bounty hunter
FF: Main character is a mercenary
not an exact match but similar

OS:Melfina, the girl in the box (pictured above)
FF: Girl in a box....
pretty blatant

OS: Suzuka Twilight, quick witted fierce, female assassain
FF: Quick witted female side kick
Could be similar but who knows maybe a coincidence

OS: the ship the Outlaw Star
FF: the ship bears a resemblance to the Outlaw Star before Hilda and Gene Starwind made it "spaceworthy"
Coincidence?

http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/ols/gal/ship.JPG

http://www.fireflyfans.net/newsimage..._top_small.jpg

They look different I know but add the engine pods to the lower pic and it you'll see it looks more like it.

Actually, they don't say too much in particular, but hint a bit since they are trying to get a movie made and don't want to spoil it. The main things I learned are... (spoilerized just in case):

Re: Re: Re: Joss Whedon got the idea from Outlaw Star
 

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/read.php?ID=8581

Harlock,
While I appreciate your strength of conviction, I still disagree that there are any real smoking guns to your belief. You're stating as a fact that Mr. Whedon borrowed/stole/based Firefly upon one of two anime shows without anything close to substantiating it. The guy has been busy with various shows (Buffy, Angel, various others) and it's not unrealistic to think the archetypes used in Firefly have been used in a dozen shows before Outlaw Star. If I held a contest, I'm sure some of my anime-loving friends (in case you haven't noticed, I'm an anime buff too) would be able to name some of the aspects of Outlaw Star that are potentially derivative from previous shows. Does that mean the creators of Outlaw Star stole them? No, it doesn't.

The question of why anime isn't bigger in the USA has many answers. Some of it is the snob element, some is the fact that dubs are not usually as good as the original language versions (they are getting better but a lot of people don't like to "read" a movie in subtitles, even foreign classics), and some of it relates to marketing (who wants to pay $30 for 3 episodes with few extras?). There are many other answers but these are representative of some I used to here in a little videogame store in Houston (guess what major anime company started in that little store...).

If you really want to convert people with the many virtues of anime, you'll probably find a more receptive audience by saying stuff like "If you like Firefly, you'll love Outlaw Star since the two share some themes and explore them in completely different ways." Each has its own strengths and you'll get more fans to listen if you search out the common ground and use it to build bridges rather than tear down a show that a lot of people seem to like. THAT'S the way anime will grow in the USA, not by picking fights on internet forums.

If Mr. Whedon watched some anime and used a few ideas from it, I'd be happy if he acknowledged it too but keep in mind that using some minimal idea doesn't make a creator of a show obligated to detail where he got every single reference point (if so, I imagine the Excel Saga would've caused your eyes to pop out). Regardless, Whedon could shout about his love for anime from the highest mountain and it wouldn't make a big difference to the average US consumer (the ones the networks supposedly listen to) but if you go to the official Whedon website, maybe he'll take time out of his busy schedule and exlain his influences in detail for you. He seems pretty fan-friendly.

Thanks Phantom.

Darkness: While the Western themes are undeniable (I live in Texas and think those themes are a good thing), so to is the darker nature of the show. The lead characters steal medicine, kill people, and otherwise engage in a lot of unsocial behavior and the gallows humor was in every episode. While the characters were flawed, they were flawed in a way we could identify with and they grew in the short time they were on the air. that potential for growth is as much a reason why the show is still growing in popularity as anything else. I hope a Firefly movie gets made and I hope anime becomes more popular in the USA. Merry Christmas to all of you. :)

Point by point on your four points though:
1) Mal was a captain of a space ship trying to keep it afloat by taking whatever jobs he had to. Usually, this involved transporting goods of a questionable nature (perhaps George Lucas should demand Joss pay for using a smuggler as a lead since Han Solo was a smuggler). Generally, the bounty was on his head (or the head of some of his passengers) so that's not really a good example.

2) I've seen the girl in a box before. It was on a laserdisc from the late 80's and it may have been the Dirty Pair series but it was long ago. I've seen various similar plot devices used in mainstream shows and movies as well.

3) Zoe and Suzuka are really very different. Please watch the Firefly boxed set and you'll see why (in so many ways).

4) Ships: They aren't anything alike. The Outlaw Star ship looks like some of the Gamilon ships in Starblazers more than the Serenity (and if you showed pictures from other angles, the similarities would end pretty quickly too.

Anyway, like I said, both shows are fun to watch and I think people who like one could easily like the other. There really isn't enough GOOD science fiction on television that people should fight over which is better (mostly because it's a taste issue but also because the better episodes of most shows could easily be enjoyed by anyone who liked science fiction in general). I liked Firefly a whole lot and if a movie never gets made, maybe Mr. Whedon will write up an outline for authors to create detailed stories on (based on his approval hopefully).

Believe me the intention was not to "pick a fight". Someone had asked me what elements I thought were from Outlaw Star and I listed them.

Like I said before, for me at least, the similarities were so striking that even at one point when I saw Firefly I looked at my remote and said "What channel do I have on here?".

By the way what is Mr. Whedon's official site? I poked around the net but I can't seem to find anything.

After getting through some of the unaired episodes, I can honestly say that I'm glad I didn't really watch this show when it aired, or I would have been depressed when it got canned. This show is excellent.

I watched the 3 unaired episodes yesterday and am bummed that this show never got a chance on Fox because it was a damn fine show. It was funny, dramatic, space flight-enhanced, and just all-around entertaining as hell.

I got this set for my birthday (12/23) and am halfway through the third disc. Echoing others' thoughts, this show was fantastic. Hoping for a good movie.

Bump to point out that after being out a month, the Firefly DVD set ranks 17th on Amazon.com for DVD sales.

I hope FOX execs are taking notes.

Well, not to throw water on that, but does anybody really know what those numbers mean?

I mean, it could be what we think it means. It also could mean, "this is how it ranks in terms of how many copies we have in the warehouse that we'd like to get rid of."

Nearest I can find to an official site is http://www.fireflyfans.net , seems pretty comprehensive, but I can't find anything specific for Joss Whendon.

I LOVE Firefly. I'm so sick of falling for great shows that get the push. Firefly has such quality of storytelling and intrigueing, compelling characters, how the hell did it get canned.

"That seem right to you? "

I am still going thru it, but about 5 episodes in or so, I can say, Damn this is a fine show! It really makes me wonder how Paramount can get away with churning out the crap they call Enterprise when I see how well sci fi can be done. Bummer Fox treated the show like crap-airing it out of order, preempting episodes for baseball, leaving episodes unaired at all, and I understand they even changed the times it was on a few weeks. Gee, dumbasses, why do you think it got no decent ratings? Wasn't this the show that was supposed to take the X Files slot on Sunday? In fact, I know it was. Why didn't Fox let the show on Sunday? We would still see it on air if they had, I am willing to bet. This and Lone Gunmen back to back would have made for powerhouse TV.

What are the chances Fox would consider bringing the series back if the DVD sales and the movie do well enough?

My family, never having seen any eps before, hosted a two-day marathon at our house and we watched the whole shebang. I liked it, my family liked it. Hell, the cats liked it. That baby-headed mutant (watch the special features, he looks like a frikkin' peanuts character!) Whedon did a fine job with this. And I am a well-known Buffy hater, certainly not a Joss fanboy. Two words: The Companion.

:drool:

My friend picked this about a week after it came out and we both sat down and watched the first episode together. Having not really liked Outlaw Star, I went into it with trepidation. I was immediately blown away by the insane production values of this show. Then was quickly blown away again at just how good the dialogue was. I picked up the series the next day and watched the entire thing over 3 days.

That being said, I'm really, really glad I didn't watch it on TV. Because this is just one more reason to truly hate FOX. I got to the end of the series and almost cried because there aren't going to be any more episodes. I loved the entire crew of Serenity. They did such a good job casting the characters. And who can't love Nathan Fillion as Mal?

By far though my favorite character has to be Jayne, played by my now favorite Baldwin, Adam Baldwin. He had almost every bit of humorous dialogue in the series. I especially love the episode, Jaynestown. "You guys, had a riot on my account? I love you guys!"

For those wondering what this series is like, look no further than this: Its like Brisco County, Jr. in space.

I recently got a copy of this.. it's just excellent. Very well done. If you're in the market for a good series to watch/own grab a copy of this right away.

I also bought it the other day, but I had watched all the episodes that aired, when they originally were on TV. Of course I was disappointed to see it cancelled, but I wasn't surprised. So far the 2/3 commentaries I listened to were good.

well, i think Serenity wasn't shown first because either joss or fox wasn't satisfied with the finished product and had a few reshoots.

It was Fox - they made Joss & Co. write a second pilot over a weekend because they thought the original version didn't have enough action or some such thing.

*Spoilers on unaired episodes below*

Anyway, I meant to post this a couple of months ago: I watched the unaired episodes and really enjoyed 'Trash' but the other two were really so-so. In this respect Fox did air the best episodes, albeit out of order. 'Heart of Gold' seemed like some bad skinemax plot and 'The Message' just didn't get to me. Except the ending - some real emotion acting as a real funeral for the show.

FOX didn't like the original pilot, so Joss went back and did some reshoots/editing for the pilot. However, FOX also wanted to see how the show would work as an hour-long show, so they asked Joss and Tim to write an hour long episode to show what the show would look like on a weekly basis. And just in case FOX didn't like the new pilot, the episode should also work as a first episode. So Joss and Tim wrote "The Train Job" in one weekend. FOX liked it enough to approve the series.

Then Joss turned in his new version of the pilot "Serenity," which Joss prefers and is the version found on the DVD set. FOX decided to go with "The Train Job" first anyway. Now, it may be that FOX still didn't like the pilot episode, although they eventually aired it. However, Joss got the distinct impression that nobody even watched the new version of it, it was never considered as being shown first after its initial dismissal. Remember that FOX premeired both FIREFLY and JOHN DOE on the same night. FOX may have just liked the idea of a one hour premeire, since it allowed them two premeire to shows in one night.

As for the unaried episodes:


Finally, I think the main reason that FOX went with "Objects in Space" over any of the other unaired episodes was that it was a Joss Whedon episode, written and directed by him.