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Buffy 11-13-01

Old 11-13-01, 07:49 PM
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Buffy 11-13-01

I find this episode quite innovative, a clever way to explain Giles and Anya's kiss to say the least. Looks like Willow isn't going to forget she's gay.
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Old 11-13-01, 07:53 PM
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Willow's gay?!!! Why didn't anyone tell me?! All this time I just thought she was really friendly.........
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Old 11-13-01, 08:04 PM
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Sappy song to end with IMO. But overall an extremely effective end to a great episode. Interesting that Buffy and Spike are now together, and Willow and Tara are splitsville.
The real tragedy of this situation is that they could have all been happy in their new lives. When they all came back you could see the despair in all of them as their harsh reality returned. Seems like it's time for the Scooby gang to fall from grace.
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Old 11-13-01, 08:16 PM
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Was that Michelle Branch doing the song at the end?

Anyway I thought it was a so-so episode. I would have much rather it have been a serious episode dealing with the serious issues but I guess it was good for what it was. The episode itself seemed a bit rushed and thrown together.

Some good humor though...Randy

Definitely looks like Willow is going to the dark side.
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Old 11-13-01, 10:36 PM
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Originally posted by palebluedot


Definitely looks like Willow is going to the dark side.

Yep. I say look for her "heel" turn sometime in February with a duel between her and Buffy to occur sometime in the Spring. While I do not know for certain, from reading the credits it seems like Allyson Hannigan is billed as a lesser character because it says : "and Alysson Hannigan as.Willow." She might reduce her role once she turns, and then she might wind up turning so evil she is beyond redemption, thus necessitating the death of her character and Allyson leacing the show.
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Old 11-13-01, 11:46 PM
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Originally posted by Dr. DVD



Yep. I say look for her "heel" turn sometime in February with a duel between her and Buffy to occur sometime in the Spring. While I do not know for certain, from reading the credits it seems like Allyson Hannigan is billed as a lesser character because it says : "and Alysson Hannigan as.Willow." She might reduce her role once she turns, and then she might wind up turning so evil she is beyond redemption, thus necessitating the death of her character and Allyson leacing the show.
I thought the credits always said "and Alysson Hannigan as Willow" but I could be wrong(I probably am).

Has there been any indication from Whedon that he wants to start to wrap the show up? Or is he planning to ride it out, because it just wouldn't be the same without Willow.
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Old 11-14-01, 12:04 AM
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Alysson Hannigan is on a contract. She isn't leaving, I read somewhere Joss Whedon assured people that.
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Old 11-14-01, 12:12 AM
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Originally posted by palebluedot
Has there been any indication from Whedon that he wants to start to wrap the show up? Or is he planning to ride it out, because it just wouldn't be the same without Willow.
Right now, Alyson Hannigan is 27, Nicholas Brendonn is 30, and Sarah Michelle Gellar is 24. How long do you except it run? Four more years?

In four years Alyson will be 31, Nicholas will be 34, and SMG will be 28!

You really except these actors to continue to play 20, 21 year olds for 4, 5 more years? Their age is really really showing.

I really want to know whats going to happen to ANGEL. Charisma Carpenter was born in 1970! She is damn 31 years old right now. She really think she can pull off a 20 year old?
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Old 11-14-01, 02:15 AM
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Originally posted by palebluedot
I thought the credits always said "and Alysson Hannigan as Willow" but I could be wrong(I probably am).

Has there been any indication from Whedon that he wants to start to wrap the show up? Or is he planning to ride it out, because it just wouldn't be the same without Willow.
No, the title credits for the first five seasons had Anthony Stewart Head as the final actor.

The show is contracted for two seasons on UPN. After that, who knows?
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Old 11-14-01, 02:41 AM
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Being listed as "and" in the credits isn't a lessening of importance, but an increase. She's the biggest star on the show, really, with the exception of possibly SMG.
Anthony Head was always listed as the "and" because he was probably the most well-known when the show began.
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Old 11-14-01, 08:03 AM
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I think Allyson's new billing was probably in the contract to give her a boost in her stature on the show, just as ASH was given that billing when he was a regular.

I knew Amber Benson's "Tara" was going away from the start because she didn't make it into the cast credits this season, even though she was Willow's lesbian lover, and when she got the "Amber Benson as Tara" billing after the commercials after the cast billing segment, I knew she wasn't going to stick around for the entire season. This was the same for ASH as he got the "Special Guest Star ASH as Giles" billing, which means he was a part timer but is appreciated for his role in the show.

I thought last night's show was a nice way to shine the light on the true nature of everybody's character without all the baggage of their relationships.

Loved the bunny spell from Anya and Giles. I wonder how much of that was the Ripper coming out of Giles?

But I was sad in the way Giles was sent on into the sunset, he just got on the plane and we didn't get to see a fond farewell between him and Buffy.

Dawn's reaction of Tara leaving Willow was a nice touch, it highlighted that relationship break-up don't just affect the principal parties involved, but also the friends/family that add to their social worth. Willow's sadness will definitely start some nasty witchcraft born of pain and suffering.

Buffy and Spike just don't do it for me as a couple, but I know they'll keep exploring it and play it for all it's worth. But I did find Spike rather humorous as "Randy".

Anyone know the relevance of Buffy choosing "Joan" for has name? Other than the "Joan of Arc" reference?
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Old 11-14-01, 08:26 AM
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Get your flame throwers out, kiddiesÖ

Iím gonna go out on a limb here and say that this was the worst most confused episode ever.

First, a Loan Shark?? Was this a rejected idea from The Chronicle?

The comedy was great. I especially liked Spike dressed as Beaver Cleaver. Randy, indeed (). Iím confused about Anyaís thing with bunnies -- is this something fairly new, or has she always had a problem with them? (I remember the time she was dressed in the bunny suit and said something about them. But other references...?)

I question having two comedy episodes back-to-back.

But the end, what a letdown. Throwing in the song to provide some kind of dramatic change to the tone of the ep was a cheat, IMO, and didnít work for me at all. After having a good laugh through most of it, all of a sudden Iím expected to downshift and give a ratís arse about Gilesí leaving and the Willow/Tara split?

If I had popcorn, I would have been throwing it at the screen.
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Old 11-14-01, 08:39 AM
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Re: Get your flame throwers out, kiddiesÖ

Originally posted by Wizdar
Iím gonna go out on a limb here and say that this was the worst most confused episode ever.

First, a Loan Shark?? Was this a rejected idea from The Chronicle?

The comedy was great. I especially liked Spike dressed as Beaver Cleaver. Randy, indeed (). Iím confused about Anyaís thing with bunnies -- is this something fairly new, or has she always had a problem with them? (I remember the time she was dressed in the bunny suit and said something about them. But other references...?)

I question having two comedy episodes back-to-back.

But the end, what a letdown. Throwing in the song to provide some kind of dramatic change to the tone of the ep was a cheat, IMO, and didnít work for me at all. After having a good laugh through most of it, all of a sudden Iím expected to downshift and give a ratís arse about Gilesí leaving and the Willow/Tara split?

If I had popcorn, I would have been throwing it at the screen.
I agree with your assesment of the episode, it had it's good points but it was just too rushed.

Yes Anya hates bunnies, she thinks they are evil. When they went to the Halloween party(season 4) at the frat house she dressed as a bunny because it was the scariest thing she could find.
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Old 11-14-01, 09:13 AM
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Re: Re: Get your flame throwers out, kiddiesÖ

Originally posted by palebluedot
Yes Anya hates bunnies, she thinks they are evil. When they went to the Halloween party(season 4) at the frat house she dressed as a bunny because it was the scariest thing she could find.
I remember that, but I thought she was just being a twit.
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Old 11-14-01, 09:30 AM
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Originally posted by Snake Plissken
You really except these actors to continue to play 20, 21 year olds for 4, 5 more years? Their age is really really showing.
A) No one said 4, 5 more years ... just that she'd likely stay until the end of the show, which for now is likely to be next season.

B) Um ... they age on the show. I find a 28 year old playing a 24 year old much more convincing than a 21 year old playing 17 anyway.

C) Carpenter is not playing an "age" anymore. You can put the numbers together and figure out that the character is a certain age from the Buffy years, but she's not playing to that character. She's not in college, but running a business. She's not running around doing "kid stuff" ... her role is very mature on the show. Sure, we can do the math and figure out her age, but there's no need when the actress fits the character so perfectly.

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Old 11-14-01, 09:36 AM
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Re: Get your flame throwers out, kiddiesÖ

Originally posted by Wizdar
Iím gonna go out on a limb here and say that this was the worst most confused episode ever.

Are you crazy? Let me answer that with an emphatic "no!" I too found this episode seriously lacking. I enjoyed it, sure ... I'd enjoy these characters sitting on the toilet for 60 minutes, but I felt very cheated. They set up so much in the last episode, and they gave in to what was little more than filler.

First, a Loan Shark?? Was this a rejected idea from The Chronicle?

Yes.

The comedy was great. I especially liked Spike dressed as Beaver Cleaver. Randy, indeed (). Iím confused about Anyaís thing with bunnies -- is this something fairly new, or has she always had a problem with them? (I remember the time she was dressed in the bunny suit and said something about them. But other references...?)

The comedy was very funny, and I do love all the bunny stuff with Anya.

But the end, what a letdown. Throwing in the song to provide some kind of dramatic change to the tone of the ep was a cheat, IMO, and didnít work for me at all. After having a good laugh through most of it, all of a sudden Iím expected to downshift and give a ratís arse about Gilesí leaving and the Willow/Tara split?

Laugh ... laugh ... laugh ... thoughtful discus-nevermind laugh ... laugh ... laugh ... oh yeah, Tara and Giles are leaving ... song.

Yeah, it was funny ... but it was ill-timed. 'Buffy' is a better show than this.

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Old 11-14-01, 10:01 AM
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Originally posted by das Monkey
Are you crazy? Let me answer that with an emphatic "no!" I too found this episode seriously lacking. I enjoyed it, sure ... I'd enjoy these characters sitting on the toilet for 60 minutes [], but I felt very cheated. They set up so much in the last episode, and they gave in to what was little more than filler.
So, ummm, are you agreeing with me?

'Buffy' is a better show than this.
Word!



I'm wondering: does Joss have any say in the content of the promos? That shot of Giles & Anya locking lips in the promo last week was a rip-off (for want of a better term). I don't need a contrived tease to get me to want to watch the next show, but stuff like this could certainly piss me off to the point of having to make a decision about watching in the future.
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Old 11-14-01, 10:56 AM
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Re: Re: Get your flame throwers out, kiddiesÖ

Loan Shark: Stupid

The Comedy: Totally hilarious. I'm not sure I've ever laughed out loud that much during one episode of any show.

The Ending: Sappy, yes, but the change in town didn't bother me.

It's strange to me how many people are saying "yes it was funny but this wasn't the time for a comedy episode." In the past we've largely seen comedy episodes used to break up long arcs of mostly serious, plot advancing shows. But now Joss & Co. are experimenting with mixing it all together and the way it affects the flow of the whole series really works for me.

Why should the tone of one episode remain consistent throughout? As with in the musical, some very funny stuff was happening on screen but there were some really serious plot points involved. The musical started out funny and got progressively more serious as more important secrets were revealed. This time the comedy was sandwiched between serious events. To me, having it all mixed together plays better as a series than having everyone all grim for 3 episodes, go all goofy for comic relief for an entire show, then go back to the grim. Keep in mind that a lot of the stuff we're laughing at is not at all funny to them. They're learning from it and affected by it and it will be reflected in their future actions.

I also don't understand the comments saying the episode looked "rushed" and "thrown together." How so?

But I was sad in the way Giles was sent on into the sunset, he just got on the plane and we didn't get to see a fond farewell between him and Buffy.

Sad, yes, but I would've been annoyed if there *had* been a fond farewell. She's not getting over her perceived abandonment any time soon. Beyond the monsters and humor and such, a big reason I like this show as much as I do is that nothing gets thrown in from left field, as far as the main characters' actions and reactions. Case in point: last week's trailer featuring the Giles/Anya kiss. Some people expressed surprise, saying they were going to be upset if there was some secret romance there or something. I wondered what bizare events would put them in that situation, feeling fairly certain there was no *real* emotion there. (Either way, a great clip for a trailer -- we *all* wanted to see what happened!)

I was going to rattle on for another paragraph or two about the show not panding to audience desires or expectations and instead staying true to itself and its creator's vision but I'll shut up now. :-)
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Old 11-14-01, 10:56 AM
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Originally posted by Wizdar
So, ummm, are you agreeing with me?
I guess ... I was answering my own question 'are you crazy?' with the response 'no', directly implying that your 'going out on a limb' was not a crazy manuever ... or at least, if it is crazy, then I'm just as crazy as you are.

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Old 11-14-01, 11:11 AM
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How old is Emma Caufield (Anya)? She looks nice, but also on up there in the years. I never would have guessed Charisma Carpenter to be 31 years old!
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Old 11-14-01, 11:12 AM
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Re: Re: Re: Get your flame throwers out, kiddiesÖ

Originally posted by dfinney
...
I have no problems with the humor. As Xander (Alex) would say, "bring on the funny!" But there just wasn't enough substance for me this week. There's a difference between an episode that's funny and filler. This was just filler. Very few events of actual consequence happened, and those that did happen got lost in the humor. There's also a difference between funny and silly. I love both, but in the appropriate arena. This episode was just silly in so many parts. That's great for a filler episode, or a halloween episode, but so much has happened that needed to be seriously addressed, and it was all pushed aside in favor of sillyness. I don't agree at all that they did a good job mixing the comedy with drama this time. They succeeded flawlessly with the musical but failed in proportion with this episode. It felt like oil and water. There was no harmony (nor was there Drusilla ... thank you, thank you ... don't forget to tip your waitress) in this episode ... the comedy and drama kept their distance and didn't play well with each other.

They can do the tone however they want ... just give me some substance ... most of this episode was throwaway. Still, in no way do I think it was a bad episode ... just ill-timed.

As for the Giles/Anya kiss, that was just pathetic. You talk about how 'Buffy' doesn't pander to the lowest common denominator, and I agree with you. But that promo was just a blatant attempt to get viewers.

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Old 11-14-01, 11:33 AM
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Originally posted by das Monkey
I guess ... I was answering my own question 'are you crazy?' with the response 'no', directly implying that your 'going out on a limb' was not a crazy manuever ... or at least, if it is crazy, then I'm just as crazy as you are.

das
Gotcha. This is just a case of, "I know you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."


"...a blatant attempt to get viewers." If that's the intent, why didn't I see any more promos with that shot in it? [/rhetorical question] I think that's a knee-jerk reaction, but I can't think of a better reason for it either. Other than whoever puts these promos together has absolutely no clue. If they really wanted me to await the next episode with bated breath, the shot of Anya changing the book into a bunny would do it for me.
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Old 11-14-01, 11:38 AM
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On Anya and bunnies: Yeah, it's been hinted at since she started regularly on the show that she's got a problem with bunnies. I believe it started with the costume she wore and then after that there was the occasional dropped line that mostly went unnoticed. Now they seem to be having something in ever episode about it, and it's becoming more blatant so I hope this means that they're going to address it at some point in the future. I'm guessing bunnies really are evil. Anya's usually not wrong about things like that!

On aging: I wouldn't try to hold them to what their ages 'should be' in show time. Since they've been out of high school they seem to have leapt to a mid to early 20's age. This kind of thing happens in TV pretty often, not really a big deal. Charisma Carpenter was moved to Angel because she started showing her age, and as someone else mentioned, she's not really playing a 20 year old now. I'd say the same goes for everyone. In daytime soap operas a 14 year old can go away to summer camp and come back as a 25 year old man when it's more convenient.

On Joan: In an old episode when Buffy was complaining about her lot in life she was whining about why did she have to be Buffy the vampire slayer, why couldn't she just be plain old Joan, with all the boringness and mundane qualities that possessed. So, it was a nice touch that was brought back to show the choosing of the regular over the extraordinary.

On the show: I liked it. It was good. I didn't like the loan shark, but then you can't have everything. Yes, there was humor there, but there was also drama and intrigue. I thought it mixed well.

The pairings were great, and I especially loved the father and son bit between Giles and Spike. That was pretty good. I liked the problem of them putting their lives together from clues they find around them.

To me, this episode ran through all the things a good show should. It started humorously, moved into suspense/intrigue as they became the hunted, and the right into the heavy drama when they got their memories back.

The ending was done very well, also. Back when they started the show they tried to have a new band at the Bronze every week with a new song. That wasn't convenient to the storyline, but I'm glad whenever they bring that touch back and I thought it was effective music for the dramatic ending.
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Old 11-14-01, 11:54 AM
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I reiterate my question...Was that Michelle Branch singing the song at the end?
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Old 11-14-01, 12:05 PM
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PBD, yes, I believe that was Michelle Branch.

Just my reaction to my rumination of this series:

Okay, so I'm still finding out all the nuances of Buffy TVS via the FX episodes, and what comes to mind is that this is one of those shows that has a marvelous lead actor with a great supporting cast, and this show can go in so many directions, and yet still pull off most of these directions with aplomb and dignity. I am astounded by the concepts and execution of story ideas from this show. To just say, as a series, it rocks, seriously undermines its greatness.

Color me converted.

It's truly hard to get across the high quality of this show to non-believers who haven't seen the show, but I've manage to hook one guy in my office (had him watch Buffy the Musical last week, and today he comes into the office and confessed that he also watched UPN Buffy last night and enjoyed the hell out of it) on the current season (he doesn't have the time for the rest of the FX Buffy's. I asked him why he like last night's episode, and he just said that he enjoyed everything about the show (humor/pathos/action all rolled up into one).
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