movielib

To imply that everyone who doesn't believe in all the unproven (and disproven) conspiracy theories is nothing but a blind follower of the government is downright wrong and is also insulting.

As a libertarian, I am more distrusting of the government than just about anyone. Still, I don't blindly ignore the occasional times they get something right.

Groucho

My views on the film are pretty much the same. Whenever it's on television I can't help but stop and watch for a while. It's such a skillfully made film, despite the lopsided approach to the subject matter.

Thanks for the heads up on this special. Sounds interesting.

HistoryProf

Yeah...nothing like falling back on a 40 year old documentary based intirely on the Warren Commission Report to get down to all the facts.

I agree with JestersTear on this one...it is amazing how incapable some people are of even entertaining the thought that more could have been at play that day....there is plenty of evidence to suggest as much. But don't let that get in the way of your "factual" analysis I guess.

Numanoid

Err...but the U.S. House of Representatives Select Committee on Assassinations determined that it was probable that there WAS a conspiracy and at least two shooters.

http://www.archives.gov/research_roo...ee_report.html

movielib

I know and I was thinking of mentioning that in my post but I didn't want to complicate things.

So actually, if we were to blindly believe whatever government tells us about the Kennedy assassination, we'd have to both believe and disbelieve in a conspiracy.

Pants

The one thing that Stone's JFK gets right is the overwhelming feeling deep down in every American of insecurity and uncertainty over the issue. Because of the shocking nature of the violence (bullet to the head in public in front of wife) and who the victim was (US President) America still has unresolved tension from feeling vulnerable and violated.

The film may not get the facts right but it gets the feeling right. The feeling that if something that awfull and geo-politically earth shaking could happen, it couldn't be the work of one rouge nut. It's almost easier to believe in a vast conspiracy being required to take down a president than in the simple truth that the president is vulnerable to that kind of violence all the time so long as the killer is willing to give his own life in the process.

movielib

Oswald wasn't one rouge nut. He was white.

(I know you meant rogue.)

Thoughtful post.

wendersfan

"I believe that Oswald acted alone."

Seriously, you can point to a lot of weird stuff that happened in Dallas on 11-22-63, but I'd be willing to bet that if you took any random day and placed it under the same amount of scrutiny, you'd come up with all kinds of weird things going on. Until someone proves to me otherwise, I don't think there was a conspiracy.

Deke Rivers

the "facts" as reported by the Warren Comission

davidvp

You better believe it pal!

There's not been one "serious" challenge to refute the WC findings. There have been speculations, rumors, and conjecture (not to mention a looney-toon named Jim Garrison) out the anal cavity....but NOTHING has undermined the integrity of that Report.

NONE of the "multiple-shooter" theories, or the ridiculous connect-the-dots-and-create-a-killer "Badge Man" in the shadows bunk, or the "sewer assassins" can possibly be looked upon as MORE credible than the findings of the Warren panel, when reflected upon via common sense and logic.

EVERY piece of evidence points to one conclusion: A crazed former defector to Russia named Lee went to work one morning, with rifle in tow, climbed to a sixth-floor corner perch, and shot & killed the Chief Executive.

The amount of people who would have been involved in "setting up" Oswald as a "patsy", plus carrying out the actual killing, plus somehow "getting to" and corrupting nearly every officer within the Dallas Police Department, FBI, and other authorities (to aid in the massive cover-up) must be a staggering number indeed. And all, of course, would have to remain silent for the rest of their lives. How silly does this sound?? Ultra-silly, IMO.

And what overall motive do MOST of these conspirators have in wanting the President killed in the first place? Take the case of Mrs. Ruth Paine (friend of Marina Oswald's who lived with Marina for a time in 1962-1963) ..........

While discussing these events on another forum recently, the subject of Mrs. Paine came up. Many, MANY people in the "CT" (Conspiracy Theory) community truly believe that Mrs. Paine is guilty of helping to set Lee Oswald up as the "patsy" on 11/22.

But WHY?? What possible motive could this ordinary housewife from Irving, Texas, have had to be willing to RISK HER VERY OWN LIFE (if caught aiding in the assassination of an American President) in order to pin the murder of JFK on Oswald, who, BTW, she (admittedly) barely knew!! (She knew Lee; but was much more acquainted with Marina, sparingly bumping into Lee.)

Mrs. Paine, BTW, to those who might not recognize the name, was instrumental in getting Lee Harvey Oswald his job at the Texas School Book Depository Building in mid-October of 1963, one month before the President's visit to Dallas. Which, of course, brings another point up....HOW could Mrs. Paine have possibly known that the President would drive right by the Depository on 11/22?? Answer: she couldn't. No one knew there would even BE any sort of parade/motorcade through the city under early November! Once again, it seems "common sense" is not all that common when it comes to some of the ludricrous claims endlessly being spouted by the network of conspiracy promoters.

The type of craziness re. Mrs. Paine above reminds me of the similar off-the-wall absurdity regarding the OJ Simpson murder case in 1995. Tell me someone, PLEASE, WHY, oh WHY there would be FOUR L.A.P.D. Police detectives, who never even KNEW each other before June 1994, who would suddenly, out of a deep blue sky, say to themselves --- "You know, guys, we don't know each other at all...we just met this second....but how's about we all go over to OJ's house and try to get that Son-of-a-bitch convicted of these two murders? How 'bout it? You with me? Sure...we could all die in the gas chamber if caught...but, what the hay! It's worth it to see if we can get the mo-fo to take the rap. Even though, of course, we've always held Mr. Simpson in high regard....But, well, let's get him!"

Same exact logic applies in the "Ruth Paine was an accomplice" silliness.

(I better not get started on the Simpson case....High blood pressure already. .... But the similarities, to me, between many aspects of the OJ case and the JFK assassination are startling in clarity.......Conspiracies all over the place, even though there's not one scrap of physical evidence to back them up, along with ALL the evidence pointing toward one single killer.)

davidvp

"Suggest" being the operative word there. Nothing, of course, to "verify" any of the supposition. But...don't let that get in your way of believing in everything along lines of conspiracy that's "suggested" to you. Wait another few days, and another suggested CT will crawl out of the assassination woodwork. (And there'll be somebody, no doubt, right there to receive it with open arms I'm sure. .... Al Gore was behind it you say? Because Kennedy had plans to take credit HIMSELF for creating the Internet decades later? OK...sounds reasonable. )

Believe me, I won't.

davidvp

Amen.
I believe you've hit a nail on its very head there.

Take the supposed "other face" seen in a photograph taken of the sixth floor of the TSBD Building. Or the famed Moorman photo, which to many shows multiple "mysterious figures" behind the fence on the Grassy Knoll.

Now...you're honestly gonna tell me, when we BLOW UP these already extremely poor, grainy photographs 100 times their original size (or more!), that we're actually going to be able to make out anything CLOSE to resembling a human shape? If anything, these images are going to be MANY times worse when blown up to such immense proportions.

Now, you can color in assassins all day long if you wish. It still doesn't make them any more "real", IMO.

Try it yourself.....with any grainy, out-of-focus picture. You could probably draw in pictures of the blurry background resembling Abraham Lincoln, The Wright Brothers, and Homer Simpson if you were so inclined.

And yet....thousands of man-hours and many dollars have been spent by researchers messing with that Mary Moorman photo, which, if you've seen it, is in horrible shape quality-wise (esp. the BACKGROUND, where these "assassins" supposedly lurk). Hilarious.

davidvp

The Moorman picture I spoke of.....
(And this is supposed to be an "enhanced" copy. See any killers?? ) ............

movielib

Bump to remind people that this two hour show will air tomorrow at 9:00pm EST/8:00pm CST.

Also, tonight on CourtTV, at 9:00pm EST/8:00pm CST, there is a one hour show, The JFK Assassination: Investigation Reopened, which reportedly supports the "Oswald did it alone" theory.

rennervision

Suddenly I'm reminded of Dana Carvey's stand-up routine: "Hey, we're framing OJ - you in?"

HistoryProf

Couldn't find a smaller one eh? How about this image that was RIGHT NEXT to the one you linked



Interesting site too....funny you should be linking to it though, seeing as how it offers plenty to debunk your beloved Warren Commission.

Spooky

God, those images are so fuzzy, they could be ANYTHING! It's like that face on Mars. Take a picture of a mountain range, a cloudy sky or a GRASSY KNOLL, and you're bound to find anything in there that you want to see.

And no, the fact that most Americans believe Oswald didn't act alone doesn't sway my opinion that he did. Most Americans also believe that Iraq was involved in the 9/11 attacks.

Read Gerald Posner's CASE CLOSED for a well-resarched look at the Kennedy assassination.

shanester

Oliver Stone IS the only one who had the guts to take it like it is..His movie is more believeable then any BS that's been told by the government

BizRodian

Maybe it's kind of how people like to blame Saddam for the 9/11 attacks. It's hard to belive it happened, so they create a a more belivable stroy, even if that more belivable story is picking one guy you knew about before 9/11 who you can understand the reasons for wanting to attack. Or in the case of the JFK thing, a mass conspiracy is easier to belive then the president getting shot by one guy.

movielib

So... Anyone see the show on CourtTV tonight? It concentrated almost exclusively on forensics. It showed how the so-called magic bullet did what it did without defying the laws of physics, it showed how the head shot to Kennedy came from behind and it showed how the House Select Committee and all its experts got the audio tape that supposedly proved a shot from the grassy knoll wrong in 1978.

I'm so looking forward to the ABC show tomorrow.

movielib

Reminder:

If you're going to watch CSI, Will and Grace and Scrubs, Without a Trace and/or ER tonight, that is perfectly understandable. But I urge you all to watch, tape or TiVo the two hour show, Peter Jennings Reporting "The Kennedy Assassination: Beyond Conspiracy" tonight at 9pm EST / 8pm CST.

I know I am an anti-conspiracy theory "nut" on this subject but I think there will be evidence presented in this show that no one will be able to ignore.

Josh-da-man

Christ, movielib, you're more excited about this stupid documentary than I was about getting a date with a girl everyone called "Country Crock" my Freshman year of college.

Called that not only because she spreaded easily, but because of a certain application of butter in "Last Tango In Paris."

bdshort

Watching it now. TONS of background on Oswald, but within the first 15 minutes they showed an animation demonstrating how the "magic bullet" didn't violate any laws of physics, and how the only place it could have come from is the school book depository.

Hope they talk about other conspiracy "smoking guns" later in the show.

Brian

whotony

it's been on for an hour an still nothing that hasn't been told before.

the computer sim of the assassination was interesting though.

movielib

I suppose I'm so excited about the show because (a) 70%+ of the American public believes in a conspiracy although the myriad conspiracy theories are all full of more holes than that Disney movie and (b) because more than a few people think I am nuts for believing what I believe about it and are not shy about telling me. I admit that on a personal level, that annoys me.

If it weren't for these factors it would probably not be any more than just interesting to me.