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Real Time with Bill Maher (HBO) - Series Discussion Thread

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Real Time with Bill Maher (HBO) - Series Discussion Thread

Old 09-28-12, 03:49 PM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

Originally Posted by Shady12
Well, here is why some consider it MOST dangerous. If you read the holy book of Islam and the hadiths, it ranks highest on the scale of being scary. Like I said, convert, kill, subjugate. There have been polls in middle eastern countries where an insane % of the population believe it's OK to murder in defense of Islam. Heck the punishment for apostasy is death. Even in Britain, the polls show that a high percentage of British Muslims agree with it(I can try and find the figures if you want..this is all from a Pew poll).

The reason why someone wouldn't just believe the Imams is because you simply have to read the text of their holy book. As long as it says the horrible stuff it does, and enough take it literally(why wouldn't you take it literally if you believe?), that's a danger. Not sure why anyone should be tolerant of such a thing. No reason to respect anything that is based in blind belief without evidence. It's intellectual dishonest. You can pick and choose good and bad from the Koran to make a point of it either being evil or good. Problem there IS bad stuff, and millions believe in that bad stuff.

If you are going to take your religion seriously and be a fundamentalist, which, if you're a believer in a religion, seems like a valid way of doing it, then you are going to be dangerous to anyone who isn't Muslim.

The bible has horrible things, and a valid interpretation of it lead to things like the Inquisition.

The difference is we for the most part moved past that and more Christians are moderate(seems wishy washy to me as a non-believer). The reasons are SECULAR. Scientific undestanding, etc, has led the West to do away with most of the barbaric crap in these books. For example you aren't going to burn a witch because your village got sick because we now know that germs cause disease not witchcraft.

In the middle ages, horrible things were done in the name of Christianity. There was no dangerous modern technology though. Which is why in the here and now, Islam is more dangerous than Christianity or Judaism.

Islam is particularly dangerous now because one crazy bastard can affect millions due to there being technology that can destroy civilization.

It's not being poor for the most part who do suicide bombings etc. Most are very well educated. Bin Laden was wealthy, the 9-11 hijackers were guys with PHDs and so on. You can say they weren't true Muslims by a moderate Muslim's standards. But they do have a valid interpretation of the religion based on it's texts.

There are indeed good and bad people of all faiths. Problem is to believe in them is irrational. If they were all harmless and acted with a positive placebo effect it would be fine. That isn't the case though. Religious moderates give cover to the extremists/fundamentalists by giving credence to faiths' validity.
Well said. This could all be resolved if everyone stopped believing.
Old 09-28-12, 08:28 PM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

I'll never understand why so many people need to believe in something.
Old 09-28-12, 09:39 PM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

I can understand the why, it's the how I have a problem with.
Old 09-29-12, 12:55 AM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

Originally Posted by MikahC
Every 1st world Muslim I know is a peaceful person.
That really doesn't mean much. They don't have the political power to impose their religion on others, but most would if they did have that power. And have you asked any of them about Sharia Law and if they would like to impose it here? Polls have shown that most Muslims living in the West would.

They're searching for inner purity and connection with Allah based on the teachings of Muhammad. And ple[a]se, don't tell me how violent the Quran is.
You should read the Quran yourself. It's not a peaceful book at all and Muhammad was more of a violent warlord like Genghis Khan than some sort of peaceful spiritual man. Just try to name another religious leader who lead armies into battle, as Muhammad did. Just try to name another religious leader who is said to have personally beheaded 700 people, as Muhammad is said to have done. The man was violent and his religion is likewise violent at its core.

The bible is just as violent because it was written in primitive and violent times. 1st World Muslims are not out trying to fight holy wars and bring down the U.S.
Yes, the Bible (Old Testament) has a lot of violent in it (although not as much as the Quran and Hadiths). And when the Christian religion was supreme in Europe and had near absolute control of political power, it was very violent and was burning people at the stake and torturing people through Inquisitions. It basically took the Enlightenment to end this. However, whether Islam can have its own "Enlightenment" to also become a relatively benign religion is not as much a sure thing, because the core of the religion is so much more based on violence and warfare than any other major religion in the world, with a central figure who is an awful role model for anyone to try to emulate.

Watch the movie Malcolm X and see what he became once he accepted Islam. (And it's not just the movie... it's in most books written about him as well.)
Malcolm X joined the Nation of Islam. And, despite the name, the Nation of Islam is not the same as Islam. It's an American religion based on a guy in relatively recent history claiming that he's a new prophet, so the Nation of Islam is to Islam a lot like the way Mormonism is related to Christianity and is not at all the same thing. So, whatever anyone thinks of Malcolm X, he is not a good example to use for your argument because he was not actually a Muslim.
Old 09-29-12, 04:05 PM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

Denzel was robbed of that Oscar.
Old 09-29-12, 10:47 PM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

Originally Posted by dhmac
Malcolm X joined the Nation of Islam. And, despite the name, the Nation of Islam is not the same as Islam. It's an American religion based on a guy in relatively recent history claiming that he's a new prophet, so the Nation of Islam is to Islam a lot like the way Mormonism is related to Christianity and is not at all the same thing. So, whatever anyone thinks of Malcolm X, he is not a good example to use for your argument because he was not actually a Muslim.
I think you missed the last reel of the movie.
Old 09-30-12, 12:14 AM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

In the last reel of the movie he becomes a real Muslim?
Old 09-30-12, 12:21 AM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

Originally Posted by dhmac
Malcolm X joined the Nation of Islam. And, despite the name, the Nation of Islam is not the same as Islam.
The NOI is not the same as which kind of Islam? Sunni or Shia?


So, whatever anyone thinks of Malcolm X, he is not a good example to use for your argument because he was not actually a Muslim.
It's like when Catholics and Protestants argue over who is the "real" Christian. You can't differentiate what's a "real" Muslim since it's not based on anything real in the first place. Unless you actually believe in what particular faith and think everything in your holy book is true, and then you'd run into the problem of interpretation.
Old 09-30-12, 05:09 AM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

Originally Posted by PopcornTreeCt
Denzel was robbed of that Oscar.
Denzel got it back for Training Day. The Academy has this weird thing when they know they should have let someone win an Oscar for a film previously, they usually make it up to them the year after by having them win, however the movie they get nominated for never seems like it really should have been nominated in the first place.
Old 09-30-12, 10:32 PM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

Originally Posted by brayzie
The NOI is not the same as which kind of Islam? Sunni or Shia?

It's like when Catholics and Protestants argue over who is the "real" Christian. You can't differentiate what's a "real" Muslim since it's not based on anything real in the first place. Unless you actually believe in what particular faith and think everything in your holy book is true, and then you'd run into the problem of interpretation.
Read up on the history of the Nation of Islam. It's an American religion that claims its founder was a new prophet. If you know anything about Islam then that would not be at all consistent with the Islamic religion (it kinda runs counter to that whole "Muhammad is the last prophet" thing that Muslims, both Sunnis and Shi'ites, believe).
Old 09-30-12, 10:49 PM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

Originally Posted by Evan Meadow
Denzel got it back for Training Day. The Academy has this weird thing when they know they should have let someone win an Oscar for a film previously, they usually make it up to them the year after by having them win, however the movie they get nominated for never seems like it really should have been nominated in the first place.
Agreed. It would be nice if they got it right the first time.
Old 10-01-12, 01:37 AM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

Originally Posted by dhmac
If you know anything about Islam then that would not be at all consistent with the Islamic religion (it kinda runs counter to that whole "Muhammad is the last prophet" thing that Muslims, both Sunnis and Shi'ites, believe).
Don't Sunni Muslims believe there will be a successor to their prophet Mohammad, the Madhi? And the NOI believes that Fard Muhammad was the Madhi?

I was already aware that the NOI was started in America and of the more obvious differences between it and traditional Islam.

I just don't see how the NOI are not real Muslims. Are Catholics not real Christians since they pray to Saints as well as God? Are they going against the 10 Commandments by making art depicting God or Heaven? Engaging in idolatry with crucifixes and statues?
Old 10-01-12, 09:46 AM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

Originally Posted by dhmac
Read up on the history of the Nation of Islam. It's an American religion that claims its founder was a new prophet. If you know anything about Islam then that would not be at all consistent with the Islamic religion (it kinda runs counter to that whole "Muhammad is the last prophet" thing that Muslims, both Sunnis and Shi'ites, believe).
I decided not to do a point by point rebuttal of the comments made in the thread since I had my say and I mostly wanted to read what everyone else had to say in response. But since there's continued discussion of NOI vs Islam, I want to clarify one point. I'm not commenting on whether the NOI is "real" Islam. I'm also not commenting on whether Elijah Muhammad was a prophet and if what he set up follows "true" Islam.

My point is before his pilgrimmage to Mecca, Malcolm X was one type of person, but afterwards he was another. I'd describe the "before" person as closer to a warmonger than the later. There's a reason he was murdered. It's widely believed that he was killed by his own NOI people because of the new direction he wanted to take things in after Mecca. When I read comments focusing on his "white people are devils" comments of the pre-Mecca Malcomn X, it just underlines for me that you're not looking at what happened when he was exposed to Islam outside of the Nation of Islam ("Black Muslims"). And focusing on NOI not being "true Islam" further underlines that you're missing my point about what Islam gave Malcolm (and many other Muslims I've had exposure to).

Just read this and watch this.
Old 10-01-12, 04:05 PM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

Originally Posted by MikahC
When I read comments focusing on his "white people are devils" comments of the pre-Mecca Malcomn X, it just underlines for me that you're not looking at what happened when he was exposed to Islam outside of the Nation of Islam ("Black Muslims"). And focusing on NOI not being "true Islam" further underlines that you're missing my point about what Islam gave Malcolm (and many other Muslims I've had exposure to).
So he had to be exposed to Islam outside of the NOI to realize that white people weren't devils created by the scientist Yakub?
Old 10-04-12, 10:01 AM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

I'm looking forward to seeing what the show has to say about the debates last night. Maybe my memory of the 2008 Democratic primary debates has faded but I couldn't believe how badly Obama did asethetically. It looks like the primary experience of fending off new weekly challengers has turned Our Man Mitt into a lean mean debating machine.
Old 10-04-12, 01:05 PM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

I agree that Romney did better overall in the debate than Obama did but he comes across so fake to me. He basically flip flopped every position he's seemingly ever had likely because that's what the rest of his party wants him to say. Maher basically said as much on his Facebook page last night that he thought Romney overall did better though so I won't be surprised if we hear some Obama criticism. At least in his overall demeanor.
Old 10-06-12, 04:50 AM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

Ok, while I realize Maher made a slight joke about it tonight, can someone explain to me how you can Foley there and not be skeeved out that you're essentially letting a pedophile on TV talk politics.

And for that matter, not remind people exactly of what he did.

And why Kerry Washington actually touched him?
Old 10-06-12, 08:47 AM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

I don't think Washington had anything to fear from Foley.
Old 10-06-12, 11:07 AM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

What does talking politics have to do with his sexual inclinations?

He's gay. He's attracted to young boys (because straight men are never attracted to young girls, right?). He stepped over a line and actually did something about it sending sexually suggestive e-mails to underaged congressional pages. But unliked many Catholic priests, as far as I know he didn't actually have sex with anyone underaged. He certainly wasn't charged or convicted of anything. And quite frankly, he sounds more reasonable to me on many issues than the "pure" in his party. We can say maybe he didn't hurt anyone because he got caught before he had a chance to -- and that'd be a fair question -- but the fact is he didn't hurt anyone.

Wikipedia - Congressional Page Incident
On October 3 Foley's lawyer stated, "Mark Foley has never, ever had inappropriate sexual contact with a minor in his life. He is absolutely, positively not a pedophile."

Maybe Bill thinks he's somewhat reasonable too. Maybe sometimes Bill doesn't like people being tarred and feathered over mistakes.
Old 10-06-12, 12:48 PM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

Originally Posted by Evan Meadow
can someone explain to me how you can Foley there and not be skeeved out that you're essentially letting a pedophile on TV talk politics.
Given that the term "pedophile" means someone who desires to have or has sex with prepubescent children (aka children who have not yet hit puberty) and does not apply to adolescents (aka teenagers) who are past puberty, Mark Foley is not even remotely a pedophile (except in the all too common misunderstanding of what that word actually means. The correct term for his behavior is "ephebophile" which is an older person who likes adolescents in their mid-to-late teens).

Also the age of consent varies across the country, and in Washington D.C. it's 16 years of age, which I think is the youngest age of any of the pages that Foley hit on, so he didn't even break the law then either. True, Mark Foley is a dirty old man who likes teenagers, but he did not actually break any age of consent law with his behavior.

(Sorry to be a bit of a definition nazi on this, but it helps to know what terms actually mean.)
Old 10-06-12, 01:23 PM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

Good show last night. For those that say that Maher always takes the Democrat's side he really didn't last night. He was pretty straight forward with his criticisms of Obama from the first debate, which in my opinion was deserved (as a guy who likes and will vote for Obama). Have to say the opening interview with Frank Luntz was pretty entertaining even though I disagreed with a lot of what he said. The panel was pretty interesting too I thought last night.
Old 10-06-12, 03:46 PM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

I'm really looking forward to next week's show, which includes Ben Affleck and Ann Coulter. I just hope both of them are on the panel.
Old 10-06-12, 04:43 PM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

She trying to hawk her new book so she might just be the interviewee.
Old 10-06-12, 08:05 PM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

Originally Posted by MikahC
What does talking politics have to do with his sexual inclinations?

He's gay. He's attracted to young boys (because straight men are never attracted to young girls, right?). He stepped over a line and actually did something about it sending sexually suggestive e-mails to underaged congressional pages. But unliked many Catholic priests, as far as I know he didn't actually have sex with anyone underaged. He certainly wasn't charged or convicted of anything. And quite frankly, he sounds more reasonable to me on many issues than the "pure" in his party. We can say maybe he didn't hurt anyone because he got caught before he had a chance to -- and that'd be a fair question -- but the fact is he didn't hurt anyone.

Wikipedia - Congressional Page Incident
On October 3 Foley's lawyer stated, "Mark Foley has never, ever had inappropriate sexual contact with a minor in his life. He is absolutely, positively not a pedophile."

Maybe Bill thinks he's somewhat reasonable too. Maybe sometimes Bill doesn't like people being tarred and feathered over mistakes.
Obviously Bill thinks he's more reasonable or he wouldn't have had him there.

Though I wouldn't have used the lawyer quote. Lawyers do lie about their clients whenever they're on the defense.

I don't know, I'm far from a fan of anyone who when they get caught doing something inappropriate such as that just going "He's gay, he was abused, he's going into rehab, pity him" type stuff.

But the fact that he was there certainly means more people have a better sense of his life then and now then I do.
Old 10-06-12, 08:07 PM
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Re: Real Time with Bill Maher (2012)

Originally Posted by dhmac
Given that the term "pedophile" means someone who desires to have or has sex with prepubescent children (aka children who have not yet hit puberty) and does not apply to adolescents (aka teenagers) who are past puberty, Mark Foley is not even remotely a pedophile (except in the all too common misunderstanding of what that word actually means. The correct term for his behavior is "ephebophile" which is an older person who likes adolescents in their mid-to-late teens).

Also the age of consent varies across the country, and in Washington D.C. it's 16 years of age, which I think is the youngest age of any of the pages that Foley hit on, so he didn't even break the law then either. True, Mark Foley is a dirty old man who likes teenagers, but he did not actually break any age of consent law with his behavior.

(Sorry to be a bit of a definition nazi on this, but it helps to know what terms actually mean.)
Believe me I get what you're saying but under 18 is still under 18, age of consent laws be damned. (At least for people in Foley's age bracket. Or mine for that matter.)

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