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Buffy 11-13-01

Old 11-14-01, 09:23 PM
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Re: Maybe they're skipping the big bad this year

Originally posted by MarkHoltz
Maybe the producers decided to skip the "big bad" enemy this year. Take a look at the past five seasons:

1. The Master
2. Spike, Drusilla, and, in the second Half, Angelis
3. The Mayor
4. Secret Government Project
5. Glory The God

How the heck are you going to top that? Just have some internal changes.
Do you think Evil Willow will be the big bad enemy this year?
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Old 11-15-01, 12:02 AM
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Who is this Amy that is the rat? I saw her transformed briefly in one episode. How long has she been a rat?
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Old 11-15-01, 01:04 AM
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Re: Re: Maybe they're skipping the big bad this year

Originally posted by khieng
Do you think Evil Willow will be the big bad enemy this year?
Who knows in the Whedonverse. Unlike another long-running series, the actions in one episodes have consequences in future episodes. Willow had gone from computer nerd dabling in magic to a powerful witch.
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Old 11-15-01, 01:17 AM
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Originally posted by Dr. DVD
Who is this Amy that is the rat? I saw her transformed briefly in one episode. How long has she been a rat?
Everything You Ever Wanted To Know About Amy (And Then Some)

Amy Madison first appeared in Season 1, in the episode The Witch. Her mom had performed some bad body-swap magic, and was using Amy's body to get on the cheerleading squad. Buffy & Co. to the rescue, giving Amy her body back (Amy's mom ended up trapped in the cheerleading trophy she'd won as a teen).

We next see Amy in Season 2 "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered". Cordelia's dumped Xander, and when he catches Amy using magic to get out of homework, he blackmails her. He doesn't tell, she casts a love spell on Cordelia. It all goes horribly, horribly wrong, and at one point Amy turns Buffy into a rat. Everything gets worked out.

Season 3, "Gingerbread". Joyce forms an anti-occult group, and Willow, Amy, and Buffy end up tied to stakes about to be burned for their crimes. Amy turns herself into a rat and scurries off. Only problem is, nobody knows the reversal spell. So, Willow takes Amy home and keeps her in a cage while working on ways to derat her.

Season 4, "Something Blue". Willow, pissed and hurt after Oz leaves, casts a 'will be done' spell. An offhand comment derats Amy, but nobody notices, and a few seconds later our gal is reratted. She once again drops into obscurity, and nothing is seen of her at all during season 5.
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Old 11-15-01, 04:44 AM
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knew Amber Benson's "Tara" was going away from the start because she didn't make it into the cast credits this season, even though she was Willow's lesbian lover, and when she got the "Amber Benson as Tara" billing after the commercials after the cast billing segment, I knew she wasn't going to stick around for the entire season. This was the same for ASH as he got the "Special Guest Star ASH as Giles" billing, which means he was a part timer but is appreciated for his role in the show.
I heard she was offered a title role, but her first love is not acting, and so she turned it down...

This was pretty much like one of those fairly mediocre season 2 or 3 episodes like say, Revelations. The main plot isn't steller, but the B storys are well done.

I can't say I loved this episode though, just like I can't say I loved Revelations.

I'll start with the good... there was humor, and a lot was funny. Randy was great.. I loved all that stuff. Very funny. Giles leaving is also a good story arc, but I guess that's over. The ties to Restless are great here. Giles and Spike is ripped right out of that. Giles is leaving, Spike is now Buffy's support. The Spike thinking he was a vampire with a soul was great, and telling of his subconscence desire to BE Angel. The Tara/Willow stuff is actually fasinating for the first time in ages... and wow... we have a song playing, oh my god. This used to be a big part of season's 2-3 and they only did it a handful of times in 4 and 5.

For Tara/Willow, this is good. Yeah, I thought they were a cute couple too, but this has passed, and I have generally grown sick of them. To be quite honest, I hope Oz comes back and Willow and Tara are through. No simple reset button though, Oz would have to come to terms with Willow's admiting that she's either attracted to both men and women, or just women and she only went out with Oz and had her Xander crush because it was the right thing to do. I think it would be the former. To be honest, I always liked the idea that Willow never was gay or bisexual, but that she was just so in love with Tara the person that it didn't matter what gener she was.... but I guess all the referances to her being attracted to women (in this episode and others) can't be erased. I know Oz wont be coming back but oh well. I think I'm kind of alone in thinking that Willow and Tara should stay apart... but I think it would be best if they did. Have Tara as a reoccuring character perhaps... maybe in the same way that Jenny was? I like Tara, but just not with Willow.

Let me get onto the bad of this episode....

We'll start from the begining. What the **** is with this "monster" of the week? maybe monster of the weekday afternoon, next time on power rangers! the Snake from last season can now go home, we have a new champion. And he wants kittens?? I think I was too quick on my praise of the joke being funny. I'll rephrase... it was funny when it was a room full of loser demons in a shoddy bar. Like how a room full of loser humans in a shoddy bar might gamble with beers or smokes, as that's all they can bet. In the demon world, kittens might be a good alternative as well. But now we have someone who is seemingly a fiarly powerful demon mafia guy who wants them. Sorry, I just don't buy it. Even if kittens are a delacasy or something I don't buy it.

The memory thing.. well.. like other memory episodes like TNG one I can recall, it has it's problems, but I thought this one had a few more than average. First of all, ow it came to be, which I see was mentioned above a little... Willow is stupid enough to LEAVE HER BAG OUT? Well hey Willow, you know.. maybe someone might see your bag of magic forget flowers... oh wait, you could just make them forget that.. never mind.

When we did have them all effected, they could rememebr certain things, but not others. Giles didn't know magic was real... but yet he grew up with it being normal to him. I don't know, I would have thought just personal memorys were lost. Spike knew how to referance Mary Poppins and such. I don't know, the mind is a very strange thing. So I guess I can just write this off as that. Because people do loose their memorys like this, and strange things can and can not be rememebred.

And how stupid as Willow's gay line? maybe it was funny in a remember season 3 kind of way, well that works only if the line makes sense in the context of it's new usage. Like Spike's thinking he had a soul. Even if you don't know about Angel, you could understand what Spike is saying, that he thinks he has a soul and is helping others. Willow's lline pretty much makes no sense.

I'd put Buffy and Spike kissing in the bad list, but really, it's not bad yet. Right now all Buffy is using Spike for is some sexual fun. If it stays like this it's fairly belivable. If it doesn't... Spike is a demon who has no coinscence... you know.. the one who's tried to kill you.. has caused the deaths of countless people... that's the guy. He's not been given a soul, he's had his balls cut off. There is a big difference.

After last week's episode, this was pretty much the best they could do, I suppose. But I still just can't say I loved it is all.
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Old 11-15-01, 10:08 AM
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If Oz were to come back, there's almost no chance it'd be Seth Green reprising the part. I think I read somewhere that Joss said that Seth was simply not available to them anymore due to his movie acting career (makes me wonder what kind of contracts these actors sign so they can be on the show because some of them might be needed on a sporadic "on-call" basis).
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Old 11-15-01, 12:46 PM
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The thing that no one has really touched on, if you remember the conversation between Willow and Tara in the beginning; Willow was more upset that the spell either didn't work, or didn't work right, not that she was manipulating others. She just doesn't seem to get that it was wrong.

Someone of that skill and the fact that she's hiding it, would not have left the bag of flowers there. That was totally lame.

I think the reason why the story went with so much funny, is because you reach a point where you either have to laugh, cry or lose it. They went with laugh. Seemed a bit unbalanced, but overall I liked it. I just expected a more serious episode to start dealing with the serious stuff brought up the week before.

Can't wait to see how this all plays out.
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Old 11-15-01, 01:37 PM
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Originally posted by elektra

Someone of that skill and the fact that she's hiding it, would not have left the bag of flowers there. That was totally lame.
I attribute it to- The Universal Law of Being Bad, you become callous and sloppy...

In other words, "Mr Bond, before I kill you, I will reveal to you my seceret plan in every exact detail and tell you how to thwart it... Then I will leave you alone for a good while, before I return to kill you... Now, please dont try to escape while I'm gone."


Lordy am I enjoying DarkWillow, though. Such a great idea.
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Old 11-15-01, 01:40 PM
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Originally posted by elektra
Someone of that skill and the fact that she's hiding it, would not have left the bag of flowers there. That was totally lame.
Someone mentioned before about addiction. Willow is showing all the signs. Denial of the problem. Making a promise to stop and then sneaking around. Leaving the bag behind is an example that she’s not aware of what she’s doing. With that brief exception where she told Giles that she better not be messed with, she’s still Sweet Willow. Just as with an addiction, she doesn’t see that there’s a problem, but at the same time slips up and doesn’t think a thing about it.

Whether or not this is a “classic” addiction (as with drugs/alcohol), or is a “Dark Force” associated with magic use has yet to be shown, I think. I’m betting they’ll go with the latter, but the former could be an interesting statement.

The girl just wants to party and doesn’t understand why people are bothered by it.
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Old 11-15-01, 01:41 PM
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With you on that one. This is going to be interesting. I can't wait to see how this all turns out.
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Old 11-15-01, 01:44 PM
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Originally posted by Wizdar
Someone mentioned before about addiction.

That was me ...

Whether or not this is a “classic” addiction (as with drugs/alcohol), or is a “Dark Force” associated with magic use has yet to be shown, I think. I’m betting they’ll go with the latter, but the former could be an interesting statement.

... and I'll be rooting for the former. Dark forces are great, but I think it tells an infinitely stronger story as an addiction. Fighting an evil power ... that's easy. Fighting yourself ... now there's a challenge.

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Old 11-15-01, 02:08 PM
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Originally posted by das Monkey
Originally posted by Wizdar
Someone mentioned before about addiction.

That was me ...
What? That was me. Jeez das, trying to take credit for all of my insightful comments now? I think you're the one going down the path of darkness...




Originally posted by renaldow
I don't think Willow is going to go down the path of darkness in the evil sense. From this last episode it seems that she is addicted to her magical powers. So, in that sense, the Willow/Tara thing wasn't all that rushed, IMHO. Anyone who's ever known or lived with an addict can recognize that as exactly what happens, I think.

From the promo next week it looks just like she's going on a bender.
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Old 11-15-01, 02:39 PM
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Originally posted by renaldow
What? That was me. Jeez das, trying to take credit for all of my insightful comments now? I think you're the one going down the path of darkness...
OK ... something is most definitely amiss here. I've been saying this very thing to my friends for weeks, and before now, I would have bet money that I had posted to that effect multiple times on this forum. But a flurry of searches shows that this is most certainly not the case (or I didn't use the word 'addict', but I'm certain I did, because I remember singing that damn 'I'm Not an Addict' song in my head when I typed it ... in fact, I know I typed the phrase "addicted to power"). As this is the only board I post on (regularly), I'm at a loss. I know I typed it. Some days I feel mildly stupid, but today I feel REALLY stupid. Argh! I feel like I've misplaced my car keys!

Grrrr ... in any case, no intent to steal your thunder. I saw your post and was all prepared to point out where I said the same thing like a week ago, but that's obviously not the case, so I'm very sorry. The error was not intended ... I assure you. While I frequently look like an idiot, I rarely do so on purpose.

das

This sh!t's going to haunt me for weeks ...
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Old 11-15-01, 02:57 PM
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Originally posted by das Monkey
OK ... something is most definitely amiss here. I've been saying this very thing to my friends for weeks, and before now, I would have bet money that I had posted to that effect multiple times on this forum. But a flurry of searches shows that this is most certainly not the case (or I didn't use the word 'addict', but I'm certain I did, because I remember singing that damn 'I'm Not an Addict' song in my head when I typed it ... in fact, I know I typed the phrase "addicted to power"). As this is the only board I post on (regularly), I'm at a loss. I know I typed it. Some days I feel mildly stupid, but today I feel REALLY stupid. Argh! I feel like I've misplaced my car keys!

Grrrr ... in any case, no intent to steal your thunder. I saw your post and was all prepared to point out where I said the same thing like a week ago, but that's obviously not the case, so I'm very sorry. The error was not intended ... I assure you. While I frequently look like an idiot, I rarely do so on purpose.

das

This sh!t's going to haunt me for weeks ...


The funny thing is, I could've sworn that you posted a reply to my original with quotes saying something to the effect of 'addiction, yeah I like that' but I couldn't find that either.

I think maybe your posts are going into a blackhole....
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Old 11-15-01, 02:59 PM
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Welcome to ABC's Wide World of Weird.......
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Old 11-15-01, 03:20 PM
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Originally posted by renaldow




The funny thing is, I could've sworn that you posted a reply to my original with quotes saying something to the effect of 'addiction, yeah I like that' but I couldn't find that either.

I think maybe your posts are going into a blackhole....
Well, at least we can count on one thing ... we both like the 'addiction' angle. I'd feel cheated if Joss went with the ... dammit ... even typing this now feels like I've said all this already. I can hear these words in my head like I've said them before. Seems like a few weeks ago. There was a long discussion about Willow being the Big Bad and how that would come about. Someone said something about her being possessed by a demon or something, and I responded that with all the build up (Giles getting so angry with her, etc), I'd feel cheated if they didn't play it as her addiction to the power instead of some silly demon.

OK, I just searched some more and came up empty. I'm giving up hope and conceeding that I'm crazy. Note to self: go straight home and have the door bolted from the outside for the good of all.

das
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Old 11-15-01, 03:48 PM
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Boys! Hugs?

OK. since I started this, mentioning the "bender" gives game, set and match to renaldow. das "I'm typing as fast as I can and don't know what I'm saying half the time and going on 50 hours without sleep" Monkey looses by default.

IF Joss went at it from the social statement angle (which I think would be bloody marvelous) -- has he ever done that? I don't recall there being a real "message" piece before. (Coming from, "Huh? What program is this?" Wizdar, that doesn't mean much.)

It would be real easy to skip the magic as drug angle and go at it as "magic has its price", which I think fits the tone of the show better. And, actually, I think that has already been mentioned several times in the show.



das, nap time!
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Old 11-15-01, 04:08 PM
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Wizdar - I find Joss has lots of social messgaes. High School is hell, he made it literal. If someone beats you, that doesn't mean they love you (Beauty and the Beasts). Just because you're special, doesn't mean you can get away with anything re: Faith thinking killing the deputy mayor was nothing because she's a slayer. I guess it's how he says them.

Note to DAS - I'd advise you to drink heavily, starting now.
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Old 11-15-01, 04:18 PM
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The other question: Faith.

Is she good or bad? I seem to remember seeing in a repeat that she used to fight alongside Buffy and the Scoobs. What happened?
Any Buffy Movie should definitely have a showdown between the two.
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Old 11-15-01, 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by elektra
Wizdar - I find Joss has lots of social messgaes. High School is hell, he made it literal. If someone beats you, that doesn't mean they love you (Beauty and the Beasts). Just because you're special, doesn't mean you can get away with anything re: Faith thinking killing the deputy mayor was nothing because she's a slayer. I guess it's how he says them.
True enough. I suppose what I was looking for was something of a "preaching" nature (don't know how else to put it). You know, a direct "This is your brain on drugs" sort of thing. Those things you mention are underlying messages, IMO.

Everything seems to be handled by inference. Examples: Buffy is hurt/mad about being yanked out of "heaven". Does she weep inconsolably? Does she beat the crap out of Willow? No. She sneaks in her feelings in a forced song. Dawn clearly has feelings about Tara leaving. Does she confront Tara and have a big scene? No. She stomps off. While there's nothing wrong with any of this, there is room for much more powerful dialogue. I think I can say this about the entire series. And, as you mention, maybe it's just Joss' way. But there's no Emmy potential, either.

So, in spite of the possibilities, I predict nothing earth shattering or thought provoking about Jane’s Willow’s addiction. And that’s OK with me.
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Old 11-15-01, 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by Dr. DVD
Is she good or bad? I seem to remember seeing in a repeat that she used to fight alongside Buffy and the Scoobs. What happened?
Faith was in a long-time coma due to her fall at the end of Season Three. She recovered, then went to LA to face Angel. When we last saw her, she was in the California Penal System.
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Old 11-15-01, 07:19 PM
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I'm going to explain the Faith story line, spoilers.. don't read if you don't want to know...

Spoiler:
As you might recall, Faith always had a bit of a problem controling herself. She, by accident killed a man. And went off the handel because of it, she joined with The Mayor, was his right hand man. Killed a bunch of people... basically without care. She was then sent into a coma by Buffy... when she came to a few months later, she continued her way, but started showing some signs of good. Long story short, she turned herself over the LAPD eventually.
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Old 11-15-01, 07:39 PM
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Wizdar - I think the "beating you over the head with the message" is more the Star Trek way of doing things. Joss goes the way of sublety. I also 100% disagree. This show has been and continues to be Emmy material.

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS


Dr DVD - she was pretty bad and is now good. She's in jail "paying for her crimes." There was an amazing pair of angels eps that covered this.
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Old 11-15-01, 11:27 PM
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Just curious - did anyone else happen to read Alyson Hannigan's interview with Playboy?

I'm thinking SHE should have been the one wearing the coat with the name "Randy" inside...

Kal
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Old 11-16-01, 06:23 AM
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Someone asked about Emma Caulfield. From what I've read, she's 28, which puts her in the middle of the age range for the actors on Buffy/Angel. As for Anya the character looking older, she was a demon for hundreds of years, and (correct me if I'm wrong here) it wasn't specified how old she was when she was turned into a vengeance demon.

KrazyKal--What issue was the Alyson interview in?
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