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24 3/25/03 11pm-12am

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24 3/25/03 11pm-12am

Old 03-26-03, 08:49 AM
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Given how good this season has been in general, I'm willing to forgive this one lame episode as long as they can bring back the intelligence.

I agree with leepyswtr - how can Palmer start a full scale invasion hours after the bomb goes off? Forget the sheer stupidity of doing so in the face of a known conspiracy within his administration: it took months and months for us to get sufficient military strength to the Middle East to attack Iraq, and we're to believe that they can do it in, like, 20 minutes?
Old 03-26-03, 09:29 AM
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Echo the comments about the immediate counterstrike. The American people would want an explanation, not blood (at least at first).

So far this year I thought the show has been reasonably believable. But now we have:
1) Cautious David Palmer ready to strike immediately against three countries based upon slim evidence (not to mention that I'm sure in real life the US would confront the leadership of those countries with that evidence)
2) Tony pulling a gun on Jack-- waay overboard. Mason's spirit must already be inhabiting Tony.
3) The transfer of Sayed Alli happening outside-- not in the CTU parking garage
4) The president giving an address at 8am EST and 5am local time-- too early to be seen by most people, too late to stem panic that might develop. If this really happened, the pres or a spokesman would have been on the air within 30 minutes.

The use of the handguns in the episode really got to me. Need some tension? Add a handgun. But it's not real tension, it's artificial.
Old 03-26-03, 10:05 AM
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Originally posted by Bandoman
I agree with leepyswtr - how can Palmer start a full scale invasion hours after the bomb goes off? Forget the sheer stupidity of doing so in the face of a known conspiracy within his administration: it took months and months for us to get sufficient military strength to the Middle East to attack Iraq, and we're to believe that they can do it in, like, 20 minutes?

Actually, the general that's travelling in Air Force One said that it would take 6-8 weeks to build up the sufficient forces for a full scale invasion. However, the same general said that strikes (probably by aircraft) could be done immediately to begin degrading the enemy forces/infrastructure (which isn't surprising since there are usually 1-2 carrier groups in that region anyway, as well as existing airbases ala Saudia Arabia if we have a somewhat mirror universe in the 24 world).

In addition, we have no idea how deep the conspiracy is, and it's looking like this course of action was planned from the beginning.

I agree that Palmer is acting too fast - even he says said so in the episode - but it looks like he's being railroaded into a specific action.
Old 03-26-03, 10:28 AM
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Didn't it also seem that Mike, who is most often quiet and fully in agreement with the president, was just to anxious for the president to get this war rolling asap?

Just a thought.
Old 03-26-03, 10:36 AM
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I believe the transfer took place outside because the CTU garage was blown up. I could be wrong though.

'E
Old 03-26-03, 01:26 PM
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Originally posted by DVD.guy
Didn't it also seem that Mike, who is most often quiet and fully in agreement with the president, was just to anxious for the president to get this war rolling asap?

Just a thought.

Ditto. They've been giving Mike alot of those shifty-eyed close-ups recently :P

Perhaps the duplicitousness of Lady Palmer, Roger Stanton & Eric Rayburn sets up Mike as being a closer confidant to the President more than ever? Still, it'll be interesting how they'll play it out.

I'm actually starting to hope that war DOES end up breaking out by the end of the season, because it'd be an interesting season 3 to see how things played out...
Old 03-26-03, 01:44 PM
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Average episode last night, IMO. Nothing to write home about.
Old 03-26-03, 02:10 PM
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Here we go again, and I had such high hopes for this year. Without echoing the minutia of points laid out here, these guys have NO idea how to make this work for 24 episodes. They cram all the story into the first 12 hours or so and then have to contrive the most inane and rediculous plotlines to fill the rest. It would be such a better show if they took the complication out of it. They are overthinking the concept to death. They THINk they need a thousand arcs to cover every character when all that is needed is a major arc, a couple minor ones and some great supporting characters, guys like Mason who you just enjoy watching and interacting with the main catalysts. Not everyone has to push the story along. Not everyone needs to be in every episode doing something interesting. You would be more drawn in if it was paced slower. The impact of things like the bomb would be more significant and awe inspiring. You wouldn't need the contrivance of a war and a spy and 1233463457344653467 characters who are "in on it" and on and on and on. Just the story of a guy stuck in a bad spot and the people around him reacting to it.


but, then again, this is an idea I have been crafting for years and it kills me that they are doing it wrong.
Old 03-26-03, 02:40 PM
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I don't know, the way things are going I'm sort of liking it more than the bomb plot. The nuke plot was a good idea at the start, but it got sort of stale after we'd see Jack and co chase down people and interrogate them over and over and over. I'm more partial to season 1 where Jack was in the dark about things for a long time trying to slowly get to the truth and his family--which is the way season 2 seems to be going.

The only big problem is the Kim plot. She ruins a otherwise good episode.
Old 03-26-03, 03:46 PM
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Originally posted by jkingfish
They THINk they need a thousand arcs to cover every character when all that is needed is a major arc, a couple minor ones and some great supporting characters, guys like Mason who you just enjoy watching and interacting with the main catalysts. Not everyone has to push the story along. Not everyone needs to be in every episode doing something interesting. You would be more drawn in if it was paced slower.
The thing is that the dynamics of the show necessitate this. You have to give each arc some time "off-camera" while the characters are handling routine/boring tasks and given that the show proceeds in "real-time" you can't simply fast-forward ahead like regular shows. As a result, the whole Kim sub-plot is a necessary evil since they can't focus on Jack, Palmer or CTU the entire time. Let's face it, do we really need to see Palmer discussing the minutae of the upcoming military invasion with the chiefs of staff or Tony interviewing some minor suspect? Without Kim in there the writers would be forced to cram too much into other plot-lines.
Old 03-26-03, 04:21 PM
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nononono, you misunderstand, that is one of my main points, the lack of realism with mundane activity. It takes an average of 4 minutes to drive ANYWHERE in LA on this show. They DO fast-forward real-time events to get back to arcs.

I agree, there HAS to be something going on while main characters are doing these "boring" tasks [driving, eating, taking a leak], but what I am saying is it does not have to be so overloaded. Good writing could make it work. Good writing could go to a typically mundane occurance in, say, Kim's evening and make it interesting while others are occupied. They don't have to sick cougars on her or have her abducted every other hour. They could just as easily have her safe and worrying about her father and creating some fantastic and emotional dialogue which fills you in on backstory and builds these characters and THEn snap to the action once it is ready again.

There are a million ways to craft a complex story like this in a simple way without weighing it down like they are.
Old 03-26-03, 04:28 PM
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Originally posted by Dr. Rosenrosen
Echo the comments about the immediate counterstrike. The American people would want an explanation, not blood (at least at first).
I disagree.

As for the rest of the ep..

I don't have a problem with Tony. He's under a great amount of stress and some people don't handle that well..But I would think that he might take a couple seconds to pause and give Jack a chance [based on Jack's adventures]..but it's not like they're buddies and he's resented Jack's lack of respect for procedure/authority.

Kim, meanwhile, is the same stupid twit she's been since the beginning. Glad to see it's consistent.
Old 03-26-03, 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by jkingfish
I agree, there HAS to be something going on while main characters are doing these "boring" tasks [driving, eating, taking a leak], but what I am saying is it does not have to be so overloaded. Good writing could make it work. Good writing could go to a typically mundane occurance in, say, Kim's evening and make it interesting while others are occupied. They don't have to sick cougars on her or have her abducted every other hour. They could just as easily have her safe and worrying about her father and creating some fantastic and emotional dialogue which fills you in on backstory and builds these characters and THEn snap to the action once it is ready again.
Good point....although I wouldn't be surprised if most of us in here would rather see a bouncy Kim running around with that coat off
Old 03-26-03, 05:09 PM
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Originally posted by Rogue588

I don't have a problem with Tony. He's under a great amount of stress and some people don't handle that well..But I would think that he might take a couple seconds to pause and give Jack a chance [based on Jack's adventures]..but it's not like they're buddies and he's resented Jack's lack of respect for procedure/authority.
Well Jack and Tony WERE at odds last season in the beginning but obviously had bonded some since the end of that season (both having been burned by Nina).

I have to agree that Tony is just stressed out. He didn't ASK for the job after all. Mason hurled it into his lap. I'm sure Tony could be considering Jack's endeavors valid, but he cannot just authorize Jack to do as he pleases on a "hunch". Tony is only covering his ass as the man in charge.

BTW good point about the garage being blown up, Evolution.

Overall, I have to agree this is episode was hardly the ENDGAME tension they've been advertising. Oh well, I expected a need to re-energize the plot. I mean, come on people... THE JUST DETONATED A NUCLEAR BOMB ON U.S. SOIL! Some re-rallying should be expected, no?
Old 03-26-03, 05:49 PM
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Doesn't Palmer have to wait for a U.N. resolution for a possible war against the three countries?

Old 03-26-03, 06:00 PM
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Originally posted by Robert
Doesn't Palmer have to wait for a U.N. resolution for a possible war against the three countries?

No, because this action would be in self defense. The United States had been "attacked" without provocation. The UN has no authority after that.

In response to the comments about how the American public would want diplomacy instead of blood: I also disagree.

After 9/11, if Iraq had publicly said that they were responsible, would the American public want diplomacy? No way.
Old 03-26-03, 06:37 PM
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Originally posted by Deftones


Just when we thought Kim was redeeming herself in the last episode when she used the gun, we get this.
My thoughts too.

"SHOOT HIM! SHOOT HIM YOU MORON!" I don't care if he's an expectant father or what. He just broke in and strangled the employee. For all I would know (in that situation) the pregnant thing is just a ruse.

I also thought he would say he wanted to pay and then the employee would open the register and the guy would shoot him, Kim would somehow escape, and he and the misses would drive off with the money.

Alas, it was not meant to be...
Old 03-26-03, 06:38 PM
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Was it just me or did Jack get back to CTU way to quick. I think it was like 11 minutes form the time the heli picked him up. Hmmm
Old 03-26-03, 07:25 PM
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Originally posted by Dr. Rosenrosen
4) The president giving an address at 8am EST and 5am local time-- too early to be seen by most people, too late to stem panic that might develop. If this really happened, the pres or a spokesman would have been on the air within 30 minutes.
Well don't forget that a nuclear bomb just went off in the country. I think a quick address to the nation would prudent and wise.

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Old 03-26-03, 07:26 PM
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Originally posted by Cardiff Giant
While I agree with you, in fairness isn't this season supposed to take place a few years after last season? I could've sworn it does.
Yes, but I said:

in less than 48 hours of real time
I didn't say 48 hours of consectutive time. It still is a lot of captive time in two day periods.
Old 03-26-03, 07:51 PM
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I found that there were two real holy sh*t moments. Tony pulling the gun on Jack, even though he doesn't agree how he works, that seemed out of character for Tony to do, and Ali getting assasinated by the coral snake member.
What happened in the prieveiw, our news came on instead.
Old 03-26-03, 10:57 PM
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I have a hard time believing that the President of the US would be in such a rush to launch a major invasion of an Arab nation on the basis of some dubious conjecture about a possible link to a terrorist group that had perpetrated an attack on the US.




Having said that, I was also disappointed with this episode. Nothing special, but it did follow an episode that was the high water mark both for this show and, along with the Sopranos finale, for the televison season, IMHO. I hope things pick up in the next episode. Mason, you are already missed.
Random thoughts:
Wouldn't an EMP from the bomb wipe out all electronics in the greater LA area?
Doesn't anyone in the President's inner circle know the name of any countries in the Middle East?
If Kim had shot that "robber" in the Kwik E Mart, wouldn't she be facing another arrest right now and wouldn't you all still be calling her stupid?

Face it : Kim's storylines always suck. Deal with it. Don't expect too much. I'm still hoping that she finds her way into the Valley and gets tricked into shooting a dozen or so porn films, but time is running out now...
Old 03-27-03, 07:33 AM
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I don't know if I would have wanted Kim to shoot the "robber" as much as I would have wanted her to shoot at him (just a warning shot in his general direction would be fine). What pissed me off more was the fact that she let him take the gun! What the heck was that? Here is a guy that has just broken into the store and she just lets him take her weapon? At that point I was just hoping the "robber" would panic and shoot her.
Old 03-27-03, 11:19 AM
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I certainly think the U.S. would strike quickly, but is there any reason to strike immediately? There is little strategic advantage to striking so quickly. Better to develop a better plan (and a better case to present to the public) over the next couple days.

As for the pres's comments, my point is that if a nuke has just gone off a high ranking official should be on the air immediately, not 6 hours later.

Re: the parking garage, I could swear that the docs were treating Paula in the parking garage when the call was made to try to resuscitate her.

And, despite Tony's stress, it really is weird to see him pull a gun in that situation. Lots of bad things can happen when a weapon is pulled; therefore, you should only do it when the possible bad things that could happen are less than the other risks you would face. Tony could have easily just used his body to stop Jack. Until Jack breaks his ankle, of course.
Old 03-27-03, 12:39 PM
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I don't understand why they didn't just have Kim be away at college all year (someone Jack thinks about, but not actually in the show except for a phone call or two.) Trying to give her a major plotline that is always as exciting as her CTU agent dad's is just lame--it made sense in season one, but they're just keeping her on the show now because the writers don't have the heuvos to drop it.

"Three Countries" is lame too (could that sound any more unrealistic and "pc"?

And I agree, it is out of character for President Palmer to be jumping so firmly on the war wagon, especially since Jack has voiced his doubts.



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